DIY automation Ider

[NewYorkDave]

That made me laugh because until the '70s, console faders had 30 steps at most. 21 steps were not uncommon. The fadeouts on my old Beatles records don't sound "steppy" to me :razz:

It's hard to hear a level change of 1dB or less.

 

[TomWaterman]

Absolutely dave!

I have a thing now when I work in the DAW that I make track level adjustments in whole dB only by typing in on the keypad....I have a number OCD where I hate odd and non-rounded numbers! Weird I know! but the bottom line is you don't need to set a channel to -12.57dB when -12 or even -13 will do fine!

In terms of fading, 128 steps should be fine, but it looks jerky and I bet that tricks the brain into thinking the fade is not smooth....but listen to it and its smooth enough!

If you don't mind steps you could use the PGA chips from TI and fade in 256 0.5dB steps, should be plenty of resolution...

-Tom

 

[safe as milk]

hi

just a quick question/info,

im still waiting for the alps price for motorized faders,
and a sample so i can try the daw controlled fader idea
provided i can get this logic control/midibox based system to work

would anyone be interested in a group buy for alps motorized faders?

cheers

 

[ruairioflaherty]

I might be interested but I'm not very far down the road with researching this aspect of my little mixer. If you get prices and breaks just post them and let's see what's what. If they are affordable I may be able to get some and use them as regular faders until (he says confidently) I can get the motorized faders working. If you use anything except Pro Tools this will be relatively easy to do using the Ucapps knowledge.

Pro Tools is a different ballgame and requires use of the Hui protocol, this is not yet in the public domain although there is talk of it on Ucapps. I am looking into OEM hui control modules at the moment.

BTW did you check out the guy on ebay who sells Alps faders - no idea if his prices are good or not but he might be worth a look,

cheers,
Ruairi

 

[safe as milk]

hi
i'll do that, should get the quote today,
they just called to check my email address,

that guy on ebay only gave me a price for standard issue stuff,
i'll try him again once the quote from abacus deltron is in,

re the hui, i think that's already sorted from what ive read on the midibox forum. :thumb:

cheers

 

[safe as milk]

Please find below requested pricing for Alps motorised fader

RSA0K12V ( 10KA/10KB with Touch Sense / T Bar lever)

50 PCS
price = £32.50

100 pcs = £24.25

Best Regards
Pauline Shields

Alps Product Manager

so this is so far, i presume plus vat,
i'll find out the next price break on monday hopefully,
would be good to know if anyone else is up for this once
i've prototyped it

cheers

 

[helterbelter]

interesting thread...

I bought a cybermix a year ago, with the intention to put this in my mixer, at the insertreturns, with insertswitches. This is actually the 3rd stage of my pimpingmyconsole project, from which I recently finished the second stage.

anyhow, The plan is to control the VCA's of the cybermix by midi, from the pc using cubase.... hell, this is what I'm building. http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=15089&highlight=dda

I haven't updated this for a long time, as you can see. Cosmetically it's finished since last week. Haven't made new pictures though...

So, I bought 2 bcf behringer controllers for controlling the vca's and the channelfaders in the DAW.
The faders send NRPN code instead of CC's and they have a much higher resolution than the usual 128 steps, as I was told. (coreect me if I'm wrong, but i thought it was 1600 steps).

Unfortunately, the faders are alps but the cheapest possible, and they aren't touch sensitive. I've used dedicated "write" buttons for automationwriting.

Apologies when I've given a totally stupid and senseless reply, I'm an electronicsnoob, but I wanted to share my way of diy an automated console. Usually I only watch and read !

 

[Sammas]

[quote author="TobWen"]We did a solution for the uCapps project, based on the THAT's "Digital Gain Control With Analog VCAs".

It's the same way like in big high-end consoles. You can control audio via your midi-application.

But you wrote that you're not interested in a VCA solution :-([/quote]

Hey Tobwen,

I've been searching the Ucapps site but cannot find anything about this, I don't spose you have a link?

 

[walter]

I believe mouser sells the Alps motorized faders for $50 each, but you can get a used B'ringer BCF2000 for $100 on E-bay, that's $12.50 a fader. Both the BCF2000, and the DDX3216 use the Alps motorized fader. It is a 10KB single trace fader, screw mounted to a drive bracket. It looks easy enough to put a different fader there, but the belt mount to the fader wiper may be specific to Alps. I have a pile of these I will let go for $20 each. Took pictures lastnight, it's time to post on the Black market. PM me.-Walter

 

[helterbelter]

The behringer alps type use the same lever as the normal alps type fader used in DDA and the older Soundcraft consoles (no T-type lever), but there's a cutout in the behringer alps type, which means that the belt can't be used on the normal alps faders.

I guess that the ALPS faders offered at mouser are touch sensitive, and the behringer alps ones aren't.

 

[safe as milk]

http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/displayimage.php?album=51&pos=0
http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/displayimage.php?album=51&pos=1

hi
finally got one of these alps fader samples through for testing,
with the separate audio/motor tracks/touch sense and all that.

pics above, looks like a tidy little motor system.

cheers

 

[hejsan]

Howsit going safemilk?
I'd be really interested in taking part in this.
I could probably help with some of the programming, since I got me a degree in computer engineering before converting completly to music.

You say you have a prototype?
Any news on more price brakes?

Cheers,
hejsan

 

[safe as milk]

hi hejsan

it's going slowly but thanks for asking,
my last day off was in october, been real busy,
re the programming that would be much appreciated
as computers are definately not my thing.

the prototype will be using the gear from the chaps at the
midibox.org forum using their emagic logic lc boards.
i've been lurking there from time to time
trying to glean as much info as possible before i order
all the boards up.

i have'nt followed up on anymore price breaks for the
alps faders,
as so far it's only a couple of members here that seem into it?
maybe that will change a little further down the road
im really excited by the concept of linking daw and console.

thankyou
justin

 

[hejsan]

Ok, I have built a (very lame version of) the midbox myself, and that's a pretty well documented project so I suggest using that as far as we can go.
I also remember a thread where smashTV from the ucapps site was invited, I don't know how far that went. Let's dig it out.

cheers
hejsan

 

[hagen daaz]

That's what I think.
I use PT. I have 3x 96 IO & 24 API SUM system and several outboard to put beetwen the DIGI interfaces and the API inputs.
I want to control 8 analog channels because the pre-outboard automation from ProTools is useless in some cases (ie heavy compression on vocals).

If I have a Pachable VCA (like SSL has) but controlable from a PT Midi Channel, I can control volume post compression...how bad could be?
How expensive?

I think all I need is a box that translates MIDI volume to VCA control values. Maybe one can adjust a curve to give more precision to the @ 0db position on the fader (I have a Command 8 controler).
(I remember the Midi Kiti trigger converter have several curves to adjust the converter behaviour)

The automation is inside the Protools, The fader moves in the Command 8, and the sound should be better if the VCA is QUAD (like VCA) instead of single (like OTTO or Mackie).

But I can't design that box!.

HELP!

 

[Bluzzi]

Justin - I'm curious as to what happened to this idea. Any progress?

I'm still toying with the idea of Analog Moving Faders. Just seems that anyone that gets into it is never heard from again! Scary?

I've asked Alps for some data sheets on the motors for the faders but have had no response!

jim

 

[Bear]

Does this gizmo help anyone out? http://www.arduino.cc/? Interesting sounding environment for receiving and sending signals, and integrates with MAX/MSP. Some DIY communities seem to be digging: http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/arduino/

Out of my depth, but I see potential.

Bear

 

[Bluzzi]

I keep going back and forth on this subject. It something that seems like a gargantuan task but something many of us dream or want.

So I've started amassing data on the subject. By the way I looked at that guy from France that built his console but the faders are not motorized (which does not make his work any less valid), but it was a letdown as I thought maybe he would be a source of enlightenment.

What is scary is that we never hear back from anyone that has shown an interest and has supposedly started on this quest. Nervous breakdown maybe?

I am toying with the idea of just getting 1 motorized fader (I have a P&G one from the 80's but I'd rather use something that is currently in production. Alps would be preferable but I can't seem to find any application or detailed specs on the motorized faders) and this board http://store.makezine.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MKMITRUN

This would be a low risk/low cost way of experimenting with fader control using MIDI. This is not the final solution but at least it may be encouraging enough to go on to the next step.

What do you all think?

jim

 

[chriss]

O.K. Jim, now here is my reply: I'm still interested, I already started to learn programming PIC-Microcontroller, I also got a Motor-Fader-Module from an old Neve-Desk but this is not really helpful. And I already had some ideas of how the whole thing could be done. But nothing more, no time at the moment since I'm moving with my studio.
As well I tried to figure out if it's possible to do a Motor-Fader-System with USB but I feel that gets much too complicated. So I still think MIDI is the way to go and let all the control-work be done from a sequencer.
I think there should be master module where sub-modules are connected to. these Sub-Modules could maybe be one per Fader or on per eight Faders or so. Would also be cool to something like the I²C-protocol for inter-module-communication to have less digital wires in the mixer. Etc...

Chris

 

[Bluzzi]

Chris - Here is my take on this.

When you are faced with a gargantuan task such as this I break it down to small components.

First is can we just get 1 fader to move! then can we read position data from it? So on and so on.

I will be buying the MIDI board to start and I have an old P&G motorized fader which looks like its servo motor driven. That is enough for now to see what it takes to control these beasts! There is along way after that I know, but 1 step at a time is good to not get discouraged.

jim