bcarso
Well-known member
That and a Palindrometer* and I is ready to cook!
*http://www.funklogic.com/palindrometer.htm
*http://www.funklogic.com/palindrometer.htm
crazy high rail voltage = better????
- Thread starter buschfsu
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
[quote author="JohnRoberts"]I appreciate the humor but have spent my entire career tilting against such windmills. Back in the '80s I even wrote a column called "Audio Mythology". It seems the old myths are still with us, and new ones keep popping up.
I blame the weak science education of the general public, but audio seems to attract a near religious faction of true believers in such nonsense, and a subindustry to profit from their poor judgement. [/rant]
JR[/quote]
And this is why you start up a company selling $20,000 hi fi toob amps to hipsters in lofts, spending most of the little R&D money on a sculptural design artist/engineer making pretty cases.
Put many scientific symbols on your website, and maybe just a touch of voodoo. Mostly stick to scientific terms tho.
No.
I'm just getting started and I'm getting jaded because soooo many have led me astray myself. This place has been quite refreshing. I'd like to take this time to thank you all.
I've needed a group of salty engineers to mumble under their breath at the marketing department all my life. I'm not kidding.
I blame the weak science education of the general public, but audio seems to attract a near religious faction of true believers in such nonsense, and a subindustry to profit from their poor judgement. [/rant]
JR[/quote]
And this is why you start up a company selling $20,000 hi fi toob amps to hipsters in lofts, spending most of the little R&D money on a sculptural design artist/engineer making pretty cases.
Put many scientific symbols on your website, and maybe just a touch of voodoo. Mostly stick to scientific terms tho.
No.
I'm just getting started and I'm getting jaded because soooo many have led me astray myself. This place has been quite refreshing. I'd like to take this time to thank you all.
I've needed a group of salty engineers to mumble under their breath at the marketing department all my life. I'm not kidding.
Kev
Well-known member
Fun thread
a little knowledge is good
a little more can be dangerous
the guys here are experienced
but we all bring some points of view that are so heavily influenced by our professional and diy lives
there are good lessons that we learn and continually re-apply them
what is Kev on about
Voltage driven is good
Current driven is good
???
don't forget that there is a power transfer
to some extend we have forgotten about power transfer ... except when focusing on transformers and tubes and some speciific parts of a given circuit.
All I am saying is that to focus on just one phenomenon at the expense of others will lead to an incomplete design.
Very generally
to keep increasing a factor will probably lead to diminishing returns
fun thread
I'd like to see a portable digital recorder with mobile phone technology
but
with audiophile 600 volts inside
:grin:
all things need to be taken in context
and with their surrounding components and/or equipment
... and purpose
close at mind
[quote author="dshay"]I've needed a group of salty engineers to mumble under their breath at the marketing department all my life. I'm not kidding.[/quote]
yes
the original inspiration of TT and the sharing of knowledge was the mission of GroupDIY
a little knowledge is good
a little more can be dangerous
the guys here are experienced
but we all bring some points of view that are so heavily influenced by our professional and diy lives
there are good lessons that we learn and continually re-apply them
what is Kev on about
Voltage driven is good
Current driven is good
???
don't forget that there is a power transfer
to some extend we have forgotten about power transfer ... except when focusing on transformers and tubes and some speciific parts of a given circuit.
All I am saying is that to focus on just one phenomenon at the expense of others will lead to an incomplete design.
Very generally
to keep increasing a factor will probably lead to diminishing returns
fun thread
I'd like to see a portable digital recorder with mobile phone technology
but
with audiophile 600 volts inside
:grin:
all things need to be taken in context
and with their surrounding components and/or equipment
... and purpose
close at mind
[quote author="dshay"]I've needed a group of salty engineers to mumble under their breath at the marketing department all my life. I'm not kidding.[/quote]
yes
the original inspiration of TT and the sharing of knowledge was the mission of GroupDIY
Not to reargue this, but keep in mind modern codecs are running down at 5V or 3.3V rails.
Just read in the paper that TI is working on a 0.3V process to save power.
I have seen the future and it is small...
JR
Just read in the paper that TI is working on a 0.3V process to save power.
I have seen the future and it is small...
JR
bcarso
Well-known member
Lately I've been looking at ways to improve signal-to-noise ratios through the use of synthetic cooled terminations as circuit elements. I'm not yet certain, but it seems likely that "merely" (meaning that it is still a lot of work) running things at higher voltages and powers will achieve the same results.
But it's fun to explore the alternatives. I can do this as long as I have enough paying work from time to time.
I've seen the future too, and at least in my reality people start to rediscover good audio, meaning music with significant dynamic range, be it reproduced or live.
But it's fun to explore the alternatives. I can do this as long as I have enough paying work from time to time.
I've seen the future too, and at least in my reality people start to rediscover good audio, meaning music with significant dynamic range, be it reproduced or live.
![Soldering Iron Kit, 120W LED Digital Advanced Solder Iron Soldering Gun kit, 110V Welding Tools, Smart Temperature Control [356℉-932℉], Extra 5pcs Tips, Auto Sleep, Temp Calibration, Orange](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51sFKu9SdeL._SL500_.jpg)
G
Guest
Guest
[quote author="Kev"]
don't forget that there is a power transfer
[/quote]
Thank you for the water on my mill!
:thumb:
don't forget that there is a power transfer
[/quote]
Thank you for the water on my mill!
:thumb:
I'd just be repeating myself so I'm done talking about power transfer, but temperature effects wrt noise are interesting.
I recall looking at this decades ago and concluded at that time it was impractical to get Kelvin temps reduced enough to be significant. Perhaps different now using modern peltier devices? If it isn't proprietary I'd be curious to know more.
Noise is indeed an issue in modern codecs as the digital LSB is already well below the chip's analog noise floor and this situation won't get better as rail voltages drop unless they develop a much quieter process.
While one could argue that there will always be other natural limits to ultimate noise floors we can realize, it's always been a target in professional audio to have 20 dB more dynamic range than program material we must deal with. These days with proliferation of digital audio there is a blurring of lines between what are pro environments and consumer.
My suspicion is that future highest performance A/D will start with something like a 1 bit deltamod at some silly high clock rate that gets decimated down to PCM. This one bit comparitor could be dialed in to deliver high dynamic range (with analog rail voltages) and the rest is math. Albeit math I can't do... :roll:
JR
I recall looking at this decades ago and concluded at that time it was impractical to get Kelvin temps reduced enough to be significant. Perhaps different now using modern peltier devices? If it isn't proprietary I'd be curious to know more.
Noise is indeed an issue in modern codecs as the digital LSB is already well below the chip's analog noise floor and this situation won't get better as rail voltages drop unless they develop a much quieter process.
While one could argue that there will always be other natural limits to ultimate noise floors we can realize, it's always been a target in professional audio to have 20 dB more dynamic range than program material we must deal with. These days with proliferation of digital audio there is a blurring of lines between what are pro environments and consumer.
My suspicion is that future highest performance A/D will start with something like a 1 bit deltamod at some silly high clock rate that gets decimated down to PCM. This one bit comparitor could be dialed in to deliver high dynamic range (with analog rail voltages) and the rest is math. Albeit math I can't do... :roll:
JR
bcarso
Well-known member
[quote author="JohnRoberts"]...
I recall looking at this decades ago and concluded at that time it was impractical to get Kelvin temps reduced enough to be significant. Perhaps different now using modern peltier devices? If it isn't proprietary I'd be curious to know more. ...
JR[/quote]
Not talking about physical cooling, but synthesizing circuit elements that behave like resistors within a range of frequencies, without having as much thermal noise as a resistor of the same value. Someone in here noted that the technique is mentioned way back in Van der Ziel's early Noise (Prentice-Hall 1954), and he in turn references W. S. Percival, Wireless Engineering, Vol.16, 237, 1939. I saw an example of it first, in a book by Arbel, who references a nuclear science detector application by Radeka.
Van der Ziel concludes the short section with an amusing misstatement: "The above examples indicate that it is often possible to construct low-noise impedances. They may be used instead of ordinary impedances in order to lower [sic] the signal to noise ratio" (pg. 283).
I recall looking at this decades ago and concluded at that time it was impractical to get Kelvin temps reduced enough to be significant. Perhaps different now using modern peltier devices? If it isn't proprietary I'd be curious to know more. ...
JR[/quote]
Not talking about physical cooling, but synthesizing circuit elements that behave like resistors within a range of frequencies, without having as much thermal noise as a resistor of the same value. Someone in here noted that the technique is mentioned way back in Van der Ziel's early Noise (Prentice-Hall 1954), and he in turn references W. S. Percival, Wireless Engineering, Vol.16, 237, 1939. I saw an example of it first, in a book by Arbel, who references a nuclear science detector application by Radeka.
Van der Ziel concludes the short section with an amusing misstatement: "The above examples indicate that it is often possible to construct low-noise impedances. They may be used instead of ordinary impedances in order to lower [sic] the signal to noise ratio" (pg. 283).
G
Guest
Guest
[quote author="bcarso"]
Van der Ziel concludes the short section with an amusing misstatement: "The above examples indicate that it is often possible to construct low-noise impedances. They may be used instead of ordinary impedances in order to lower [sic] the signal to noise ratio" (pg. 283).[/quote]Yes, like yesterday searching for a factual data for my the freshest ever design I've found a paper from Helmholtz the most useful, it made me thinking as if in order to design most modern and way ahead things we have to join Freemasons that keep an ancient Wisdom... Amazing... What is a progress then???
Van der Ziel concludes the short section with an amusing misstatement: "The above examples indicate that it is often possible to construct low-noise impedances. They may be used instead of ordinary impedances in order to lower [sic] the signal to noise ratio" (pg. 283).[/quote]Yes, like yesterday searching for a factual data for my the freshest ever design I've found a paper from Helmholtz the most useful, it made me thinking as if in order to design most modern and way ahead things we have to join Freemasons that keep an ancient Wisdom... Amazing... What is a progress then???
Kev
Well-known member
[quote author="JohnRoberts"]...I have seen the future and it is small...
[/quote]
completely agree
the future of mass manufactured electronic components will be small and the SMT will get smaller and the powers will get smaller ... probably through lowering the voltage
things need to be taken in context
Back on page2 PPR gave the hints in his post ... one parameter is not the answer to all things
The manufacturers of that SMT codec have the oportunity to control the manufacturing porocess and make junction point in a different way to those in years past. They can optimise for different objectives and circumstances like 3.3v rails or lower ... There will still be a power transfer inside the chip and even though very small there is still leakages to be deal with and many other parameters.
Wavebourn is just looking towards a fresh way if using an older idea and perhaps applying it in a new way. It's always hard to find a new way with old stuff because there have been so many attempts by others in the past. That's not to say there isn't worthwhile new twist to be found somewhere.
Niche products like true HiFi and recording music will probably always have scope for reapplying old technology and old ideas
....
for as long as the older components and manufacturing techniques can stay with us
therefore there will be scope for business into the future.
This Niche business will not be on the same scale as the SMT manufacturing and so the number of completed products will be vastly different. (
no pun intended )
in years to come the Valve Guitar Amp will be sooo expensive and that newest Codec that is many times better than we are using now will be near free ... and inside every mobile phone.
mmmm
:roll:
but which one is more fun ?
[/quote]
completely agree
the future of mass manufactured electronic components will be small and the SMT will get smaller and the powers will get smaller ... probably through lowering the voltage
things need to be taken in context
Back on page2 PPR gave the hints in his post ... one parameter is not the answer to all things
The manufacturers of that SMT codec have the oportunity to control the manufacturing porocess and make junction point in a different way to those in years past. They can optimise for different objectives and circumstances like 3.3v rails or lower ... There will still be a power transfer inside the chip and even though very small there is still leakages to be deal with and many other parameters.
Wavebourn is just looking towards a fresh way if using an older idea and perhaps applying it in a new way. It's always hard to find a new way with old stuff because there have been so many attempts by others in the past. That's not to say there isn't worthwhile new twist to be found somewhere.
Niche products like true HiFi and recording music will probably always have scope for reapplying old technology and old ideas
....
for as long as the older components and manufacturing techniques can stay with us
therefore there will be scope for business into the future.
This Niche business will not be on the same scale as the SMT manufacturing and so the number of completed products will be vastly different. (
no pun intended )in years to come the Valve Guitar Amp will be sooo expensive and that newest Codec that is many times better than we are using now will be near free ... and inside every mobile phone.
mmmm
:roll:
but which one is more fun ?
[quote author="bcarso"]
Not talking about physical cooling, but synthesizing circuit elements that behave like resistors within a range of frequencies, without having as much thermal noise as a resistor of the same value. Someone in here noted that the technique is mentioned way back in Van der Ziel's early Noise (Prentice-Hall 1954), and he in turn references W. S. Percival, Wireless Engineering, Vol.16, 237, 1939. I saw an example of it first, in a book by Arbel, who references a nuclear science detector application by Radeka.
Van der Ziel concludes the short section with an amusing misstatement: "The above examples indicate that it is often possible to construct low-noise impedances. They may be used instead of ordinary impedances in order to lower [sic] the signal to noise ratio" (pg. 283).[/quote]
While not exactly the same thing, I used a technique in my old current source summing bus structure, where I synthesized current sources using the well known National Application note 5-resistor topology. I scaled down the actual resistor values used so I could get a practical source impedance of several hundreds of Ks with noise levels more like 10s of K. Of course when you do active tricks the gain stage noise is also a factor. I was addressing bus noise gain due to impedance rather than thermal noise from the impedance itself, which in the standard summing amp topology is modest and not much of a concern.
JR
Not talking about physical cooling, but synthesizing circuit elements that behave like resistors within a range of frequencies, without having as much thermal noise as a resistor of the same value. Someone in here noted that the technique is mentioned way back in Van der Ziel's early Noise (Prentice-Hall 1954), and he in turn references W. S. Percival, Wireless Engineering, Vol.16, 237, 1939. I saw an example of it first, in a book by Arbel, who references a nuclear science detector application by Radeka.
Van der Ziel concludes the short section with an amusing misstatement: "The above examples indicate that it is often possible to construct low-noise impedances. They may be used instead of ordinary impedances in order to lower [sic] the signal to noise ratio" (pg. 283).[/quote]
While not exactly the same thing, I used a technique in my old current source summing bus structure, where I synthesized current sources using the well known National Application note 5-resistor topology. I scaled down the actual resistor values used so I could get a practical source impedance of several hundreds of Ks with noise levels more like 10s of K. Of course when you do active tricks the gain stage noise is also a factor. I was addressing bus noise gain due to impedance rather than thermal noise from the impedance itself, which in the standard summing amp topology is modest and not much of a concern.
JR
G
Guest
Guest
[quote author="Kev"][quote author="JohnRoberts"]...I have seen the future and it is small...
[/quote]
completely agree
[/quote]
Completely agree... Some members are shrinking...
[/quote]
completely agree
[/quote]
Completely agree... Some members are shrinking...
They sell pills for that now...
JR
JR
G
Guest
Guest
[quote author="JohnRoberts"]They sell pills for that now...
JR[/quote]
They sell pills for everything now...
Pills to fix effects caused by other pills sold to fix effects caused by pills... recursion...
...but some old farts prefer optimal solutions that would not need any complex means to work well. It looks simpler when you amplifying a power think of voltages for simplicity, but such an approach causes more pills invented, like multiple of types of distortions that need complex means of corrections causing other errors that need corrections instead of using non-linear by definition active elements properly to do right job and be happy.
A linear active element is a nonsense. Period. And we speak about conditions to get better results using them without help of multiple pills.
JR[/quote]
They sell pills for everything now...
Pills to fix effects caused by other pills sold to fix effects caused by pills... recursion...
...but some old farts prefer optimal solutions that would not need any complex means to work well. It looks simpler when you amplifying a power think of voltages for simplicity, but such an approach causes more pills invented, like multiple of types of distortions that need complex means of corrections causing other errors that need corrections instead of using non-linear by definition active elements properly to do right job and be happy.
A linear active element is a nonsense. Period. And we speak about conditions to get better results using them without help of multiple pills.
Kev
Well-known member
[quote author="Wavebourn"]Completely agree... Some members are shrinking...[/quote]
no not shrinking
I've already agreed that for Niche products ... all bets are off and if you come up with a working application of a specific idea
then there will probably be a market
...
:shock:
even if it didn't work but the marketing was right
not to suggest anything you did woudn't work, cos I'm not
often in the past I have advocated higher voltages for all the headroom and signal to noise benifits that it can sometimes bring
:roll:
and
PRR often reminds us that there can be consequences of pushing the parameters too far
heat and leakage ... and other PRR stuff
what phase is that subspace field
just kidding
but for the mainstream mass market the likely hood is that manufacturing will be very small and at lower voltages
and I say again
" where is the fun in that ? "
:sad:
" A linear active element is a nonsense. Period. And we speak about conditions to get better results using them without help of multiple pills. "
I think that is worth a discussion
no not shrinking
I've already agreed that for Niche products ... all bets are off and if you come up with a working application of a specific idea
then there will probably be a market
...
:shock:
even if it didn't work but the marketing was right
not to suggest anything you did woudn't work, cos I'm not
often in the past I have advocated higher voltages for all the headroom and signal to noise benifits that it can sometimes bring
:roll:
and
PRR often reminds us that there can be consequences of pushing the parameters too far
heat and leakage ... and other PRR stuff
what phase is that subspace field
just kidding
but for the mainstream mass market the likely hood is that manufacturing will be very small and at lower voltages
and I say again
" where is the fun in that ? "
:sad:
" A linear active element is a nonsense. Period. And we speak about conditions to get better results using them without help of multiple pills. "
I think that is worth a discussion
buschfsu
Well-known member
looking at the marketing on the new neve 5088 mixer it claims
"When 90 Volts course through discrete op-amp cards, custom transformers & meticulously crafted, “Class A” circuitry designed by the most trusted name in audio: The difference doesn’t just please ears, it turns heads too!"
anyway. i haven't read a compelling reason to use this high a voltage . why would rupert choose this if it were going to increase noise?
"When 90 Volts course through discrete op-amp cards, custom transformers & meticulously crafted, “Class A” circuitry designed by the most trusted name in audio: The difference doesn’t just please ears, it turns heads too!"
anyway. i haven't read a compelling reason to use this high a voltage . why would rupert choose this if it were going to increase noise?
Because you can fool some of the people enough of the time to turn a profit... I though API had already farmed that high rail voltage field till it was barren.
I surely want 90V swing feeding my 3.3V A/D....
JR
I surely want 90V swing feeding my 3.3V A/D....
JR
Winston OBoogie
Well-known member
If your voltage rail is large compared to your signal voltage, and you use appropriate devices, your linearity is better. You need less feedback. Use all the tricks you can to linearize each stage by itself and use less feedback...
I realize I'm probably pissing into the wind here.
I realize I'm probably pissing into the wind here.
FredForssell
Well-known member
Winston O'Boogie said:
No, you are not.
Fred Forssell
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