Deaths from climate change

[JohnRoberts]

We have accepted for years that frequency response charts are cleaned up.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics... There are any number of ways to make response charts appear better. I have performed tasks in both marketing and design engineering so I know enough to be dangerous... I had fun with ad copy writing features that were 100% accurate but sounding too good to be true. Like "this preamp is within 1dB of perfectly noiseless"!

It doesn't bother me, except when it's done by the marketing dept.

been there and done that

As usual with stats, care needs to be taken not to introduce new errors while cleaning up the obvious errors from the data.

do you mean lies?

It's a shame most medical researchers seem very bad at it. Again, I don't mind as long as they are good physicians...

I still mind

There are good methods for visualising data that can help. Still, remaining sceptical is always required in science.

remaining skeptical is always required in life.

It's one thing computers and AI aren't good at.

I have heard anecdotal reports that AI can make sh__ up... not that skeptical.

JR

 

[ruffrecords]

We have accepted for years that frequency response charts are cleaned up. It doesn't bother me, except when it's done by the marketing dept.

As usual with stats, care needs to be taken not to introduce new errors while cleaning up the obvious errors from the data. It's a shame most medical researchers seem very bad at it. Again, I don't mind as long as they are good physicians...

There are good methods for visualising data that can help. Still, remaining sceptical is always required in science. It's one thing computers and AI aren't good at.

All too often today, people fall into the trap of assuming data is information. The two are entirely separate. Back last century, I was called into a very well known UK manufacturer of private mobile radios (PMR) who was having yield problems with its latest product. It was fairly leading edge manufacturing technology for the time with extensive use of SMT. All the separate assemblies passed their individual tests but something like 20% failed final test. They had reams of data gathered from all sections of the production line but it was useless in determining the cause of the failure.

I spent a day on the production line talking to all the operatives at each step in the process and quickly discovered the problem. There was a helical filter that was central to the proper operation of the PMR. There was a procedure for testing and aligning it that was drawn up by the R&D dept. However, the test technicians discovered that some units could not be aligned by following the procedure but by making some adjustments they could get them to pass. It turned out that all the units that had to be aligned this way had been fitted with a wrong value capacitor so although it could be made to pass the test it meant the unit failed final test. As soon as the test technicians were instructed to reject filters that could not be aligned as per the procedure the failure rate plummeted.

Further investigation revealed the test techs thought they knew better than R&D how to align the filters and R&D had never sat down with them to explain why the procedure should be followed to the letter. Production was able to home in on the wrong valued component and identified a faulty batch of mislabeled components.

None of the above information was in the data they gathered.

Cheers

Ian

 

[cyrano]

Yes, Ian, I'm very aware of problems like those. I spent years sifting through (marketing) data to find the missing piece. It turned into a habit of explaining US companies that the EU isn't the USA. Most obviously, there are different languages in the EU. But other things at play too. It's one of the reasons why Belgium is the ideal test market for US and other companies. 3 languages, 3 cultures on a piece of land that's so small you can get to any border within hours.

That's where graphs come in. We used to collect numbers (stock, prices...) from shops. But we also did stuff like street interviews. These ware carried out by students. And there was always one guy who didn't want to go out in the rain, so he faked the results. No matter how hard he tried to give random answers, they always stood out in the graphs, providing you had enough data.

That's why I always refused to draw conclusions from preliminary data. And why you always need a human to look into the bare numbers, before drawing conclusions, even if it's only to fix obvious, glaring wrong conclusions. Like: if 20% of all accidents are caused by drunk drivers, we should get the sober ones to stay home...

 

[altfidelity]

We have entered what I call The Age of Incompetence.

No, YOU have just entered what we call The Age of Being Old.

Blaming it on the young generations is just universal human nature thing. Read this:
25 Quotes in 2,500 Years Proving We Always Blame the Younger Generation

I will probably be the same as you, it's no shame in it.

You can only change how younger generation will perceive you. You can be perceive as "Wise Sensei" or "Old Fart", it's your choice.

EDIT: I changed some words, to be less rude, that was not my intention.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

No, YOU have just entered what we call The Age of Being Old.

I'll assume from your response that you are under 40. Perhaps a good bit younger. Recognition that we "old folks" were once your age and have insight into that experience as well might enlighten you and your thinking. I've seen both good and bad trends develop in my lifetime. Some petered out, some reversed, some left lasting effects (good and bad). It seems apparent that the trend regarding general life competency(or lack thereof) is the bad sort, with bad lasting consequences.

Blaming it on the young generations is just universal human nature thing.

I didn't "blame it on the young generations." Much of it comes down to poor parenting by my generation. Experience comes with age.

Read this:
25 Quotes in 2,500 Years Proving We Always Blame the Younger Generation

Whatever.

I will probably be the same as you, it's no shame in it.

I hope you will and that your future is as good as mine was at your age. But you have a responsibility to impart some of your learning and insight on those who follow you. Some will, naturally, take it as blaming them when what you intended was to warn them.

You can only change how younger generation will perceive you. You can be perceive as "Wise Sensei" or "Old Fart", it's your choice.

I'm not in marketing or sales. I'm not in the business of changing your perception of me. Your perception is your business. I remember being young, ignorant, and unaware of it. I also remember finding out, from "old folks," that my own perception was wrong. Several of those hard lessons stuck with me all these years.

EDIT: I changed some words, to be less rude, that was not my intention.

I didn't see the original. I hope you will be less defensive and rather than lash out, maybe consider that there actually is a problem. Try not to be part of it. Show others the way out by setting an example and becoming competent (or better).

 

[JohnRoberts]

No, YOU have just entered what we call The Age of Being Old.

Blaming it on the young generations is just universal human nature thing. Read this:
25 Quotes in 2,500 Years Proving We Always Blame the Younger Generation

Blaming what exactly..? There has always been a disconnect caused at least in part by children rejecting authority.

I will probably be the same as you, it's no shame in it.

if lucky.

You can only change how younger generation will perceive you. You can be perceive as "Wise Sensei" or "Old Fart", it's your choice.

I do not lie awake at night worrying about how young people perceive me... Back when I still played pick-up basketball with HS kids it took them a little time to figure out my sense of humor but the brighter ones did.

EDIT: I changed some words, to be less rude, that was not my intention.

that's nice.

JR

 

[altfidelity]

Hey, it's OK if our views don't exactly match up. Everyone’s got their own take, and that's what makes things fun. I'm not here to one-up or offend anyone. As they say, 'Opinions are like assholes — Everyone’s got one.'. It just a forum.

Just so you know, I'm not as young as I might seem. I'm in the daily mix with coworkers who are be half my age or double it. Guess the age then.

I've been through some "real shit" "life changing" situations, sometimes even earlier than expected, enough to make anyone grumpy and pessimistic. And I'll admit, I was for a bit, but I'm making a conscious effort every day to stay optimistic. And its an effort.

What really gets me though is this whole 'young generation', 'good ol' days', 'everything's going to hell' mindset. It feels like people forget that things, civilizations, we as humans, we all just evolve over time, not necessarily for the better or worse.

Being young has its ups and downs, just like being old does. People can be awesome or downright idiots, regardless of age, sex, race, education, or background.

I've been around long enough to notice a mental gap between me and teens, but I try my best to see it as a difference, not as some kind of disadvantage for them.



My only point was...
Remember when you were a teen? Older folks used to trash talk "your generation" too. It's all a magical circle isn't it?

Anyway, we're cool. I'm not here to stir the shit further, just offering a different view so this place doesn't turn into an echo chamber.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Hey, it's OK if our views don't exactly match up. Everyone’s got their own take, and that's what makes things fun. I'm not here to one-up or offend anyone. As they say, 'Opinions are like assholes — Everyone’s got one.'. It just a forum.

And then there's data to back it up. How many 15-18 year olds in the past decade or two had part time jobs? Well over half did in my generation. It taught us many important lessons at an early age: the value of money, the importance of being reliable, the importance of teamwork, etc.

Just so you know, I'm not as young as I might seem. I'm in the daily mix with coworkers who are be half my age or double it. Guess the age then.

I started work at about age 14 or 15 in 1980. If your youngest coworkers are 15 you might be 30 at the youngest. I worked with a few people who kept on into their mid to late 70s. My own father worked part time until he was over 80. Half of 80 is 40, so I'd guess you're 30-40 which is in the range of the post to which you responded.

I've been through some "real shit" "life changing" situations, sometimes even earlier than expected, enough to make anyone grumpy and pessimistic. And I'll admit, I was for a bit, but I'm making a conscious effort every day to stay optimistic. And its an effort.

Ok, but optimism and pessimism are a small fraction of what it takes. The willpower to push through tough times, to go to work when it isn't enjoyable or when life outside work is difficult, that's what matters--getting it done with reliability and capability despite other problems.. Being able to look back at mistakes and tough times and learn something from them is another. It isn't enough just to endure.

What really gets me though is this whole 'young generation', 'good ol' days', 'everything's going to hell' mindset. It feels like people forget that things, civilizations, we as humans, we all just evolve over time, not necessarily for the better or worse.

Civilization doesn't always evolve and advance. Sometimes it fails and crushes millions of people. As for the good old days, lazy sidt young generation and all that, I have zero doubt that my parents both had tougher childhoods than me, but that society was better run in general. My grandparents lived through the Great Depression and their generation fought in WWII, Korea, and moved the USA out of the depression and into the boom times of the 50s and 60s. They had it much tougher than I ever did. So when someone tells you that your generation has it easy, they may be right.

Being young has its ups and downs, just like being old does. People can be awesome or downright idiots, regardless of age, sex, race, education, or background.

Having been young, I understand that. There will always be 5-10% of people who cause most of the problems or who can't be relied upon to do a job or pull their own weight. The problem is that percentage is rising.

I've been around long enough to notice a mental gap between me and teens, but I try my best to see it as a difference, not as some kind of disadvantage for them.

I should hope so. The human brain is still developing into the early to mid 20s. That's not what I'm talking about at all. My concern is with adults.

View attachment 117612

My only point was...
Remember when you were a teen? Older folks used to trash talk "your generation" too. It's all a magical circle isn't it?

You missed the point.

Anyway, we're cool. I'm not here to stir the shit further, just offering a different view so this place doesn't turn into an echo chamber.

What echo chamber?

 

[altfidelity]

How many 15-18 year olds in the past decade or two had part time jobs? Well over half did in my generation.

What was the work schedule? I guess part-time?

had tougher childhoods than me, but that society was better run in general.

What's the logic here? Things seem a bit contradicting here. Was it better or worse, make up your mind.

to go to work when it isn't enjoyable

You mean like everyday?

You missed the point.

I mean, I may have , I dunno.

So when someone tells you that your generation has it easy, they may be right.

As long as the person preaching is older then me, right?

I can feel it I am getting on your nerves, so I will stop talking shortly, but I will add this.

My grandpa is 90+ and still alive, and I love him dearly, and we have a honest and lovely relationship. He is sort of care-free, chill guy, very competent but in a "work smart, not hard" way. He spent his entire career working at a gas station, filling up gas from 6-7 in the morning until 3-4 in the afternoon. Occasionally, I remember he would pick me up after school, so he didn't work really late. My grandma worked behind a production line in a factory producing ignition sparks for the automotive industry. Despite minimal education, no side businesses, and no investments, they managed to build a house that, by today's standards, could be classified as bigger/better than average. Additionally, they built a weekend retreat cottage.

Regarding my partner and me, both of us earn above-average salaries. I'm an engineer at an consulting firm supporting the petroleum industry, while she works for a major conglomerate in the pharmaceutical field. We consider ourselves moderately well-educated, diligent workers (especially my partner, she is giving it 99,8% everyday), and fortunate to hold jobs that are above the average in terms of income.

We rent a flat.

It doesn't bother me. We're still at the beginning, and it might be a regional or socio-geographical specificity, but it's an undisputed fact.
Feel free to interpret this however you wish.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The world today is different than when we were your age. That is mostly a good thing while there are some problem areas where the world is not improving.

Two people can be correct without proving each other wrong.

JR

 

[crazydoc]

I can feel it I am getting on your nerves, so I will stop talking shortly, but I will add this.

Careful - don't poke the fractious or they'll try to lead you down the rabbit hole.

 

[Matador]

Careful - don't poke the fractious or they'll try to lead you down the rabbit hole.

Take the red pill Neo! In fact, take 5 or 6 of them.

 

[altfidelity]

Careful - don't poke the fractious or they'll try to lead you down the rabbit hole.

I can see that now.
All I've accomplished by engaging in this topic is giving myself a slight headache.

Take the red pill Neo! In fact, take 5 or 6 of them.

Would that make my headache go away? If it does, I'd like one too.

 

[altfidelity]

Two people can be correct without proving each other wrong.

But the older one has the last word, right?

 

[JohnRoberts]

But the older one has the last word, right?

In the long term the younger one will usually get the last word.

JR

 

[altfidelity]

In the long term the younger one will usually get the last word.

JR

Uff, i should've seen that one coming.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

What was the work schedule? I guess part-time?

When I started as a janitor I worked 2 hours after school, 3-5pm every weekday. For the first month of summer we worked full 40hr weeks completely cleaning the school before the fall session started. Stripping all floor wax, rewaxing, polishing. Cleaning graffiti off of inside and outside of lockers, washing all windows inside and out, power washing carpet, etc. Other friends worked fast food, landscaping, retail sales at the mall or other stores. I did retail one Christmas and spring break--stocking shelves, cleaning up spills, helping customers, running a cash register. 8 hour days.

I put several hundred bucks in CDs at 12-15% interest. Helped pay for college. While in college and grad school I worked every summer. I got jobs doing PC programming ('84-85), drafting ('86), Unix programming in C ('87), more drafting then PC prigramming ('88-89), then was an EE lab TA during grad school and all summers ('88-91).

What's the logic here? Things seem a bit contradicting here. Was it better or worse, make up your mind.

People were mostly more capable despite the lack of the common luxuries we now enjoy. Or because of that lack. Good times, weak men, etc.

You mean like everyday?

Sometimes. Having spent many years in the semiconductor capital equipment industry when it was fairly cyclical, we endured layoffs, or in the case of my employer, forced time off and/or temporary 10-15% pay cuts for several months. I had many high-stress jobs in my career. Few regrets.

I mean, I may have , I dunno.


As long as the person preaching is older then me, right?

Well, if you view someone trying to pass along a little hard-earned wisdom as "preaching" you may not be ready to "get it."

I can feel it I am getting on your nerves, so I will stop talking shortly, but I will add this.

No, you aren't. I've had similar interactions with younger people before.

My grandpa is 90+ and still alive, and I love him dearly, and we have a honest and lovely relationship. He is sort of care-free, chill guy, very competent but in a "work smart, not hard" way. He spent his entire career working at a gas station, filling up gas from 6-7 in the morning until 3-4 in the afternoon. Occasionally, I remember he would pick me up after school, so he didn't work really late. My grandma worked behind a production line in a factory producing ignition sparks for the automotive industry. Despite minimal education, no side businesses, and no investments, they managed to build a house that, by today's standards, could be classified as bigger/better than average. Additionally, they built a weekend retreat cottage.

Glad you've had a lot of time to spend with him. One of my grandfathers died before I was born and the other did his best to make up for that. Alzheimer's complications got him a few days before my 40th birthday. He taught me a lot in those four decades and I'm thankful for it every day.

He and my grandmother were married right after Pearl Harbor when they were eighteen. No big wedding. The ceremony was in the living room of their church parsonage. They had $12 between them. My grandfather had quit school after 8th grade to help his mother farm vegetables for a living. After many decades and some hard times they owned a nice home on 22 acres, a vacation home in the mountains, and raised three children. Retired in their 60s and had many more happy years together. They earned it.

Regarding my partner and me, both of us earn above-average salaries. I'm an engineer at an consulting firm supporting the petroleum industry, while she works for a major conglomerate in the pharmaceutical field. We consider ourselves moderately well-educated, diligent workers (especially my partner, she is giving it 99,8% everyday), and fortunate to hold jobs that are above the average in terms of income.

We rent a flat.

Depending on where you live, it can be hard. I was in the SF Bay area from late '93 until '21. Home prices were just out of reach and the dotcom boom was cranking them higher. I was stupid and hard-headed. Wanted a house, not a condo. Should have got a condo for a few years then moved up. My ex and I combined our savings and her 5 year gain on a condo to buy our first home. I was 32. We took on a jumbo 30 year mortgage at 7.25% with 20% down. Put a ton of sweat equity into it over the years.

It doesn't bother me. We're still at the beginning, and it might be a regional or socio-geographical specificity, but it's an undisputed fact.

What undisputed fact? Other generations had their obstacles to overcome as well.

Feel free to interpret this however you wish.

I'm just trying to understand your point of view and maybe impart some useful information.

 

[altfidelity]

Other generations had their obstacles to overcome as well.

So when someone tells you that your generation has it easy, they may be right.

So like every generation had it hard, except mine?
Seems like I just won a lottery ticket.


We agree on some things, we don't agree on others.
C'est la vie.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

So like every generation had it hard, except mine?

Of the last several generations the later couple have generally had it easier than the others.

Seems like I just won a lottery ticket.

That would be one way to look at it. Compared to my grandparents generation, I certainly won the lottery.

We agree on some things, we don't agree on others.
C'est la vie.

Good luck.

 

[soliloqueen]

There's a lack of seriousness about everything.

It's not a lack of seriousness, it's a lack of hope, or perhaps emotional energy. People became careless when they're apathetic because, well, they don't care. Lack of upwards mobility is a serious and worsening issue in the current economy. Work ethic has its limits, especially in the current emotional and social landscape. People are expected to be more and more productive, as always, while also having more and more taken from them in terms of community. People's nervous systems are shot from the constant and unavoidable overload if stimulus too, IMO. I don't think we quite understand what that means yet or what it's doing. If huge portions of young people are suddenly having difficulty withstanding life stress, my money is on something happening to them, rather than it being any kind of lack of resolve on their part. People say Millennials and younger are sheltered, but I think it's the exact opposite. Everyone is seeing so much all the time. It's a lack of shelter. I saw my first murder when I was about 9 or 10 years old, and so did most of the people I know. It's an inside joke with people 30 and younger like "What age were you when you discovered liveleak?" I think the human mind isn't built for processing this much information all the time, and the adaptations that young people develop to allow that might literally result in reduced ability to perform other functions. I think a lot of young people just don't communicate with older generations because they don't think they'll understand. The not only psychological but spiritual effect of growing up in the internet age is difficult to convey to older people. Seeing the computer not as a communication device but a vessel for the spirit or self, integrating it as a fully natural method of not just communication but presence. I think younger people have a sense of self and personhood that is built, from the ground up, totally differently from older generations. From some perspectives (including mine, tbh) in a way that's a net negative. It is an exhausting way to exist. It leaves little left over for participating in the world.