Donald trump. what is your take on him?

[dmp]

The Germans were in dire straights by 1930, some Americans may, be but the vast majority are comparatively rich.

I agree with the main point.
Wealth inequality played a role as well as unemployment in the 1930s.  One of the strongest arguments for progressive tax structure to combat wealth inequality is political stability.

Counties that went for Trump contribute only 36% of the US economy. The well-circulated graphic attached shows how much Federal assistance Rural pro-Trump States consume (data is 4 yrs old, but presumably the trend continues - obviously the red/blue on states like Wisconsin are out of date). Rural populations are additionally subsidized in some states (like Wisconsin) by "sharing" the local taxes to pay for services. It's also been commonly reported how Trump voters have less education, lower incomes and lower future job prospects.
Even though the country as a whole doesn't look too dire, a lot of Trump's voters are looking at a pretty grim reality. 
And as the country's debt load gets more burdensome, the people dependent on these subsidies are going to be worse off. Social security will decrease benefits automatically as it becomes insolvent unless politicians come to the rescue - the number of people on disability spiked after 2008. 
Somehow electing a privileged billionaire as your savior seems a little misguided, but he said all the right things to get their support.

I don't think that a more savvy aware public could be hoodwinked today

Looking at the misinformation of the past few years and the result, I am less optimistic.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Since I made this comparison I guess I should respond.  I said Nixon or Hitler - since the more likely immediate problem Trump faces is illegal meddling in the election. If any direct connection to him or his cronies comes out .
But as to Hitler, I actually meant it seriously.  Based on the early rise of Nazism in the 1930s. It started as a populist economic movement driven by heavy economic sanctions imposed by the victors of WWI and high unemployment in Germany.
Hitler used scapegoating to rally his supporters and unite them behind him by turning their anger and frustration on particular groups of people. He also was extremely emotional and angry in rallies promoting his rise to power.
And at what point does a historical comparison become an insult? Can you compare someone to Karl Marx?  Economics of Venezuela? etc etc
Really though I am hoping to be  ahead of the curve, so the modified Godwin's law will be named after me.
Godwin's law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1"
dmp's law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Trump  approaches 1"
Sure, this article has a lot of his statements:
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/04/sen-schumer-gop-plan-would-create-health-care-chaos.html
If you have a better source I'd be happy to read it. Not sure what is objectionable or out of the norm, unless you have a double standard for Democrats and Republicans. The highly partisan stance of Republican's over the last 6 yrs has been pretty obvious in my opinion. Plenty of objection and negativity towards Obama.

There is a distinction between personal insults and heated policy discussions. Calling someone a "clown" is clearly a personal attack. You and I have clear, strong disagreements on politics, but if I call you a "clown" for disagreeing with me on health care politics, you would consider it a personal attack I think.  A "clown" doesn't have any justifiable context.
I think we all should be able to agree that Trump is lowering the standard of politics in a really sad way and it is an embarrassment to the country.

Lowering the standards of politics seems impossible, but we are testing those old lows.  :

After listening to years of democrats crying about republican obstruction in DC and painting it as un-american and the worst possible behavior, they have flipped over night into full on team politics democratic obstruction.  In fact I prefer some good old gridlock and low legislative output. That said the hypocrisy from the democrats is palpable. Almost like seeing SNL skits on the news. They need to do what they need to do to regroup their base that is in disarray (and denial) right now, so this is just political kabuki.

As I posted months ago fixing the ACA will be difficult and impossible to do quickly. Doing it with zero participation from the democrats (like the original ACA was done with zero input accepted from the republicans) will not result in the best all around legislation for the whole country.

The republicans have little choice but to own this ACA reset. If this was easy the democrats could have done it alone. Since Trump isn't really a republican or real conservative, maybe some pragmatic democrats can come over and help him (us). 

JR

PS: I was not referencing you about the Hitler characterizations. I have seen a surprising number of such claims in media recently. I do not expect the US to follow the same path that Germany did back in the 30's, but there are some similarities and unchecked populism (which is rising all around the world) is never a good thing. We all need to keep our eyes open and I suspect media will keep Trump under the microscope for the duration. His campaign positions regarding trade are short sighted, and bullying businesses via twitter is not viable public policy. Still not POTUS yet and he has already moderated a number of his positions so I hope for a good outcome. (I do not expect to grow tired from winning all the time.  ). 

PPS: Modern naziism seems alive and with us in parts of the middle east, in fact I think there were some historical associations between the Bathists (Saddam's peeps) and the Nazi regime.

 

[tands]

Modern nazism is alive in the midwest, also, many parts of Europe it seems like. Weren't neo natzis Obama's proxy in Ukraine too? Also, Clapper wittingly told us they had no evidence Russia 'changed any vote tallies'.

I'm just waiting for him to hold up a vial of white powder. Maybe soon.

 

[fazer]

Modern naziism seems alive and with us in parts of the middle east, in fact I think there were some historical associations between the Bathists (Saddam's peeps) and the Nazi regime.

I was watching drama news, I think Frontline.  They said that Saddam's hero was Stalin.  Stalin is said to have killed 30 million of his own people if I remember right.  Talk about a Holocaust.  Russia politics have a very brutal history.  I suppose looking at Native Americans in the late 1800's have a similar path.  Shameful. 

 

[tands]

After listening to years of democrats crying about republican obstruction in DC and painting it as un-american and the worst possible behavior, they have flipped over night into full on team politics democratic obstruction.  In fact I prefer some good old gridlock and low legislative output. That said the hypocrisy from the democrats is palpable. Almost like seeing SNL skits on the news. They need to do what they need to do to regroup their base that is in disarray (and denial) right now, so this is just political kabuki.

That's a cheap shot, this is the default noise from both parties.  Palpable hypocrisy is the name of the game. As long as their team says it, people will repeat it, wittingly or unwittingly.

 

[tands]

I was watching drama news, I think Frontline.  They said that Saddam's hero was Stalin.  Stalin is said to have killed 30 million of his own people if I remember right.  Talk about a Holocaust.  Russia politics have a very brutal history.  I suppose looking at Native Americans in the late 1800's have a similar path.  Shameful.

Saddam may or may not have admired Stalin, for this that or the other thing. Frontline is generally propaganda, so I would advise some investigation before you internalize anything the TV says.

 

[fazer]

Hence "drama news"

 

[fazer]

This link for Stalin and Saddam

http://editorials.voa.gov/a/a-41-a-2003-03-10-3-1-83096482/1478117.html

 

[tands]

Hence "drama news"

Sorry, that show irritates me. As long as they keep the voiceover low key, people think it's somehow different than any other shit corporate propaganda.

 

[tands]

This link for Stalin and Saddam

http://editorials.voa.gov/a/a-41-a-2003-03-10-3-1-83096482/1478117.html

That's an editorial. Homemade propaganda. Just because someone says it, it doesn't mean that it's true, or even that they actually believe it.

"Said Aburish once worked in Iraqi government positions that brought him into close contact with Saddam Hussein. “Everything Saddam did,” says Mr. Aburish, “had Stalinist overtones. In particular, the reliance on the security system rather than the armed forces. . . . The use of criminal elements. . . [in] the security system. And those people,” said Mr. Aburish, “were sort of semi-literate thugs whose loyalty was to Saddam -- and without whom, they were nothing. . . . Anybody [Saddam] wanted to get rid of, he got rid of.” "

 

[fazer]

Tands  I enjoy reading your perspective.  Ya I find Frontline has that over produced drama in the read and the production.  It won't be long before the start adding special effect in a 5.1 surround mix to that show.

 

[tands]

"The everyday practical activity of tribesmen reproduces, or perpetuates, a tribe. This reproduction is not merely physical, but social as well. Through their daily activities the tribesmen do not merely reproduce a group of human beings; they reproduce a tribe, namely a particular social form within which this group of human beings performs specific activities in a specific manner. The specific activities of the tribesmen are not the outcome of "natural" characteristics of the men who perform them, the way the production of honey is an outcome of the "nature" of a bee. The daily life enacted and perpetuated by the tribesman is a specific social response to particular material and historical conditions.

The everyday activity of slaves reproduces slavery. Through their daily activities, slaves do not merely reproduce themselves and their masters physically; they also reproduce the instruments with which the master represses them, and their own habits of submission to the master's authority. To men who live in a slave society, the master-slave relation seems like a natural and eternal relation. However, men are not born masters or slaves. Slavery is a specific social form, and men submit to it only in very particular material and historical conditions.

The practical everyday activity of wage-workers reproduces wage labor and capital. Through their daily activities, "modern" men, like tribesmen and slaves, reproduce the habits, the social relations and the ideas of their society; they reproduce the social form of daily life. Like the tribe and the slave system, the capitalist system is neither the natural nor the final form of human society; like the earlier social forms, capitalism is a specific response to material and historical conditions.

,,, "

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/perlman-fredy/1969/misc/reproduction-daily-life.htm

 

[JohnRoberts]

I read about the hitler influence many years ago...

from wiki about Ba athism    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba'athism

According to a British journalist who interviewed Barzan al-Tikriti, the head of the Iraqi intelligence services, Saddam Hussein drew inspiration on how to rule Iraq from both Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler, and had asked Barzan to procure their works not for racist or anti-Semitic purposes, but instead "as an example of the successful organisation of an entire society by the state for the achievement of national goals." 

Baathism was also practiced in Syria where some of Saddam's peeps resettled after Bagdad fell.

This is just offered in passing because the nazis were referenced. Baathism appears to be in decline (I think).

JR

 

[tands]

"resident Barack Obama said on Friday that criticism from the left wing of his own Democratic Party helped feed into the unpopularity of Obamacare, his signature healthcare reform law.

Obama has been spending part of his last two weeks in office urging supporters to speak out against plans by Republicans – who will soon control both the White House and Congress – to dismantle the 2010 Affordable Care Act.

At a town hall event with Vox Media, Obama acknowledged the politics have been stacked against his reforms, mainly blaming Republicans who he said refused to help make legislative fixes to Obamacare, which provides subsidies for private insurance to lower-income Americans who do not have healthcare plans at work.

But Obama also said Liberals like former Democratic presidential candidate Senator Bernie Sanders had contributed to the program’s unpopularity.

During Sanders’ campaign for the presidential nomination, he proposed replacing Obamacare with a government-run single-payer health insurance system based on Medicare, the government plan for elderly and disabled Americans.

“In the ‘dissatisfied’ column are a whole bunch of Bernie Sanders supporters who wanted a single-payer plan,” Obama said in the interview.

,,,"

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/obama-says-sanders-supporters-helped-undermine-obamacare/

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out, Joe.

;D

 

[tands]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund

"The Trust Fund represents a legal obligation of the federal government to program beneficiaries. The government has borrowed nearly $2.8 trillion as of 2014 from the Trust Fund and used the money for other purposes. [Tax cuts for the rich, wars, banker bailouts, you know what they're up to] Under current law, when the program goes into an annual cash deficit, the government has to seek alternate funding beyond the payroll taxes dedicated to the program to cover the shortfall. This reduces the trust fund balance to the extent this occurs. The program deficits are expected to exhaust the fund by 2034. Thereafter, since Social Security is only authorized to pay beneficiaries what it collects in payroll taxes dedicated to the program, program payouts will fall by an estimated 21%."

79 percent of the total (not individual) 'current level' will remain and continue, if nothing at all is done. SS won't be 'gone', or 'insolvent', only the trust fund they came up with 'to prepare for the large number of baby boomers retiring'. The trust fund was started as an addition to SS 'for' that, that was 'the plan'.  Also, these are projections based on the low growth of the past few years.  You can rest assured the government is fudging the projections to manipulate the rest of us, like we're to blame for something. 

Right?

 

[Script]

"resident Barack Obama said on Friday that criticism from the left wing of his own Democratic Party helped feed into the unpopularity of Obamacare, his signature healthcare reform law.

In a similar vein, there's also the question whether uncompromising 'criticism of capitalism' (the 'system' has to go), the often cookie-cutter 'greed discourse', as well as blindly enraged 'elite bashing' may also have contributed to the latest election outcome.

 

[tands]

The answer is yes. Yes, it did.

 

[tands]

McCain and Graham have a picnic.

"Top US senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham travelled to Ukraine’s frontline in Shyrokyne to proclaim to a crack team of marines “2017 will be the year of offense” and vowed to defeat Putin on battlefields of Eastern Europe.

“All of us will go back to Washington and we will push the case against Russia. Enough of a Russian aggression.

“It is time for them to pay a heavier price. Our fight is not with the Russian people but with Putin.

“Our promise to you is to take your cause to Washington, inform the American people of your bravery and make the case against Putin to the world.”

Mr McCain added: “I believe you will win. I am convinced you will win and we will do everything we can to provide you with what you need to win.

“We have succeeded not because of equipment but because of your courage.

“So I thank you and the world is watching and the world is watching because we cannot allow Vladimir Putin to succeed here because if he succeeds here, he will succeed in other countries.”

Their comments completely differ to those of President-elect Donald Trump, who has been an outspoken supporter of Mr Putin and vowed to work with him.

Shyrokyne, a village just east of the strategic port city of Mariupol on the Azov Sea, was largely destroyed in fierce fighting during the first half of 2015 and is crucial to Ukraine’s continued effort to defend against a potential invasion."

A Ukrainian warplane was blown out of the sky over rebel-held territory as fierce clashes between government troops and pro-Russian insurgents left dozens of civilians dead. At least 415,800 people have fled their homes due to fighting between government forces and pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine, the UN refugee agency said on August 20. These powerful images show how local residents lives have been affected

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/749555/Vladimir-Putin-Ukraine-Crimea-Russia-John-McCain-Lindsey-Graham-Trump-Obama

 

[mattiasNYC]

Unfortunately, we would have seen much worse outcomes for emissions and fuel economy today if government regulation hadn't played a role. You can look up for yourself the decreases in Soot, NOx, SOx, and improvements in fuel economy over the last 30 yrs. Negative outcomes would be health effects (asthma, cancer, acid rain, etc) and higher oil prices due to more demand for the same miles driven.
One of the key hurdles to modern clean and efficient cars was forcing sulphur to be removed from the fuel - as it poisons aftertreatment. This was done by US gov regulation last decade. Would not have happened without the heavy hand of gov
.

In Trump news this week, he insulted a congressman he disagreed with on health reform by calling him a "clown"
It is really astounding that a level of discourse (personal attacks) we prohibit on this forum is being practiced by the Republican President Elect.
Trump has brought this himself - it was apparent during the primary and general election - there is no justification for his behavior and it is an embarrassment to this country.

This forum needs to see the return of the "like" options....

 

[mattiasNYC]

I can see that comparison working for the likes of Kim Jong-Un, but not Trump.
The Germans were in dire straights by 1930, some Americans may be, but the vast majority are comparatively rich.

I actually think that misses the point somewhat. The issue isn't really the actual state of things but the perceived state. Because the goal of the authoritarians is to seize power, so it doesn't really matter what the truth is only if they can capitalize on the negative perception of reality that the voters have. The Jewish were brought up and I think that's a good example in that clearly there isn't a reason for discriminating against them like we've seen, but to people right before the Nazis came to power they were a problem. The truth doesn't matter there, only perception. So if Trump paints an image that everything is a "disaster" and it feeds in to the perception of Americans then it doesn't matter whether the perception is right or wrong, what matters is that Trump is doing it - and in that sense the comparison is in my opinion not too far off, or at least arguable.

Most Americans will have grandfathers who fought against Nazi Germany, I do not believe that this present generation will trash that collective memory.

Let's just remember though that people generally aren't comparing Trump to the Hitler and Nazis of the 40's, but rather to the era in which they began to take power.

At the time, the full horror of Hitlers intentions were unknown and unforeseen, nowadays we have that knowledge and people like yourself, regularly remind us (not a bad thing) so I don't think that a more savvy aware public could be hoodwinked today.

But I think yo ustumbled upon the problem yourself above. If intentions are unknown then even with more information today many people won't see the problem until it's too late.

If you have the time, go back and watch some films from the 80's and early 90's, and pick some dystopian / authoritarian films. Part of the images they paint incorporate technology that we've since not just implemented but surpassed. So what was a legitimate fear of a surveillance state less than 30 years ago is now reality. We just 'slid into' that despite having 20/20 hindsight on everyone from the Gestapo to the Stasi to the KGB.

So unfortunately the exact problem is that we get complacent and think we're better than people in other nations and people in other eras and that "we" surely can figure out just when to slam the brakes, because we know better, and because of hindsight.... yet we keep making excuses when the questions arise....