Donald trump. what is your take on him?

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Back to potus:

Trying to de-legitimize federal judges using Twitter seems incredibly dangerous to me. This seems like yet another case of him not comprehending where his power ends, or actively trying to extend it as far as possible; separation of powers be damned.

Americans should be VERY worried about this.
 
mattiasNYC said:
So again, and I apologize if I missed this if you guys mentioned it, but how do you know what the political views were of the people that were violent? Were they part of some group that organized the protest? Did they reveal who they were and what their views are?

Lumping together actual real anarchism in the vein of actual intellectuals of the past century with houligans who want to destroy stuff under any pretext, or some other political ideology, is just doing everyone a huge disservice.

They're clearly more sophisticated than you're claiming.

"I'm part of a loosely affiliated international group of individuals known as the Black Bloc. We don't have a party platform, and you don't have to sign anything or go to any meetings to join us. We show up at all kinds of demonstrations, from actions to free Mumia Abu Jamal, to protests against the sanctions in Iraq, and at just about every meeting of international financial and political organizations from the WTO to the G8. Although most anarchists would never wear black bandanas over their faces or break windows at McDonalds, almost all of us are anarchists.

Most folks I know who have used Black Bloc tactics have day jobs working for nonprofits. Some are school teachers, labor organizers or students. Some don't have full-time jobs, but instead spend most of their time working for change in their communities. They start urban garden projects and bike libraries; they cook food for Food Not Bombs and other groups. These are thinking and caring folks who, if they did not have radical political and social agendas, would be compared with nuns, monks, and others who live their lives in service.

There is a fair amount of diversity in who we are and what we believe. I've known folks in the Black Bloc who come from as far south as Mexico City and as far north as Montreal. I think that the stereotype is correct that we are mostly young and mostly white, although I wouldn't agree that we are mostly men. When I'm dressed from head to toe in baggy black clothes, and my face is covered up, most people think I'm a man too. The behavior of Black Bloc protesters is not associated with women, so reporters often assume we are all guys.

People associated with a Black Bloc may just march with the rest of the group, showing our solidarity with each other and bringing visibility to anarchists, or we may step up the mood of the protest, escalating the atmosphere and encouraging others to ask for more than just reforms to a corrupt system. Spray painting of political messages, destroying property of corporations and creating road blocks out of found materials are all common tactics of a Black Bloc.

The Black Bloc is a fairly recent phenomenon, probably first seen in the U.S. in the early '90s and evolving out of protest tactics in Germany in the '80s. The Black Bloc may be in part a response to the large-scale repression of activist groups by the FBI during the '60s, '70s and '80s. It is impossible at this point to form a radical activist group without the fear of infiltration and disruption by the police and. for some, taking militant direct action in the streets with very little planning and working only with small networks of friends are the only meaningful forms of protest available.

Although there is no consensus among us on what we all believe, I think I can safely say that we have a few ideas in common. The first is the basic anarchist philosophy that we do not need or want governments or laws to decide our actions. Instead, we imagine a society where there is true liberty for all, where work and play are shared by everyone and where those in need are taken care of by the voluntary and mutual aid of their communities. Beyond this vision of an ideal society, we believe that public space is for everyone. We have a right to go where we want, when we want and governments should not have the right to control our movements, especially in order to hold secret meetings of groups like the WTO, which make decisions that affect millions.

We believe that destroying the property of oppressive and exploitative corporations like The Gap is an acceptable and useful protest tactic. We believe that we have the right to defend ourselves when we are in physical danger from tear gas, batons, armored personnel carriers and other law enforcement technology. We reject the idea that police should be allowed to control our actions at all. Looking at Rodney King, Amadu Dialo, Abner Ruima, the Ramparts scandal in Los Angeles and the Riders in Oakland, many of us conclude that abuse by the police is not only endemic, it is inherent.

We live in a society that is racist and homophobic and sexist and unless that is taken out of our society, it cannot be taken out of the cops who enforce the rules of our society. In an even larger view, we live in a society that has agreed to give some people the right to control what others do. This creates a power imbalance that cannot be remedied even with reforms of the police. It is not just that police abuse their power, we believe that the existence of police is an abuse of power. Most of us believe that if cops are in the way of where we want to go or what we want to do, we have a right to directly confront them. Some of us extend this idea to include the acceptability of physically attacking cops. I have to emphasize that this is controversial even within the Black Bloc, but also explain that many of us believe in armed revolution, and within that context, attacking the cops doesn't seem out of place.

There have been hours of debate in both the mainstream and left-wing press about the Black Bloc. For the most part, the media seem to agree that the Black Bloc is bad. The mainstream media's current consensus is that the Black Bloc is bad and extremely dangerous. The progressive media's most common line is that the Black Bloc is bad, but at least their aren't many of us. Everyone seems to call Black Bloc protesters violent. Violence is a tricky concept. I'm not totally clear what actions are violent, and what are not. And when is a violent action considered self defense? I believe that using the word violent to describe breaking the window of a Nike store takes meaning away from the word. Nike makes shoes out of toxic chemicals in poor countries using exploitative labor practices. Then they sell the shoes for vastly inflated prices to poor black kids from the first world. In my view, this takes resources out of poor communities on both sides of the globe, increasing poverty and suffering. I think poverty and suffering could well be described as violent, or at least as creating violence.

What violence does breaking a window at Nike Town cause? It makes a loud noise; maybe that is what is considered violent. It creates broken glass, which could hurt people, although most of the time those surrounding the window are only Black Bloc protesters who are aware of the risks of broken glass. It costs a giant multi-billion dollar corporation money to replace their window. Is that violent? It is true that some underpaid Nike employee will have to clean up a mess, which is unfortunate, but a local glass installer will get a little extra income too.

As a protest tactic, the usefulness of property destruction is limited but important. It brings the media to the scene and it sends a message that seemingly impervious corporations are not impervious. People at the protest, and those at home watching on TV, can see that a little brick, in the hands of a motivated individual, can break down a symbolic wall. A broken window at Nike Town is not threatening to peoples safety, but I hope it sends a message that I don't just want Nike to improve their actions, I want them to shut down and I'm not afraid to say it.

The biggest complaint that the left has expressed about the Black Bloc is that we make the rest of the protesters look bad. It is understandably frustrating for organizers who have spent months planning a demonstration when a group of scary looking young people get all of the news coverage by lighting things on fire. Yet what is missing in this critique is an acknowledgement that the corporate media never covers the real content of demonstrations. Militant demonstration and peaceful protest alike are rarely covered by the media at all, let alone in any depth. Although I too wish that the media would cover all styles of protest, or, more importantly, the underlying issues inspiring the protest, I'm also aware that militant tactics do get media attention. And I think that is a good thing.

I started my activist work during the Gulf War, and learned early that sheer numbers of people at demonstrations are rarely enough to bring the media out. During the war I spent weeks organizing demonstrations against the war. In one case, thousands showed up to demonstrate. But again and again, the newspapers and television ignored us. It was a major contrast the first time I saw someone break a window at a demonstration and suddenly we were all on the six o'clock news. The militant mood of anti-globalization protests in the last couple years has undeniably contributed to the level of attention that globalization is now getting in the media. And although the Black Bloc is not the only reason for this, (a myriad of creative, innovative strategies have helped to bring the fickle eye of the media in the direction of the left), I believe that George Bush II felt compelled to directly address the protesters at the G8 summit in Genoa because of the media coverage that our movement is finally getting.

A second complaint that I have heard from the left, and in particular from other, non-Black Bloc protesters, is that they don't like our masks. I've been yelled at by protester and cop alike to take off my mask. This idea is impossible for most of us. What we are doing is illegal. We believe in militant, direct action protest tactics. We are well aware that police photograph and videotape demonstrations, even when they are legally disallowed from doing so. To take off our masks will put us in direct danger of the police.

The masks serve another, symbolic purpose as well. Although there are certainly those who wish to advance their own positions or gain popularity within the militant anarchist community, the Black Bloc maintains an ideal of putting the group before the individual. We rarely give interviews to the press (and those of us who do are generally frowned upon or regarded with suspicion). We act as a group because safety is in numbers and more can be accomplished by a group than by individuals, but also because we do not believe in this struggle for the advancement of any one individual. We don't want stars or spokespeople. I think the anonymity of the Black Bloc is in part a response to the problems that young activists see when we look back at the civil rights, anti-war, feminist and anti-nuclear movements. Dependence on charismatic leaders has not only led to infighting and hierarchy within the left, but has given the FBI and police easy targets who, if killed or arrested, leave their movements without direction. Anarchists resist hierarchy, and hope to create a movement that is difficult for police to infiltrate or destroy.

Some of the critiques of the Black Bloc by the left come from our own acceptance of the values of our corrupt society. There is outcry when some kids move a dumpster into the street and light it on fire. Most people conclude the protesters are doing this to give themselves a thrill, and I can't deny that there is a thrilling rush of adrenaline each time I risk myself in this way. But how many of us forgive ourselves for occasionally buying a T-Shirt from The Gap, even though we know that our dollars are going directly to a corporation that violently exploits their workers? Why is occasional "shopping therapy" more acceptable than finding joy in an act of militant protest that may be limited in its usefulness? I would argue that even if Black Bloc protests only served to enrich the lives of those who do them, they are still better for the world than spending money at the multiplex, getting drunk or other culturally sanctioned forms of entertainment or relaxation.

I have my own criticisms of what I'm doing and of the efficacy of my protest tactics. Property destruction, spray painting and looking menacing on TV is clearly not enough to bring on a revolution. The Black Bloc won't change the world. I dislike the feeling of danger or at least the fear of danger at protests for those who do not want to be in danger -- particularly for the kids, pregnant women and older folks I see there. I really hate the annoying use of pseudo-military jargon like "communiqué" and "bloc" by my "comrades." But mostly I hate hearing myself and my friends trashed by every mainstream organizing group from the AFL-CIO to Global Exchange and in every left-wing rag from Mother Jones to the beloved Indymedia.org. Although this is not true for everyone in the Black Bloc, I respect the strategies of most other left-wing groups. At demonstrations I attempt to use Black Bloc actions to protect non-violent protesters or to draw police attention away from them. When this is not possible, I try to just stay out of the way of other protesters.

Despite my concerns, I think that Black Bloc actions are a worthwhile form of protest. And as I watch the increasingly deadly force with which the police enforce the law at demonstrations around the world (three protesters were shot dead at an anti-WTO demonstration in Papua New Guinea in June, two protesters were shot dead at an anti-globalization demonstration in Venezuela last year, and Carlo Giulliani, a 23 year old, was killed by police during the G8 summit in Genoa), I find it increasingly ironic that my actions are labeled as violent and dangerous while even the left seems to think that the police are "just doing their jobs."

.. "

http://www.dawnone.com/bbloc.htm
 
mattiasNYC said:
Back to potus:

Trying to de-legitimize federal judges using Twitter seems incredibly dangerous to me. This seems like yet another case of him not comprehending where his power ends, or actively trying to extend it as far as possible; separation of powers be damned.

Americans should be VERY worried about this.

Interesting take I came across just today.

"The unhealthy collective compulsion toward fearmongering and exaggeration is crippling the left's ability to respond consciously to real issues."

http://www.newslogue.com/debate/323/CaitlinJohnstone
 
tands said:
They're clearly more sophisticated than you're claiming.

Who is "they"?  Are we talking about the same "they"?

Your link says at the top: "Four Articles from (Alleged) Black Bloc Members, Ya Basta solidarity from Genoa"

On top of that the article you quote is over 15 years old. A decade and a half. Were they the ones rioting at Berkley?

What am I missing here?

 
You're trying to insinuate that the people who shut down the fascist at UC Berkeley weren't anarchists, even though the Black Bloc tactic they used is one that anarchists use, and the fact that anarchists commonly shut down fascists with just such a tactic. You want to quibble about it with me, even though I have given you what they believe in their own words, which perfectly explains their actions, because apparently doing that means something to you.

I gotta be honest, man, I just don't care whether you suspect them of being non-conforming anarchists. You don't decide that, they do.

Cheers, anyway.
 
Tands,
Unless I have misunderstood, you are a woman, pretty rare on this forum.

I can sympathise with a lot of what you say, but I don't agree with your methods.

It is a largely utopian idealism in a fallen world. but in practice, there are a lot of bad people out there that we need to be protected from.  I don't know how Black Bloc would deal with them if it had the responsibility.

The entire infra structure of the environment in which you operate and were nourished was provided by people and systems that you wish were not in control.  So on that basis I think that however well meaning, your organisation is basically parasitic, it can have no other life other than feeding off a host.

I have always thought that violence at demonstrations was counter productive and self-defeating, but I acknowledge that it must give you a sense of fighting back at anonymous invisible forces.  In the end it is only the majority that can effect change and even then it is difficult.  Take Trump voters for example, they won an election but are facing demonstrations and ridicule every step of the way.  I think that strange as it may seem, there are similarities between the aims of them and Black Bloc, anti-globalisation being one, smaller government being another.

DaveP
 
Hi Dave, I am not a woman, no big deal. I am trying to communicate what anarchists believe, and why they do what they do. I am making no judgement about them, or claiming their tactics as my own.

The text a few posts back was written by a female anarchist, not me. I do appreciate that you read and understood what she said, even if you don't agree. Thank you for that!

:)

 
Interesting take I came across just today.

"The unhealthy collective compulsion toward fearmongering and exaggeration is crippling the left's ability to respond consciously to real issues."

http://www.newslogue.com/debate/323/CaitlinJohnstone

I agree with this analysis completely!

There seems to be a generational thing going here.  In my day, we were encouraged to be responsible for our own actions and to "get a grip".  In other words Self Reliance.  Women burnt their bras, they didn't sit around in support groups knitting pussy hats.

Kids had more freedom when I was small, we went to the park without our parents.  In the UK, paranoia about paedophiles caused all kids to be issued with mobile phones by helicopter parents.  Now it looks like an entire generation needs to be supported by FB friends or twitter followers.  This goes part of the way to explain why older people are not so worried by Trump, yet the younger ones think it is Apocalypse Now.

DaveP
 
mattiasNYC said:
Though  curiously there still are laws on the books against atheists.
and overruled by the 1st amendment. Many state laws were cleaned up in the 20th century.
To conservatives that's probably how it looked. Regardless, by and large that group was most certainly NOT anarchist. I'd bet infinity dollars that almost all who protested were in favor of having a state and government, just weren't in favor of what the current one was doing.
I stand by my characterization that the people protesting at the "occupy" movement in NYC were just looking to hang out. I have posted that I liked one of their public demands: "separation of business and state" similar to separation of church and state. Not being a coherent grass roots movement they dissipated.

I'd like to explore that one good concept. Regulation draws business into a complicated relationship with government that can lead to attempts by business to manage that relationship via lobbying.

I have absolutely no idea how you link these things. You leap from anarchism to 'occupy wall street' to 'kids like to blow stuff up' to terrorism being appealing to anti-authoritarian... I mean... ???
glad to keep you guessing.
Ironically, some would say that calling police brutality 'criminals resisting arrest' "spin", and would also argue that the criminal behavior by those cops leads to more of the same.
non-sequitur to stir the pot..... I pass
Funny how that works.

Fortunately, the most massive anti-president protests this country has seen in a very long time, maybe ever, were for the very most part entirely peaceful. Lumping it all together and complaining about the odd riot being called a protest, which typically doesn't happen, is just silly.
I don't recall lumping them all together, while some extreme voices are encouraging violence.

-Madonna said she thinks about blowing up the WH. (paraphrase I am too lazy to look up the exact quote, but she has had crazy fans.)

-Sarah Silverman tweeted "WAKE UP & JOIN THE RESISTANCE.  ONCE THE MILITARY IS W US FASCISTS GET OVERTHROWN. MAD KING & HIS HANDLERS GO BYE BYE❤❤❤❤ ".  She has since tried to walk that back. 
Lastly, I find this notion on "the right", by "conservatives", that we absolutely need law and order and civility and politeness, a bit short-sighted and ironic. Destruction of property obviously sucks, unless it's the Boston Tea Party. Then it's ok. Or bombing abortion clinics, then we look the other way or don't tally that up in a column of terrorism. Neither do we talk about the unreasonable nature of the chaotic streets and riots of earlier decades that led to greater justice and equality for all Americans.
Another straw man... Are you equating the riots with pre revolutionary war tax protests? 

Peaceful protests are protected speech and encouraged. What they did in Berkeley was criminal behavior. I am still unclear what they were even rioting about there. They didn't like his ideas so decided to prevent him from speaking?  Yes I am opposed to that (probably opposed to him too, but don't care enough to find out).  No doubt he didn't mind the  publicity, that somebody paid for.

Police arrested 11 when violent protests broke out on NYU campus when Gavin Mcinnis gave a seminar. His speech was cut short when protesters got inside the hall. Peaceful protest is protected speech, violence is criminal behavior and should be treated as such. It appears the NYC police did just that. (only 3 were reportedly arrested at Berkeley). 

I wouldn't be surprised if both these speakers stirred the pot with inflammatory statements, to create some controversy and publicity.
So, what I'm saying is that there's this knee-jerk reaction by "the right" to complain about the lack of law and order, exactly because they are conservatives and don't want change. But in principle they too would be ok with violence as long as it's in their favor. Heck, "the right" by and large is the violent-advocating group when it comes to international relations. Solutions appear to come in the form of lead in a lot of cases.
I have followed Saudi Arabia's attempts to re-educate radical islamists (from Yemen and within Saudi Arabia), to return them to peaceful society.  Reportedly they have a 90% success rate (10% are too hard core to change), and 2% recidivism after release. The Saudi program is unique and unlikely to work on a larger scale. So yes, I believe some will only stop trying to kill westerners when they are finally killed.

I am still waiting for effective non-lethal warfare, but for the 10% or more hard cases, we will need to keep the lights on at Gitmo for another few decades. 

JR
 
tands said:
You're trying to insinuate that the people who shut down the fascist at UC Berkeley weren't anarchists, even though the Black Bloc tactic they used is one that anarchists use, and the fact that anarchists commonly shut down fascists with just such a tactic. You want to quibble about it with me, even though I have given you what they believe in their own words, which perfectly explains their actions, because apparently doing that means something to you.

I gotta be honest, man, I just don't care whether you suspect them of being non-conforming anarchists. You don't decide that, they do.

Cheers, anyway.

If "the means" define an ideology then they could just as well have been anything from racist anti-semites to soccer fans.

To say that a group of unidentified people in 2017 subscribes to a specific ideology because some again unidentified group supposedly promoted the same means a decade and a half ago is a pretty spurious argument.
 
DaveP said:
The entire infra structure of the environment in which you operate and were nourished was provided by people and systems that you wish were not in control.  So on that basis I think that however well meaning, your organisation is basically parasitic, it can have no other life other than feeding off a host.

DaveP

If you're talking about anarchism as a real political ideology rather than what a bunch of miscreants use as an excuse to destroy stuff then you're completely wrong.
 
JohnRoberts said:
I have posted that I liked one of their public demands: "separation of business and state" similar to separation of church and state.

Do you have a link for this story?

http://archive.larouchepac.com/node/19779 ?

"Some protestors have favored a fairly concrete set of national policy proposals. One OWS group that favored specific demands created a document entitled the 99 Percent Declaration, but this was regarded as an attempt to "co-opt" the "Occupy" name, and the document and group were rejected by the General Assemblies of Occupy Wall Street and Occupy Philadelphia. However others, such as those who issued the Liberty Square Blueprint, are opposed to setting demands, saying they would limit the movement by implying conditions and limiting the duration of the movement.  David Graeber, an OWS participant, has also criticized the idea that the movement must have clearly defined demands, arguing that it would be a counterproductive legitimization of the very power structures the movement seeks to challenge. In a similar vein, scholar and activist Judith Butler has challenged the assertion that OWS should make concrete demands: "So what are the demands that all these people are making? Either they say there are no demands and that leaves your critics confused. Or they say that demands for social equality, that demands for economic justice are impossible demands and impossible demands are just not practical. But we disagree. If hope is an impossible demand then we demand the impossible." Regardless, activists favor a new system that fulfills what is perceived as the original promise of democracy to bring power to all the people."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street

"The 99 Percent Declaration or 99% Declaration is a not-for-profit organization based in Kentucky that originated from a working group of the Occupy Wall Street (OWS) movement in Zuccotti Park, New York City in October 2011. The organization published a document calling for a "National General Assembly" to be held beginning the week of July 4, 2012 in Philadelphia, which was rejected by the general assemblies of OWS and Occupy Philadelphia. The Declaration includes demands for an immediate ban on all monetary and gift contributions to all politicians, implementation of a public financing system for political campaigns, and the enactment of an amendment to the United States Constitution overturning the Supreme Court's Citizens United v. FEC decision."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Percent_Declaration

"The Liberty Square Blueprint was an Occupy Wall Street manifesto consisting in a collection of loosely defined goals authored by about 250 protesters. It was started around the beginning of October 2011 as a wiki style document. As of October 18, 2011, the Blueprint had 11 core visions including:

    embracing open-source technology,
    ending all wars,
    eliminating "discrimination and prejudice," and
    reappropriating "our business structures and culture, putting people and our Earth before profit."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Square_Blueprint
 
mattiasNYC said:
If "the means" define an ideology then they could just as well have been anything from racist anti-semites to soccer fans.

To say that a group of unidentified people in 2017 subscribes to a specific ideology because some again unidentified group supposedly promoted the same means a decade and a half ago is a pretty spurious argument.

There's no debate here, there needs to be good faith on both sides that the truth is a goal, for any debate to be worth the time. You lack good faith here, in that truth is not your goal. You just want to talk sh*t about people who break windows, without confronting their ideas, or accepting that they are free to believe what they believe, just as you are. It's dishonest, evasive, and comical.
 
JohnRoberts said:
I stand by my characterization that the people protesting at the "occupy" movement in NYC were just looking to hang out. I have posted that I liked one of their public demands: "separation of business and state" similar to separation of church and state. Not being a coherent grass roots movement they dissipated.

That's why you can't imply they were all anarchists, or even a majority of them. They weren't.

JohnRoberts said:
I'd like to explore that one good concept. Regulation draws business into a complicated relationship with government that can lead to attempts by business to manage that relationship via lobbying.

You can't have your cake and eat it too John. On the one hand you seem to be on board with regulation of business because you realize that capitalism puts profit above all else and thus promotes doing things that are detrimental to society. That's why we have laws preventing corporations from dumping toxic waste in nature etc. Regulating the financial industry, or "wall street" is similar in the sense that not doing so can wreak havoc on the economy.

However, the conservative capitalist mantra is "less government, less regulation" and that's in contrast to the above. You could of course say that there's a happy middle ground somewhere, but then the question really become just what you can expect when your system regularly produces politicians that are millionaires who repeatedly place other business people with their ties to their prior industries and businesses in places of power. Trump puts bankers in government and now wants to repeal regulations of Wall Street. So what are we to expect will happen here?

With regulation the complaint is that it ties government to business, and without you still have a problem.

JohnRoberts said:
non-sequitur to stir the pot..... I pass

Not at all. You just didn't understand the analogy.

JohnRoberts said:
I don't recall lumping them all together, while some extreme voices are encouraging violence.

Are you talking about Trump advocating violence during his rallies again? Do you want me to post a video of that again so you can ignore it again? But I guess it's ok if the presidential candidate does it during a campaign...

JohnRoberts said:
Another straw man... Are you equating the riots with pre revolutionary war tax protests? 

I don't know, am I? Or was I talking about judging a cause by its means?

JohnRoberts said:
I am still waiting for effective non-lethal warfare, but for the 10% or more hard cases, we will need to keep the lights on at Gitmo for another few decades. 

JR

I wasn't really objecting to using lethal force to deal with terrorists, I was objecting to what else you implied.

As for Gitmo, it's nice that you have faith in your government's ability to actually grab the right people as opposed to insignificant ones, and then lock them up without a trial indefinitely. Some would call that authoritarian, some wouldn't I guess.
 
"But Occupy Wall Street's most defining characteristics—its decentralized nature and its intensive process of participatory, consensus-based decision-making—are rooted in other precincts of academe and activism: in the scholarship of anarchism and, specifically, in an ethnography of central Madagascar.

It was on this island nation off the coast of Africa that David Graeber, one of the movement's early organizers, who has been called one of its main intellectual sources, spent 20 months between 1989 and 1991. He studied the people of Betafo, a community of descendants of nobles and of slaves, for his 2007 book, Lost People.

Betafo was "a place where the state picked up stakes and left," says Mr. Graeber, an ethnographer, anarchist, and reader in anthropology at the University of London's Goldsmiths campus.

In Betafo he observed what he called "consensus decision-making," where residents made choices in a direct, decentralized way, not through the apparatus of the state. "Basically, people were managing their own affairs autonomously," he says.

The process is what scholars of anarchism call "direct action." For example, instead of petitioning the government to build a well, members of a community might simply build it themselves. It is an example of anarchism's philosophy, or what Mr. Graeber describes as "democracy without a government.""

http://www.chronicle.com/article/Intellectual-Roots-of-Wall/129428/
 
" While insisting they’ve not abandoned their goal of repealing President Barack Obama’s health care overhaul, Republicans are increasingly talking about “repairing” it as they grapple with disunity, drooping momentum and uneasy voters. The GOP triumphantly shoved a budget through Congress three weeks ago that gave committees until Jan. 27 to write bills dismantling the law and substituting a Republican plan. Everyone knew that deadline was soft, but now leaders are talking instead about moving initial legislation by early spring.

(The quote is from a fine wrap-up by Kaiser Heatlth News). Mic amplifies:

    Congressional Republicans seamlessly rolled out a pivot on Thursday that could signal a major shift in how they will approach health care reform. The longtime GOP mantra for the Affordable Care Act was “repeal and replace.” Now, the same Republican leaders are using the term “repair” to describe their approach to the health care law.

    The shift happened for a few reasons: Because Republicans do not have 60 votes in the Senate, they cannot repeal every word of the health care law. It also recognizes, from a policy standpoint, that a wholesale repeal may not be possible. Republicans have struggled to present a plan to preserve access to coverage for millions of Americans who gained it under the ACA, especially those with lower incomes

...

I’ll take it as read that counties with a monopoly supplier have insurance that’s (even) more crapified than those with several suppliers. So, where are the counties that are on the bubble between two and one suppliers? That is, the counties that will turn from blue to orange? Why, many of them are in the swing states that Trump very unexpectedly won in 2016: Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. So, if Trump wants to unswing those states in 2020 by pissing off Debbie Mills in her hundreds of thousands, then he should crapify her health insurance (even more) with “repairs” that make sure she’s sending her checks to a monopoly supplier.

...

[3] ObamaCare, among other things, is a welfare make-work program for 10%er symbol manipulators: Marketers, web designers, trainers, video producers, pollsters, and so on."

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/02/obamacare-trumpcare-politics.html
 
tands said:
http://www.chronicle.com/article/Intellectual-Roots-of-Wall/129428/

As someone else pointed out earlier, it's much more interesting reading your own words and thoughts than a massive amount of copy-paste.

As for what you actually pasted, since you didn't actually contribute your own clear thoughts on it, I can only guess that your point was that the OWS protesters were anarchists, because that's what I just was denying. The article though really talks a lot more about the process they used to organize, because it in a lot of ways resembled Anarchist (non-?)structures.

But that's one thing, and my point all along has been that if you were to ask these people if they wanted to actually get rid of the state in the US most would answer 'no'. What most wanted was less corruption, less rule by a tiny elite, and more equality financially and socially.

Go read some of the literature on Anarchism and ask yourself if such societies is what the protesters wanted in the US.
 
tands said:
Do you have a link for this story?
Which story... I followed it in the news at the time, read numerous newspaper articles and saw numerous TV news reports.

JR
http://archive.larouchepac.com/node/19779 ?

"Some protestors have favored a fairly concrete set of national policy proposals. One OWS group that favored specific demands created a document entitled the 99 Percent Declaration, but this was regarded as an attempt to "co-opt" the "Occupy" name, and the document and group were rejected by the General Assemblies of Occupy Wall Street and Occupy Philadelphia. However others, such as those who issued the Liberty Square Blueprint, are opposed to setting demands, saying they would limit the movement by implying conditions and limiting the duration of the movement.  David Graeber, an OWS participant, has also criticized the idea that the movement must have clearly defined demands, arguing that it would be a counterproductive legitimization of the very power structures the movement seeks to challenge. In a similar vein, scholar and activist Judith Butler has challenged the assertion that OWS should make concrete demands: "So what are the demands that all these people are making? Either they say there are no demands and that leaves your critics confused. Or they say that demands for social equality, that demands for economic justice are impossible demands and impossible demands are just not practical. But we disagree. If hope is an impossible demand then we demand the impossible." Regardless, activists favor a new system that fulfills what is perceived as the original promise of democracy to bring power to all the people."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street

"The 99 Percent Declaration or 99% Declaration is a not-for-profit organization based in Kentucky that originated from a working group of the Occupy Wall Street (OWS) movement in Zuccotti Park, New York City in October 2011. The organization published a document calling for a "National General Assembly" to be held beginning the week of July 4, 2012 in Philadelphia, which was rejected by the general assemblies of OWS and Occupy Philadelphia. The Declaration includes demands for an immediate ban on all monetary and gift contributions to all politicians, implementation of a public financing system for political campaigns, and the enactment of an amendment to the United States Constitution overturning the Supreme Court's Citizens United v. FEC decision."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Percent_Declaration

"The Liberty Square Blueprint was an Occupy Wall Street manifesto consisting in a collection of loosely defined goals authored by about 250 protesters. It was started around the beginning of October 2011 as a wiki style document. As of October 18, 2011, the Blueprint had 11 core visions including:

    embracing open-source technology,
    ending all wars,
    eliminating "discrimination and prejudice," and
    reappropriating "our business structures and culture, putting people and our Earth before profit."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Square_Blueprint
 
tands said:
Hi Dave, I am not a woman, no big deal. I am trying to communicate what anarchists believe, and why they do what they do. I am making no judgement about them, or claiming their tactics as my own.

The text a few posts back was written by a female anarchist, not me. I do appreciate that you read and understood what she said, even if you don't agree. Thank you for that!

:)
Your preponderance of cut and paste instead of posting your own original thoughts can be confusing.. some times I have to read a couple paragraphs in before figuring out what it is so i can skip it.

I had to go back almost a month to find a post from you that wasn't in this one topic and they were about Wesley Clark. In fact there were exactly 4 posts ever that were not about Trump or politics. Again not against any rule, but pretty single-mindedly political and not the raison d'être for this forum (at least IMO)..

JR

PS: Speaking of anarchists, there are always spokespeople willing to stand up and speak for vague groups in the news cycle du jour. I am not aware of a formal anarchist's club*** with membership dues and annual conventions. While plenty of them tend to convene at high profile "big money" meetings like Davos, or G8 (? not sure what the G number is these days). 

*** There is an anarchists club in Melbourne  ??? (That figures)
 

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