economy

[cyrano]

These PACE loan programs end up being local state programs and small contractors often originate the loans, to help homeowners pay for some expensive upgrades they are selling/installing. Complaints are being investigated that contractors misrepresented the costs of these loans, some claiming that tax breaks would completely pay off the loans. In some cases there can be tax deductions but not for all upgrades, and for a deduction to be valuable you first have to have enough income to offset that some older retirees don't. 

Well, can't stop free enterprise, can we?

The next PACE related item that is being investigated is that loan bundlers have been making payments for some homeowners in arrears. While this seems very generous of them, they are not being charitable. In fact they have bundled these loans into larger securities that are then resold (not unlike the bundled mortgages in 2007/8 economic collapse that were mispriced for risk). By making payment for homeowners in default, they can then claim that the bundled debt is all still performing, when it isn't.  :

A Swiss scientific study showed that the one profession that would make anyone dishonest, is banking.

And, yes it's ironic that it is a Swiss study

#3 Not strictly economic but definitely an economic angle. The kurdish region of Iraq held their independance referendum despite opposition from the central government in Baghdad, and pretty much every surrounding country. I am not sure what everybody is afraid of while there are significant kurdish minorities in Iran, Syria, Turkey, etc. 

The economic angle in this is that the Kurdish region has their own oil reserves that they sell through a pipeline running into Turkey to generate revenue outside control of the Baghdad government. So while Turkey opposes their independence they don't mind buying the cheap oil. (Turkey reportedly bought cheap oil from ISIS too).

93% voted for independence so this issue will not fade away quietly.

Turkey is a pita for everyone. Loyal only to emperor Erdogan. The rest of the infideles is in jail, dead, or out of reach.

PS: More reports about the russian ad purchases. They apparently were supporting both sides of contentious issues to stir up division and chaos. It reminds me of the ghostbusters movie where evil spirits gained energy from public anger and discord.  Sounds like they were just being russian and attacking democratic systems in general (Putin is ex-KGB).

They are being thrown on a pile. More than one group was buying and there's plenty of evidence the Trump camp was buying Bulgarian students to post comments everywhere @ 10 cents a post.

That is not the question, however. The real question is why the three letter agencies, with their enormous tracking capabilities, remained stumm.

An example which might help explain why, is the following: A few years ago, one of the three letter agencies offered to test all of the state's online facilities. Most stated accepted the offer, paid up and assumedly got a report. Four or five didn't. One recruited a private firm to handle pentesting. While it was going on, it was noticed that another pentest was going on, from CIA ip's. Without consent. The govt hacking the govt and not telling anyone.

In cases like this, it seems nobody cares about the law. No fingers get burned, as long as the top levels get executed monthly for no reason at all.

 

[JohnRoberts]

disclaimer that I work in engine research, so might be more than any of you care about.

Octane number measures the fuels resistance to autoignition and that's all. It doesn't measure flamespeed or how fast or efficient combustion will be.

Flame speed was how it was explained to me several decades ago and it is consistent with the remedy of retarding timing to mitigate engine knock (and damage).

In my '93 mustang after I added the supercharger I had to worry about detonation (your autoignition) when high boost increases cylinder air and fuel charge.  The remedy to prevent melting my pistons was a special ignition system that sensed manifold pressure and retarded the timing after boost reached a high enough pressure. I don't like to argue with the expert but if it wasn't flame speed being increased by denser charge and higher temperature, I do not see how retarding the timing would resolve the problem dynamically?

In the 70s or 80s some car makers added ping/knock detectors to engine blocks (piezo I think)  and they would retard the timing whenever they detected the telltale sound of bad (low octane) gas causing piston knock.

It may be a matter of semantics, yes low octane gas is more likely to "autoignite" (because it burns faster). Engine knock can be caused by an incorrect (too much) timing advance setting. Back in the day it was not unusual to get a tank of bad gas (low octane). It would knock when you depressed the gas pedal (advancing the timing ). 

In SI engines, autoignition is apparent as knocking.  Engine knock is abnormal combustion where the end gas autoignites ahead of the flamefront causing high intensity pressure waves to bounce around creating noise (pinging) and sometimes damage. 

Pre-ignition causes a pressure wave to build up too soon, actually opposing the upward piston motion. The pressure wave needs to occur after top dead center so it pushed down the piston that is already moving down.  Pinging can cause damage to bearings, piston pins, and the pistons themselves from heat and stress.

Another source of pre-ignition is glowing carbon deposits in the cylinder head that can act like a glow plug to ignite the charge prematurely, even rarer an exposed edge of a metal head gasket can glow red hot and pre-ignite gas, but this suggests a poorly fitted head gasket that should be rare (I never saw one).

The key engine design factor affected by autoignition in spark ignited engines is compression ratio (CR).  High CR SI engines require high octane fuel to avoid knocking.  Pure ethanol actually has a higher octane number than isooctane, ~113, so is even more resistant to knocking. Pure isooctane (C8H18) measures 100 and pure heptane (C7H16) measures 0.  Since Diesel engines are compression ignited, they want a low octane fuel, i.e. pure heptane. The Cetane number is used to characterize fuels in Diesel CI engines and is the inverse of octane number.

It might be worth note that diesel engines do not use spark plugs but depend solely on self ignition with high compression ratios (PV=nRT) to ignite the fuel charge (they may use glow plugs for cold starting). 

What do these numbers mean? It is just a reference. To measure the Octane number of a fuel, say gas blend A, a variable CR engine is run with the gas blend A and a mix of isooctane and heptane. The blend of isooctane and heptane that matches the knocking CR of the blend gives the octane number.
High CR makes an engine more efficient, i.e. more power out of the same amount of fuel. BUT, running high octane vs low octane fuel in the same engine will give no difference in efficiency or power (due to the octane number anyway).  The amount of energy available in the fuel is given by the heating value (isooctane and heptane are nearly the same, ethanol is lower). The amount of power extracted from the fuel is given by the indicated work done on the piston : pressure times the change in volume, PdV. The Otto cycle describes the ideal thermodynamic process of a SI reciprocating engine.

For an SI engine to run well you want the ignition delay to be short and the flamespeed to be high. both ignition delay and laminar flamespeed are functions of the fuel properties, air fuel ratio, and Temp and Pressure.

Old engines might run well with premium gas, but it is probably due to other characteristics than the Octane number.

Not knocking is always a good thing, but higher octane than the timing is optimized for is wasted money.  In one of my old cars (from the 60s) I had my choke cable connected to my distributor so i could retard it enough to start, then advance it again after running to make max power... Too much timing advance at cranking speed can make a motor really hard to start, not a problem with modern ECU that can tweak all that stuff as needed.

JR

PS while before my time I think the old model T had a timing lever to adjust timing on the dashboard, but that predates the mechanical centrifugal timing advance built into later distributors, not to mention the vacuum advance that senses manifold vacuum (correlated with  denser charge, when throttle is opened).  When throttle is closed, manifold vacuum is high and timing is retarded, when throttle opened vacuum drops and timing is advanced.

 

[JohnRoberts]

And, yes it's ironic that it is a Swiss study

;D

Turkey is a pita for everyone. Loyal only to emperor Erdogan. The rest of the infideles is in jail, dead, or out of reach.

one hollywood type is doing a movie about the armenian situation (WWI)... not going to be appreciated by Erdogan. 

They are being thrown on a pile. More than one group was buying and there's plenty of evidence the Trump camp was buying Bulgarian students to post comments everywhere @ 10 cents a post.

it seems that would be newsworthy

That is not the question, however. The real question is why the three letter agencies, with their enormous tracking capabilities, remained stumm.

yes.... it's called the "deep state"....  The FBI has actually refused to turn over documents requested by investigators, IRS has routinely stonewalled info requests.

An example which might help explain why, is the following: A few years ago, one of the three letter agencies offered to test all of the state's online facilities. Most stated accepted the offer, paid up and assumedly got a report. Four or five didn't. One recruited a private firm to handle pentesting. While it was going on, it was noticed that another pentest was going on, from CIA ip's. Without consent. The govt hacking the govt and not telling anyone.

In cases like this, it seems nobody cares about the law. No fingers get burned, as long as the top levels get executed monthly for no reason at all.

Yes it seems the same laws do not apply to the political elite, while the constitution says otherwise.

On the list to fix... but won't be easy to get bureaucrats (or congress) to give up perqs.

JR

 

[dmp]

Flame speed was how it was explained to me several decades ago and it is consistent with the remedy of retarding timing to mitigate engine knock (and damage).

There is an optimal timing for an engine where the indicated work (and power) on the piston is maximized.  At that timing, the pressure rise of combustion occurs right at TDC and occurs at constant volume (ideally) so it is vertical on a Pressure - Volume plot. Therefore, the expansion (change in Volume) occurs with the highest pressures, maximizing PdV. That timing also has the highest temperatures in the cylinder from thermodynamics. So because of the high pressure and temperature, that condition will be the most likely to autoignite, because the ignition delay is shorter at high temp/pressure (and flamespeed is higher). So retarding the combustion timing is effective at reducing knock (and emissions formation, incidentally) - but at the expense of engine power and efficiency. 

So you are not off track in your reasoning, but it is more ignition delay than flamespeed.  But the octane number is measured in a variable compression ratio engine as I described and is not directly relatable to ignition delay (as far as I know). Ignition delay is measured as well, but in shock tubes or other experiments.  But high octane means long ignition delays. Ignition delay measures how long it takes for a mixture at a certain T&P to start reacting (chemical heat release). 

In my '93 mustang after I added the supercharger I had to worry about detonation (your autoignition) when high boost increases cylinder air and fuel charge.  The remedy to prevent melting my pistons was a special ignition system that sensed manifold pressure and retarded the timing after boost reached a high enough pressure. I don't like to argue with the expert but if it wasn't flame speed being increased by denser charge and higher temperature, I do not see how retarding the timing would resolve the problem dynamically?

Semantics - ignition delay, not flamespeed. The propensity of the fuel to autoignite is higher at higher T & P.

SI engines don't rely on a short ignition delay for combustion like Diesels - they have a spark that ignites a small volume with the high spark energy. Once ignited, that kernel grows and the turbulent flamespeed takes over (wrinkled flame front) .  So interestingly, good combustion in a SI engine relies on good flamespeeds, while good combustion in a Diesel (mixing controlled) relies on short ignition delay (and flamespeed doesn't matter).

Knock can be triggered by hot spots, lube oil, or can simply be end gas detonation. My dad had a MGA in the 1950's that was spark ignited, but once shut off would continue to run for awhile in the driveway, which he said was called 'Dieseling'. 
I've only ever heard of that phrase from him (never in the engine research community ha)

It might be worth note that diesel engines do not use spark plugs but depend solely on self ignition with high compression ratios (PV=nRT)

Yes, Diesels autoignite from compression and follow a different cycle as SI engines (the "Diesel cycle"). Combustion occurs at constant pressure (ideally), instead of constant volume. Diesels are often described as mixing controlled combustion, because the fuel is injected near TDC and burns about as fast as it can mix with the air.

Engine compression is approximately isentropic. Isentropic compression means PV^gamma is constant, where gamma is the specific heat ratio (gas property).  So P_tdc = P_bdc*CR^gamma
Combined with the ideal gas law (PV=nRT) and you have a basic description of engine compression/expansion thermodynamics.

 

[cyrano]

And now this is in:

http://www.sos.ca.gov/administration/news-releases-and-advisories/2017-news-releases-and-advisories/dhs-incorrectly-notified-california-secretary-state-about-russian-scanning/

It seems the DHS was lying about California...

Oh, and Wisconsin too, probably.

How utterly idiot must you be to think nobody would find out?

 

[mattiasNYC]

The kurdish region of Iraq held their independance referendum despite opposition from the central government in Baghdad, and pretty much every surrounding country. I am not sure what everybody is afraid of while there are significant kurdish minorities in Iran, Syria, Turkey, etc. 

Nation-states aren't too concerned with the freedom and self-determination of other peoples. Independence is fine when it's a people or end result we like, not so much when it's not in our interest. That's how it goes.

 

[JohnRoberts]

There is an optimal timing for an engine where the indicated work (and power) on the piston is maximized.  At that timing, the pressure rise of combustion occurs right at TDC and occurs at constant volume (ideally) so it is vertical on a Pressure - Volume plot. Therefore, the expansion (change in Volume) occurs with the highest pressures, maximizing PdV. That timing also has the highest temperatures in the cylinder from thermodynamics. So because of the high pressure and temperature, that condition will be the most likely to autoignite, because the ignition delay is shorter at high temp/pressure (and flamespeed is higher). So retarding the combustion timing is effective at reducing knock (and emissions formation, incidentally) - but at the expense of engine power and efficiency. 

So you are not off track in your reasoning, but it is more ignition delay than flamespeed.  But the octane number is measured in a variable compression ratio engine as I described and is not directly relatable to ignition delay (as far as I know). Ignition delay is measured as well, but in shock tubes or other experiments.  But high octane means long ignition delays. Ignition delay measures how long it takes for a mixture at a certain T&P to start reacting (chemical heat release). 
Semantics - ignition delay, not flamespeed. The propensity of the fuel to autoignite is higher at higher T & P.

SI engines don't rely on a short ignition delay for combustion like Diesels - they have a spark that ignites a small volume with the high spark energy. Once ignited, that kernel grows and the turbulent flamespeed takes over (wrinkled flame front) .  So interestingly, good combustion in a SI engine relies on good flamespeeds, while good combustion in a Diesel (mixing controlled) relies on short ignition delay (and flamespeed doesn't matter).

without getting too esoteric, combustion chamber shape (like the iconic hemispherical combustion chamber) can affect turbulence and mixing for complete fuel combustion.  My current daily (weekly) driver is a 4 valve DOHC and the intake runners have a secondary set of butterflies that close off half the intake runners at low RPM to keep intake runner air velocity up, for decent mixing and combustion inside the combustion chamber.

Knock can be triggered by hot spots, lube oil, or can simply be end gas detonation. My dad had a MGA in the 1950's that was spark ignited, but once shut off would continue to run for awhile in the driveway, which he said was called 'Dieseling'. 
I've only ever heard of that phrase from him (never in the engine research community ha)

I have heard that term too, used to describe run-on after ignition is killed. I have even seen it in small motors (like chain saws when overheated). Generally not a sign of good engine tune/health.

Yes, Diesels autoignite from compression and follow a different cycle as SI engines (the "Diesel cycle"). Combustion occurs at constant pressure (ideally), instead of constant volume. Diesels are often described as mixing controlled combustion, because the fuel is injected near TDC and burns about as fast as it can mix with the air.

Engine compression is approximately isentropic. Isentropic compression means PV^gamma is constant, where gamma is the specific heat ratio (gas property).  So P_tdc = P_bdc*CR^gamma
Combined with the ideal gas law (PV=nRT) and you have a basic description of engine compression/expansion thermodynamics.

I wonder what will happen to diesels in europe. it seems like every day another company is getting charged with cheating on emissions (I think Chrysler/Fiat just settled with regulators). Some EU car makers are just going 100% EV for new models.

I wonder what your take is on the mass emissions cheating, as you work in that community? It seems like a widely held secret that everyone but the government regulators/public knew was going on.

JR 

[update] It turns out that EU oil industry has invested a ton into upgrading the  diesel refineries, just in time for the market to become displeased with all the air quality cheating. It turns out they can sell some of the excess diesel for use on oceangoing ships, but definitely poor timing of that investment.  [/update]

 

[JohnRoberts]

Nation-states aren't too concerned with the freedom and self-determination of other peoples. Independence is fine when it's a people or end result we like, not so much when it's not in our interest. That's how it goes.

By whose interest is served?  Nominally the stability of Iraq is still fragile with sunni minority having to adapt to majority shia rule. The Kurds have always been the odd man (tribe) out in Iraq, but very effective fighters for the iraqi army. Their neighbors seem concerned about the implications for their own kurdish minorities.  I recall years ago watching then senator Biden propose a 3 state solution for Iraq.

Catalonia is watching this with interest.

Maybe next California will succeed from the US (they have been talking about it, but it is hard to tell then they are serious.)

JR

 

[dmp]

without getting too esoteric, combustion chamber shape (like the iconic hemispherical combustion chamber) can affect turbulence and mixing for complete fuel combustion. 

Most engines are going to a combustion chamber shape that minimizes surface area to get the highest efficiency. (more surface area = more heat transfer loss).

High charge motion and turbulence is key to reliable combustion, so for next generation high efficiency engines (highly dilute,  low temp combustion), a good design will be important.  High cyclic variation (running rough) is the major challenge for next generation engines.

I wonder what your take is on the mass emissions cheating, as you work in that community? It seems like a widely held secret that everyone but the government regulators/public knew was going on.

I work pretty far from production. Sometimes it seems research has next to no connection to production  ;D

Cheating on emissions has happened for decades and is a cost reduction or competitive decision (VW was both). Regulation needs to carry a big stick to create a disincentive.  A lot of people could look at the VW Diesels and wonder how they were building cars without SCRs (NOx aftertreatment), great MPG, and still somehow meet the NOx regulations. Suspecting they couldn't do what they were claiming is different than knowing they were cheating. An independent lab caught them by testing one of their engines. I'm surprised competitors aren't testing each others products to try to throw them under the bus.  most government regulation is underfunded to really ensure compliance (do we really want to spend a bunch of tax dollars on it?).

 

[JohnRoberts]

Most engines are going to a combustion chamber shape that minimizes surface area to get the highest efficiency. (more surface area = more heat transfer loss).

High charge motion and turbulence is key to reliable combustion, so for next generation high efficiency engines (highly dilute,  low temp combustion), a good design will be important.  High cyclic variation (running rough) is the major challenge for next generation engines.

I thought the honda CVCC was interesting, while a little complex.

I work pretty far from production. Sometimes it seems research has next to no connection to production  ;D

lag in IC technology is very long due to scale of manufacturing and cost of mistakes. May become academic if (when) they get batteries cheaper.

Cheating on emissions has happened for decades and is a cost reduction or competitive decision (VW was both). Regulation needs to carry a big stick to create a disincentive.  A lot of people could look at the VW Diesels and wonder how they were building cars without SCRs (NOx aftertreatment), great MPG, and still somehow meet the NOx regulations. Suspecting they couldn't do what they were claiming is different than knowing they were cheating. An independent lab caught them by testing one of their engines. I'm surprised competitors aren't testing each others products to try to throw them under the bus.  most government regulation is underfunded to really ensure compliance (do we really want to spend a bunch of tax dollars on it?).

I suspect the competition did, and when they discovered that VW was cheating, copied them.  There is probably also some common consultants that worked for VW and other car companies. Reportedly illegal level diesel emissions from Volvo, Renault, Mercedes, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroen, BMW, Mazda, Fiat, Ford,GM, and Peugeot. A better question is who didn't cheat?

JR

 

[dmp]

The Mazda HCCI engine coming out 2019 will be interesting.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The Mazda HCCI engine coming out 2019 will be interesting.

Mazda was not afraid to take chances with their rotary wankel engine that had issues (people expect even longer life these days from IC engines than 100k miles)

Interesting... plenty of room for improvement, but hard to do it different and still deliver high durability and reliability.

JR

 

[mattiasNYC]

By whose interest is served?  Nominally the stability of Iraq is still fragile with sunni minority having to adapt to majority shia rule. The Kurds have always been the odd man (tribe) out in Iraq, but very effective fighters for the iraqi army. Their neighbors seem concerned about the implications for their own kurdish minorities.  I recall years ago watching then senator Biden propose a 3 state solution for Iraq.

When it comes to instability I think the three main driving forces are religion, greed and "ethnicity" (or "race", whatever). The thing is that grievances won't disappear until justice is made, because people tend to not forget and have a hard time forgiving injustices. I think being denied self-determination is close to a perceived injustice. So when peoples see other peoples being supported in their fight for independence they feel energized or at least feel that their own cause is just.

In the case of the Kurds of course we could argue that it would destabilize the region if Iraqi Kurds got independence given that Kurds also live in other countries. On the other hand, perhaps all nations with Kurds on the border with Iraq would get more peace and quiet just giving up that territory to a new Kurdish state.

I guess really my point was as simple as there being no good reason to have any opinion about this based on any kind of morality or principle basis seeing that we're so incredibly selfish and self-serving and thus hypocritical on especially this issue (I'm not pointing at you now btw, just people in general). Independence is fine for some people, generally people we like, and others that we don't like should stick to their nations, or if they risk messing with our stuff. So, good for the Jewish, good for the Ukraine, good for Georgia.... not for the Kurds, not for South Ossetia, not for ethnic Russians in Crimea.... etc....

Catalonia is watching this with interest.

Possibly. Spain does have the advantage of having fairly well informed people though and I'm sure they've seen not only people in eastern Europe struggle for independence but people on other continents as well. So coupled with the Basque separatists and the people of Galicia I don't really think they care too much about what happens to the Kurds to be honest. I think they'll look more domestically for cues as to what to do.

Either way, a very interesting development in both cases (Spain and Iraq).

Maybe next California will succeed from the US (they have been talking about it, but it is hard to tell then they are serious.)

JR

California.... lol... It's got sunshine though...

 

[JohnRoberts]

I think I may have connected a dot wrt the controversial deductibility of state taxes from federal. 

Coincidentally some of the highest "state tax" states, get less of their federal taxes back...  (MS a relatively low tax state, gets proportionately more from the federal government). At first glance this seems logical that the states who get less, get the larger tax deduction, so pay less to the federal government...

We could use a little more sunlight on this to avoid the knee jerk us-them (red state -blue state) polarization.  While this appears to support the state tax deduction... One alternative is to eliminate the deduction, then increase the share of spending in those high tax states... which will not reduce federal spending. And running more tax revenue through the federal government increases waste.

Unexpectedly this shifts me to favor keeping the state tax deduction. (never too old to change my mind).   

JR

 

[dmp]

I think I may have connected a dot wrt the controversial deductibility of state taxes from federal.

Coincidentally some of the highest "state tax" states, get less of their federal taxes back...  (MS a relatively low tax state, gets proportionately more from the federal government). At first glance this seems logical that the states who get less, get the larger tax deduction, so pay less to the federal government...

Interesting theory, but I'm not sure the numbers would work out. The rural states you are talking about actually get more money back than they even pay in - i.e. they are being subsidized. The high "state tax" states not only pay their higher local property and state taxes, but then they pay Federal taxes and get significantly less back since money is going to the rural areas that can't support themselves. Getting rid of the deductibility doesn't change the negative to a positive.  It's just how much do they pay in above what they get back.
The numbers are available to actually crunch though - I might be wrong. 
Not allowing the deduction is a strange 'double' taxation. You have to pay taxes on money you make, just to pay more taxes with it.  Anyway, it is looking pretty unlikely the Republicans are going to find any sacred cow to slaughter in the tax code, to magically make their tax cut for the very rich possible.  Lowering the corporate rate would be fine but they should make up the revenue by targeting business income - either cap gains or a regular income bracket. It needs to be beyond the poor and middle class though, since the very rich have taken almost all of everyone else's money already.
The "trickle down", "create more jobs" arguments are total fantasy. Business margins have doubled in the last few decades and business profits are through the roof. It hasn't trickled down.
Wages only go up with supply & demand (econ101) - globalization and automation have nullified that.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Interesting theory, but I'm not sure the numbers would work out.

I do not suggest any kind of equilibrium, just that it (the local tax deduction) works opposite the current imbalance to reduce it.

The rural states you are talking about actually get more money back than they even pay in - i.e. they are being subsidized. The high "state tax" states not only pay their higher local property and state taxes, but then they pay Federal taxes and get significantly less back since money is going to the rural areas that can't support themselves.

hmm  that is pretty much what I said... Poor states (like MS) get back more from the federal government than they pay in...  High tax states like CT, NY, NJ, do not...  By definition if MS gets more, somebody must get less. 

BUT states like CT,NY, and NJ get to deduct their very high local tax payments from their federal tax bills (actually reducing reported income for tax purposes), somewhat reducing their contribution to the federal government.

Getting rid of the deductibility doesn't change the negative to a positive.  It's just how much do they pay in above what they get back.

no getting rid of the deductibility makes the imbalance worse...  I thought I was saying that.

The numbers are available to actually crunch though - I might be wrong. 

since I didn't make specific claims I don't know what there is to prove, other than it is shifting things in a better (?) direction.

Not allowing the deduction is a strange 'double' taxation.

one of many in our tax system.....  like taxing investment gains from money you already paid taxes on before investing (why I have a Roth IRA).

You have to pay taxes on money you make, just to pay more taxes with it.  Anyway, it is looking pretty unlikely the Republicans are going to find any sacred cow to slaughter in the tax code, to magically make their tax cut for the very rich possible.  Lowering the corporate rate would be fine but they should make up the revenue by targeting business income - either cap gains or a regular income bracket. It needs to be beyond the poor and middle class though, since the very rich have taken almost all of everyone else's money already.
The "trickle down", "create more jobs" arguments are total fantasy. Business margins have doubled in the last few decades and business profits are through the roof. It hasn't trickled down.
Wages only go up with supply & demand (econ101) - globalization and automation have nullified that.

Personal tax cuts are just bribing us with our own money. They need to reform the business tax rates to stop the exodus of capital away from this country.  Capital in free markets will always pursue higher return which for business is not automatically the US right now due to relatively higher marginal rates.

The class warfare screed is addressing a symptom not cause of modern society.  I fear it will get worse if we insist on keeping score that way. We need to improve the opportunity for all people to improve themselves, and earn basic necessities , without killing the golden goose.

AI will force even more disruption of even white collar industries.  Danger Will Robinson...

JR

PS: What should be the news here is that I now support deducting local taxes from reported federal income, I didn't always favor such tax policy.

 

[dmp]

one of many in our tax system.....  like taxing investment gains from money you already paid taxes on before investing (why I have a Roth IRA).

Well, by that argument someone who uses savings they already paid taxes on to pay for more education shouldn't have to pay taxes on the higher wages they earn in the future.

In those two analogies, the person who invested in education to make higher wages will pay a higher tax rate than the person that invested in Capital. That is a real problem with the tax code.

PS: What should be the news here is that I now support deducting local taxes from reported federal income, I didn't always favor such tax policy.

Your evolving beliefs aren't news?!?!  ;D

Anyway, it is going to be hard to find revenue to pay for the tax cuts they want. Cutting the corporate rate & amt alone will go over the 1.5 trillion they've allocated and they need to put something in for regular people to make it palatable to the masses.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Well, by that argument someone who uses savings they already paid taxes on to pay for more education shouldn't have to pay taxes on the higher wages they earn in the future.

That ASSumes going to modern college makes somebody worth more.. : not sure that will hold up over time, but there are more specialized functional education programs that might be considered a valid self investment (ranging from welding to computer programming).

In those two analogies, the person who invested in education to make higher wages will pay a higher tax rate than the person that invested in Capital. That is a real problem with the tax code.

It seems different people have different problems with the tax code based on personal expectations.

For many years after our founding,  the federal government was fully funded by fees and import duties.  I am not a big fan of huge government spending as the solution for everything.

Your evolving beliefs aren't news?!?!  ;D

it was news to me and unexpected (by me).

Anyway, it is going to be hard to find revenue to pay for the tax cuts they want. Cutting the corporate rate & amt alone will go over the 1.5 trillion they've allocated and they need to put something in for regular people to make it palatable to the masses.

I repeat a personal tax cut is not paramount (to me), correcting the disadvantageous domestic business tax rates can save US  jobs and future business activity here.

While business tax rates are not a very sympathetic topic, IMO they are important.

JR

[edit] coincidentally and perhaps ironically the border adjustment tax is not unlike our very old school reliance on import duties to fund the federal government. The BAT appears to be effectively killed by lobbying by merchandise resellers. [/edit]

 

[dmp]

That ASSumes going to modern college makes somebody worth more.. : not sure that will hold up over time, but there are more specialized functional education programs that might be considered a valid self investment (ranging from welding to computer programming).

Maybe you're your joking with the smiley face, but it surprisingly has become a talking point, particularly in Republican media (propaganda?).
In 2017 a majority of Republicans felt Colleges and Universities have a negative effect on the status of the country.
The idea that college degrees are all in useless skills (.i.e. "basketweaving" etc).
But in reality, it takes about 30 seconds to find some real data. Higher education on average means higher lifetime earnings. Not to say it is suited for everybody, or every field can be pursued by any individual, but data is data.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Maybe you're your joking with the smiley face, but it surprisingly has become a talking point, particularly in Republican media (propaganda?).
In 2017 a majority of Republicans felt Colleges and Universities have a negative effect on the status of the country.
The idea that college degrees are all in useless skills (.i.e. "basketweaving" etc).
But in reality, it takes about 30 seconds to find some real data. Higher education on average means higher lifetime earnings. Not to say it is suited for everybody, or every field can be pursued by any individual, but data is data.

Once again I guess I wasn't clear, I am speculating about whether that relationship would continue ("not sure that will hold up over time"), and the future worth of a degree due to current climate on many college campuses (safe spaces and suppressions of different or new  ideas).

I can not speculate about what the majority of republicans felt(??), but I have openly voiced my concern about young adults saddled with many thousands in student loan debt that they would have to pay down before buying homes and settling down. Many don't even understand loan basics, not paying back in a timely fashion, allowing interest to be capitalized making the debt owed even larger.

A recent trend in education is short courses targeted toward employable skills that seems eminently logical and productive. (I mentioned welding and programming, but I suspect there will be more if this proves valuable).

It is a classic mistake of the political class to ASSume if something is good, more will always be better.  Home ownership was associated with better outcomes, so they put their thumb on the scale making it so easy to buy homes that the housing bubble occurred when many people bought homes they literally could not afford.  A similar shift in college lending had made it easier for people to attend college, but I have seen reports of a dumbing down of curriculum. 

Another classic mistake is ASSuming there is only one variable controlling a change, apparently elementary and HS education has also degraded to the point where early years in college are consumed by taking remedial courses for many.

JR

PS: If you are looking to me for talking points you might be disspointed