Donald trump. what is your take on him?
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T
tands
Guest
DaveP said:
Now you don't have to be mystified anymore, Dave. I'm glad we settled that.
A pointless circular tour.
Some questions for you.
Why do the coastal people in the US care so little about the ones who got left behind in the middle?
Why did they not demonstrate on mass for their fellow American's jobs?
Why do we have to have globalization when we'd rather not ?
Doesn't globalization just benefit a company's bottom line and shareholders more than anyone else?
Why are we obliged to soak up other countries surplus population because they don't practice birth control and we do?
When you can answer some of these questions, you will be on the way to discovering why the Democrats lost.
You will also be able to start rebuilding a shattered party that best suits its voters and not just its coastal ideology.
DaveP
Some questions for you.
Why do the coastal people in the US care so little about the ones who got left behind in the middle?
Why did they not demonstrate on mass for their fellow American's jobs?
Why do we have to have globalization when we'd rather not ?
Doesn't globalization just benefit a company's bottom line and shareholders more than anyone else?
Why are we obliged to soak up other countries surplus population because they don't practice birth control and we do?
When you can answer some of these questions, you will be on the way to discovering why the Democrats lost.
You will also be able to start rebuilding a shattered party that best suits its voters and not just its coastal ideology.
DaveP
micaddict
Well-known member
DaveP said:
How about wanting to protest before another (indecent) clown gets elected rather than after?
You can look at it that way if it makes you feel better, or you could look at it that they voted for such a man as you describe because they perceived that the alternative was even worse. If a party loses touch with it's electorate, it only has itself to blame.
The Democrats need a big rethink and a leader as inspiring as Obama was in the beginning, but there is no-one in sight.
In the end the protests are against an outcome they didn't like and the choice of their fellow Americans. There is as much point in the protest as there is in me protesting about Brexit, I don't like it but I have to live with it and hope for the best.
DaveP
T
tands
Guest
DaveP said:
DaveP said:
No problem.
DaveP said:
They're generally richer, and nearly entirely self absorbed.
DaveP said:
Demonstrating involves effort and risk, online snark is cheap and easy, and fulfills their need for self aggrandizement without either effort or risk. Mostly, they're hypocrites. They don't really believe in equality, just their particular hierarchy.
DaveP said:
The moneyed interests want it, it gives them more varieties of power against the rest of us. The idea is to get a system going where they can universally charge rent for existence, and we work for them to get the money to pay. A closed loop.
DaveP said:
Sure. The specter of capitalism haunting the world.
DaveP said:
Because we need to take their oil by force, so that we can put gas in our cars to work and shop. We also do the bidding of our friends the saudis, kuwaitis, etc. You get the refugees since you're right there.
DaveP said:
Lol. Karma's a *****, that's why.
DaveP said:
f**k em. Now we'll see whether they'll stand up to anyone, for anything. I doubt it very much, myself.
DaveP said:
Cheers.
"For most people, the natural reaction upon learning Markos Moulitsas had penned a blog post titled “Be Happy for Coal Miners Losing Their Health Insurance. They’re Getting Exactly What They Voted For” probably went something like this:
“What is this? This is awful.”
“Hmm. That is awful.”
Or, perhaps, “Who? What is this website? This is awful to me.”
Twelve years later, and it feels like we are a much longer way away from the halcyon era of the Howard Dean campaign. It is baffling to think the losing Democratic primary campaign of a yelping pharma shill in the pay of a violent Iranian cult could be some high-water mark for liberals. But to at least one rapidly graying liberal clique, it is.
Such is — was — the mindset of Markos Moulitsas, or “Kos,” as he is insufferably known: an un-person already, at the youngish age of forty-five.
The Markos Moulitsas of 2016 uneasily lingers on from those heady Netroots days, like some errant looping transmission from a long-lost spaceship — a hologram still beaming from some distant spot in the galaxy, screeching about a Borg attack that claimed his life many lightyears ago."
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/01/markos-moulitsas-kos-democrats-clinton-trump/
My new thought for the day is that lopsided government is never good (even lopsided republican)... but since President Trump is not a real republican (or real conservative, or real libertarian, or actual nazi), we kind of have a divided government now with a sort of republican congress having to work with President Trump whatever he is (populist?). The republican caucus is far from monotonic.
He seems like a pragmatic businessman, as well as most of his cabinet appointments, but that is not a concise political definition which seems overly pinned to ideology. I am OK with some pragmatism.
Lets see how this goes for a while. At least it will be entertaining as the press tries to one-up each other with fake news gotchas (not worth repeating).
JR
He seems like a pragmatic businessman, as well as most of his cabinet appointments, but that is not a concise political definition which seems overly pinned to ideology. I am OK with some pragmatism.
Lets see how this goes for a while. At least it will be entertaining as the press tries to one-up each other with fake news gotchas (not worth repeating).
JR
living sounds
Well-known member
DaveP said:
It's easy to say when you are not the one who's healthcare, civil rights, voting rights, residence permit etc. are at stake. Maybe even the entire American idea. I live in Germany and would have contemplated joining a demonstration if one had been held in my town. These are not normal (postwar) times, no matter where you live.
And Trump is a narcisst, he desperately craves to be liked. He might actually be influenced by this to change his policies...
micaddict
Well-known member
Dave, you're not getting the point I and others are trying to make. Frankly, when I first read your remark, I was baffled.
Then, after a couple others replied (without success), in a positive mood I thought I'd give it a shot anyway. But I think it's pointless after all.
Sorry.
Carry on.
So I wanted to reply immediately. But I refrained, as I figured it would probably be pointless. Not because I think I'm better or smarter than you. (!) The only answer I could find is that apparently some here are just wired too differently than some others.
Then, after a couple others replied (without success), in a positive mood I thought I'd give it a shot anyway. But I think it's pointless after all.
Sorry.
Carry on.
T
tands
Guest
living sounds said:
It'll be interesting when friction arises with the reps in congress. He'll take it personally, imo. If they can't get him to get with their program, they'll impeach him over whatever. Do they want to piss off his base? Sad!
M
mattiasNYC
Guest
DaveP said:
They do care. What a silly question. Why did they not "demonstrate"? They did. A lot voted for Bernie for a reason.
DaveP said:
Because of neo-liberal pro-capitalist ideology sweeping the west + the US being a de facto two-party state where both parties are pro-capitalism. That's why. If you're a capitalist then you too support a company's bottom line above all else, because that's the fundamental mechanism of capitalism.
So, when people in the US have voted in the past they've voted between capitalism with some progressive social policies, and capitalism with less progressive or even conservative policies. In both cases it's been pro-capitalism. Tax rates aren't unimportant, but the wealth gap increases in both scenarios, with a middle class getting less out of increased productivity.
Does that answer your questions?
DaveP said:
Since you're a Brit I'd say because you guys ran around the planet practicing colonialism and killing off indigenous peoples by the millions, so perhaps this is justified "reparations"?
Further more, if you're talking about "birth control" then you'd be against the conservatives in the US, you know the ones that are now in office, you know the ones that women all over the planet are protesting. So again, it's in their interest that the values of the US administration (which you appear to broadly support) don't spread globally, because those value could affect - as they already have btw - exactly things like birth control, and thus women's liberation and independence.
DaveP said:
You would have to add above the fact that Bernie was just what a lot of the people you describe as suffering was looking for. Yet because of the typical American's partisan bent they couldn't make themselves switch to the Democrats to vote for Bernie in the primaries.
M
mattiasNYC
Guest
JohnRoberts said:
So we've gone from you turning a blind eye to Trump's lies while campaigning, for example him telling the voters right into the camera that he wasn't saying climate change was a Chinese hoax, despite everyone on the planet being able to see his tweets that said exactly that,
we've gone from that to you now ignoring the White House press secretary lying to the public and press from the pulpit, and the spokesperson for the president just calling that "Alternate Facts".
Do you actually even care about the truth at all John? I mean, like, one little bit???
If this new administration lies about "minor" issues like the inauguration head count, yet easily verifiable issues, just what do you expect the administration to do on issues you actually care about that are more complex and more important?
I find it completely baffling how some Americans so willingly accept lies as long as it's their own leader doing it.
M
mattiasNYC
Guest
DaveP said:
I understand your point and I agree with part of your premise (contrary to Tands), because it was a pretty much self-described women's march. So I get why you're emphasizing that which women themselves emphasized.
But to get back to the above question: In war women and children suffer greatly, and war and violence is necessary to perpetuate occupation and colonialism, and just today Israel announced the go-ahead with new settlements with the justification that there's new leadership in Washington. So right there is one reason why this has global implications, in this case perpetuating 21st century colonialism.
Thank you Matt, I know I have a bit of Asperger's about me, which probably explains why micaddict has trouble understanding me.
I don't actually need to have any answers to the questions I posed, they were the kind of things the Democrats will have to deal with themselves as they reform.
It was such a pity that they chose Hillary over Sanders, he had a strong following among the young. He would have made a much smaller target for Trump.
We are in for a very bumpy ride now, I expect some decisions to inflame some issues and others to be soothed, what the net result will be is unpredictable.
There is an old English saying that goes "It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good", Which translated means there will be some issues that get solved even when things look at their blackest. None of his administration have much experience so there will be lots of mistakes (like arguing over crowd numbers), we can only hope that they are fast learners.
DaveP
M
mattiasNYC
Guest
DaveP said:
I actually think you were quite clear given the context.
DaveP said:
But again, the above only accepts the notion that there only are two options in the US; Democrat and Republican. In other words, far more political opinions exist than there are "viable" alternatives to vote for. Since that's the case we can't and shouldn't then accept the notion that "The Democrats" should have done this, that or the other thing with the implication that those are the people on the coasts that didn't care that much about the middle class in the middle of the country. Because it's not true as a description of people's actual political views.
micaddict
Well-known member
Classic.
My 2 cents about Trump.
I think he gets more hatred than he deserves.
When Obama was running the election, he said it was unacceptable US was bombing 2 countries - he made it 7 (lucky number, I guess).
Obama administration has destroyed countless innocent lives, by supporting coups in foreign countries and basically destroying countries like Lybia, Syria etc.
Yes, Trump is a filthy rich business man with questionable morals and motivations - but Obama and Clinton are warmongers and war criminals to me. Yet Trump gets crucified for wanting to build a Mexican wall or saying a bad word a decade ago. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
I'm not an American, so I don't care what Americans do in their country (and neither should they intervene in other countries uninvited) - but Trumps foreign policy looks more attractive to me. I welcome his intentions of being friends with Russians, I know a lot about Russian culture and people - believe me, you can reason with them and they don't want war, but if you try to 'show them their place' (like Clinton advocated) they will react.
I guess we will have to wait and see.
I think he gets more hatred than he deserves.
When Obama was running the election, he said it was unacceptable US was bombing 2 countries - he made it 7 (lucky number, I guess).
Obama administration has destroyed countless innocent lives, by supporting coups in foreign countries and basically destroying countries like Lybia, Syria etc.
Yes, Trump is a filthy rich business man with questionable morals and motivations - but Obama and Clinton are warmongers and war criminals to me. Yet Trump gets crucified for wanting to build a Mexican wall or saying a bad word a decade ago. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
I'm not an American, so I don't care what Americans do in their country (and neither should they intervene in other countries uninvited) - but Trumps foreign policy looks more attractive to me. I welcome his intentions of being friends with Russians, I know a lot about Russian culture and people - believe me, you can reason with them and they don't want war, but if you try to 'show them their place' (like Clinton advocated) they will react.
I guess we will have to wait and see.
T
tands
Guest
Third world, first world.
All the countries around the world that produce economic migrants, be it Asia, Africa or Central America.
The West is the "we".
Populations are no different from other resources, they have to be sustainable in their country of origin. Most of us have realized that we need to be less of a burden on the world's resources, climate change etc, etc. Exactly the same logic applies to populations. Governments in these countries need to provide pensions so that parents need not produce so many children to look after them in their old age. Simply exporting surplus populations passes the burden to others and its not sustainable.
DaveP
