Favorite small value blocking capacitors?

[CJ]

ok we found a scope shot of the good cap, now all we have to do is find a scope shot of the bad cap in the same circuit location,

you can see a hint of the distortion on the upper right crest.

 

[JohnRoberts]

"

Here's the analogy:

Presumably you can taste the difference between extremely similar batches of wine grapes, even when others cannot.  Likewise, there are people who can hear the difference between (*wildly* different) capacitors compositions within the same circuit, even when those capacitors are of the same value and "ought" to perform identically. 

I make no such claim. In fact regarding audibility of components I learned decades ago that I could measure differences that I couldn't hear, and never heard a difference that I couldn't measure (while I did roll some of my own custom test equipment back in the 70s).
=====
In fact there are people who hear differences that aren't there.  : Which is why I mentioned double blind listening tests with statistical significance (a difficult PIA, which is why I prefer null testing to first determine if there is a difference).  I also make a point of not arguing with people on the WWW about what they say they hear, it can't be easily proved one way or the other.

Clearly you would agree, since you've spent time advising folks about the parts spec in their commercial designs?  So then why all the trolling from folks when I show up to discuss the differences between caps?  Some of the replies on this thread have been downright rude.  JR, I see you have more to offer here than simple trolling and argumentation by contradiction and I respect your thoughts and experience.

Life on the interwebs... We have rules against personal attacks, but attacking ideas are fair game. This is not a safe space but better behaved than many around the WWW.

If you have so much experience spec'ing caps, I would love for you to answer my topic questions in earnest.  Only two respondents have done that so far, by actually recommending a cap.  Everyone loves to sling the easy stock refutations, but nobody actually wants to respond to the stated thread topic?  I'm asking specifically about 100pf-1000pf value capsule coupling caps for a LDC mic. 

I don't design mics, but I have used truckloads of capacitors in decades of designing many audio products. My favorite small signal caps back in the day were polystyrene, but they do not survive modern manufacturing processes.  Today the goto capacitor for linearity is NPO-COG. (Which I already answered.)

An additional note to the naysayers at large: you seem to approach this topic with quite a big chip on your shoulder.  Please take a step back, pause, and calm down a little.

I'm pretty calm... you are the one who asked to delete your post.  8)

I'm not trying to brainwash you with boutique capacitor mumbo-jumbo.  If you don't have an answer for me, then just politely move on. 

I am trying to be informative.. Like when I first wrote about Capacitors back in the 1980s.  Objective metrics exist that fairly characterize the significant behavior of capacitors.

Is this really how this community intends to comport itself?  Telling me to perform double blind tests simply avoids my questions.  And yes, I have performed double blind tests to guide me in my parts choices so far.  If you wish to create a harangue about testing procedures, please start your own thread.

nah...  I'll just watch you keep digging your hole...

JR 

 

[ruffrecords]

It has recently been discovered that there are a number of genes that determine how good our sense of smell is. It is a fact that some people are able to smell things that most people cannot. I saw a report of a woman who can reliably detect certain kinds of cancer.

Maybe there are genes that influence our ability to hear. May there are some poor souls who can actually hear a difference in subtle component changes that the rest of us cannot.

Cheers

Ian

 

[moamps]

...Here's my question to those who care to chime in: in a market rife with excellent foil capacitors, what are our best options for extremely small value caps?  What are your favorites?  There don't seem to be many options out there and I'd love to know which ones I may have missed...All the other small value caps seem to be just variations on polystyrene, silver mica, or ceramic--all of which I doubt offer anything competitive with the copper and silver foil caps that I love.

My favorite capacitor type in a capsule coupling position is cooper foil polystyrene. Soshin silver mica and ERO KC are the next.
I would like to try TOSHIN PPSD http://www.toshinkk.co.jp/product/productPDF/P70_PPSD_PPSO.pdf
when time permits.

 

[Newmarket]

The big brains have it figured out, so it's time to close the thread: it doesn't matter what cap you pick because they all sound the same. 

In other news, all wine tastes like grapes, so please don't use flowery descriptions like "leather," "gunpowder," "minearality."  We did some research and it tuns out that it's all made from grapes, you dummy!

No one has said that all capacitors perform equally. X7R will introduce more distortion than NP0 etc etc.  The problem is that simply stating that a certain capacitor improves a piece of kit enormously is just kind of meaningless without some sort of reference.

wrt wine - they taste differently due to different chemical compositions. Not that hard to analyse.

btw - those little 'spun polyester' type capacitors that can be used for the mic coupling application referenced do perform well but beware that they can be microphonic (which might be nice

 

[JMFahey]

In particular, I'm tinkering with condenser mic capsule coupling caps, which usually call for extremely small values on the order of 100pf-1000pf.

Not "extremely small" by any account.
In fact they are *large*  considering the extremely high impedances involved.

All the other small value caps seem to be just variations on polystyrene, silver mica, or ceramic--all of which I doubt offer anything competitive with the copper and silver foil caps that I love.  I usually don't love the sound of polymer caps. 

Ok, maybe you do.
But it will lead to a fruitless conversation because "Love"  is an very subjective and undefined "parameter".

Also, and here's a question specifically for the capacitor mic experts, what effect does the capsule coupling cap value have in the sound of the mic?

*Value* , on its own, means little to nothing.
Now *value*, associated with an *impedance*  will define some time constant or cutoff /turnover frequency which will definitely impact sound,  if it´s within the Audio band or anywhere near it.

I'm working from the assumption that a lower value cap will be more transparent, all other things being equal.

 
Not by itself, now if the  source or load impedance connected to it cause different turnover frequencies, and they are within the Audio band, yes, you will hear a variation.

This reasoning leads me to wonder whether a smaller valued, lower quality cap, might actually outperform a higher valued, higher quality cap in some situations

It won´t "outperform" anything, simply changing parts value will change circuit frequency response.
I wonder why you would use a low quality cap (recycled from a 60´s cheap transistor radio perhaps?) while current commercial caps are incredibly good .
And relatively inexpensive to boot.

--this matter I intend to test by comparing the xxx (1000pf) vs. the xxx (100pf), for instance.

See above comments so I don´t repeat the same all the time.

Hijack alert? ???

I beg your pardon?
All I see is Forum members answering your question.

The big brains have it figured out, so it's time to close the thread: it doesn't matter what cap you pick because they all sound the same. 

Under your above mentioned circuit requirements, yes, all modern made commercially available will sound the same, emphasis on sound.

Won´t comment on your wine analogy because it´s absolutely misplaced and irrelevant in a Tech Forum, let alone applied to what you asked.

Telling me to perform double blind tests simply avoids my questions.

Well, you don´t accept answers which don´t match your preconceived ideas, so suggesting a Scientifically valid test and hope you decide by yourself is State of the Art.

-------------------------

CJ said:
ok we found a scope shot of the good cap, now all we have to do is find a scope shot of the bad cap in the same circuit location,

you can see a hint of the distortion on the upper right crest.

I see it, but what tells you it´s caused by the capacitor and not some distortion already present in the sinewave?
Either from the generator itself or some intermediate stage nonlinearity.

 

[Newmarket]

It has recently been discovered that there are a number of genes that determine how good out=r sense of smell is. It is a fact that some people are able to smell things that most people cannot. I saw a report of a woman who can reliably detect certain kinds of cancer.

Maybe there are genes that influence our ability to hear. May there are some poor souls who can actually hear a difference in subtle component changes that the rest of us cannot.

The sense of smell thing ( or to get fancy - variations in olfactory response ) is interesting. wrt diagnosis I'm awareof it more with dogs / cats. Given their enhanced sense of smell cf humans I guess that's not surprising.

I think the difference wrt capacitors is that if a dog indicates presence of an illness that can then be tested / confirmed medically.
But in some cases we are being asked to accept audible differences due to capacitors that cannot then be confirmed in any meaningful way.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

My favorite capacitor type in a capsule coupling position is cooper foil polystyrene. Soshin silver mica and ERO KC are the next.

Would you care to explain why, and what methodology leads to that conclusion?

 

[moamps]

Would you care to explain why

No. The next question might be why I don't like Guinness. 8) 

and what methodology leads to that conclusion

There was no any repetitive scientific methodology involved,  just extensive listening  tests (this is also sort of scientific methodology, isn't?) during designing and building some tube microphones based on SDC as CK1, M94, B&K 4133, 45, 65 and LDC as CK12 and M7 like this one:
http://moxtone.com/mU47_U47.html

 

[JohnRoberts]

It has recently been discovered that there are a number of genes that determine how good out=r sense of smell is. It is a fact that some people are able to smell things that most people cannot. I saw a report of a woman who can reliably detect certain kinds of cancer.

Again not apples and oranges (dogs and some animals have remarkable olfactory abilities.)

Indeed human audition is quite variable and even involves learning due to the huge amount of post processing performed by our meat computer. We ignore/discard the majority of raw data received.

Maybe there are genes that influence our ability to hear. May there are some poor souls who can actually hear a difference in subtle component changes that the rest of us cannot.

Cheers

Ian

I have been on this hunt for a very long time.... For the sake of argument, let's say there is some audible difference that some lucky soul  alone can hear.  If this audible difference is real, i.e. makes a physical difference to the signal, we can measure it, characterize it, and manage it.  If it isn't real, it isn't real. (I made my own semi-custom test equipment in the 70s to parse out IMD non-linearity that was not revealed by traditional THD, or SMPTE IMD tests).

I am repeating myself, but a null test can parse out subtle differences, double blind trials (properly executed) can gauge how audible differences are.

There seems to be a sense that there is much unknown and yet to be discovered about audio. Not to be a debbie downer, but audio is a relatively mature technology. About the only major area of audio technology where I see ground breaking development still occuring  is large scale (PA) loudspeakers that are still being improved with measurable objective metrics.

Stereophony (hifi) already involves enough inherent perceptual compromises that listening tests are difficult to keep well controlled. There can still be studio magic in effects generation, but that is a different pursuit (even that has been well explored but modern technology gives us new tools to apply to this.)

JR

 

[Bo Deadly]

There was no any repetitive scientific methodology involved,  just extensive listening  tests (this is also sort of scientific methodology, isn't?)

For something to be declared "scientific" you need statistical significance which basically means that you have data that shows you get a positive result a certain percentage of the time (usually 95%). Meaning you would have to collect at least 20 measurements and get a positive result 19/20 times. And this assumes that the component that is being tested does not influence other things that could affect the result (like the capacitor just has a different capacitance which all do even of the same type).

 

[JohnRoberts]

No. The next question might be why I don't like Guinness. 8) 

I like Guinness stout better than many beers, but never tasted the mother's milk fresh where it's made. I did find Guinness in bottles in Hong Kong so that didn't suck. 

I brew my own beer that blows the doors off what I can buy locally. But that is like home made bread vs store bought, no comparison.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

Two very different kinds of Guinness available here , one in a pint bottle ,  less viscous and more fizz ,slightly less bitter too .
And the kind that comes out of the tap , big creamy head , very thick ,no fizz and with the bitter twang/bite . For me the proper old style pint bottle , or 'old mans' Guinness is the one I prefer .

Theres seems to be quite a lot of plaecebo effect in all this discussion of whats best in terms of caps , but could size ,shape, form factor ,and placement in relation to other components/chassis not influence performance much more than dielectric material ?

A simple test jig to apply signals and measure what comes out the other end surely isnt going to take into account the vagaries of different real world scenarios . Of course in the world of high end hifi and high end studio gear ,its very easy to get parted from your cash by false bottomed promises , then again if your making your own gear why not spend a little more on components even if its only for feelgood factor . If you have the cash to spend and you think you hear a difference, real or percieved why not indulge yourself a little . Ive had a few customers over the years ask advice on swapping out coupling caps in tube amps , and talking about spending bigger and bigger chunks of change on esoteric silver, gold or platinum foils . Its not something I talk up to the customer ,but if they want the job done I can't turn away good paying work  or waste my time telling them theres little or no difference.

 

[moamps]

I brew my own beer that blows the doors off what I can buy locally. But that is like home made bread vs store bought, no comparison.

When I visited the USA for the first time about 15 years ago I was little bit disappointed with the beers which can be find in stores like Walmart, Safeway etc. But everything improved when I found a local brewery in Moab. 8)

 

[abbey road d enfer]

My biggest disappointment is not with beer; I like Coor's Lite and Dos Equis (XX), but cider in the US is a big turn-down. I was in a restaurant in Connecticut, asked for cider and it was strange to say the least. When I complained they told me I should have asked for "hard" cider. OK, lesson learned.
After that I tried what passes for cider in other places, in the end the only one I find (just) acceptable is the Strongbow. Even the "belgian style" Stella Artois tastes like DR Pepper to me.
So now, what about returning to capacitors? 

 

[L´Andratté]

Gotta love Strongbow, like a (old man?) Guinness it´s the kind I only like one or two of, never more...but those are something to look forward to!
Anyone ever tasted Sidra, local from Asturia/Spain? Totally fermented/rotten apple taste but somehow still delicious. Friends send me a box of every season.
Like french Cidre rather low on alcohol, so on a hot day you can start drinking early ;D

Yeah I like capacitors too...

 

[JohnRoberts]

My biggest disappointment is not with beer; I like Coor's Lite

Coors "lite" is redundant, and also affectionately known as rocky mountain pisswater...

and Dos Equis (XX),

I drank too much Dos to complain about it now, but not a great beer (better ad campaign)

but cider in the US is a big turn-down. I was in a restaurant in Connecticut, asked for cider and it was strange to say the least. When I complained they told me I should have asked for "hard" cider. OK, lesson learned.

Alcoholic cider is a relatively new beverage category here (flavored water with booze added), and not remotely the fermented apple cider of yore. Back in the 60s I fermented a gallon of apple cider in my dorm room that kicked it, but over the years it becomes harder to get fresh cider that doesn't have preservatives in it, that kill the yeast.  Ironically perhaps farmers used to ferment surplus apples and apple jack, an apple whisky that came from that surplus fermentation. 

After that I tried what passes for cider in other places, in the end the only one I find (just) acceptable is the Strongbow. Even the "belgian style" Stella Artois tastes like DR Pepper to me.
So now, what about returning to capacitors? 

Beer is better but it's not beer o'clock yet, soon.  8)

JR

PS; I regret never making it belgium to sample the real deal locally, but no so much to make the long ride.  I once brewed a batch of my beer using some still active yeast from the bottom of two belgian tripls I carried back from germany (It turned out great).

 

[Tubetec]

Slightly more cordial atmos now the convo's turned to the demon drink ,
We used have a great selection of English ciders here once upon a time ,but since Bulmers went mass market many of the good dry english ciders arent marketed here anymore . Bulmers is more sickly sweet coulored water ,very little real apple taste .
There are a couple of nice small volume cider producers here ,costly though. My buddy made a few gallons of proper old style cider last year , tastewise it was a revelation ,there was a little sediment in the end ,but partially freezing the bottles then decanting fixed that and upped the % too . I'm just trying out a new Weissbier from Lidl ,Patronus , its a high quality Munchen brau, E1.49 a 500ml bottle and at 5.5% packs a punch too. Most of the 'usual suspect' US beers available here are as you describe John , 'pishwater'. I did try the Sam Adams ,I think its called ,a Bostonian brew ,wasnt bad actually ,a lot more robust flavourwise than the rice beers.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Slightly more cordial atmos now the convo's turned to the demon drink ,
We used have a great selection of English ciders here once upon a time ,but since Bulmers went mass market many of the good dry english ciders arent marketed here anymore . Bulmers is more sickly sweet coulored water ,very little real apple taste .
There are a couple of nice small volume cider producers here ,costly though. My buddy made a few gallons of proper old style cider last year , tastewise it was a revelation ,there was a little sediment in the end ,but partially freezing the bottles then decanting fixed that and upped the % too .

I've made some nice ciders over the years if i can get my hands on some raw unadulterated apple cider, but harder and harder to come by these days.

I'm just trying out a new Weissbier from Lidl ,Patronus , its a high quality Munchen brau, E1.49 a 500ml bottle and at 5.5% packs a punch too.

I never appreciated Weissbier despite too many messes to count. The one time I had a weissbier that hit the spot was in atlanta, ga on the 4th of july with a slice of lemon.  ;D

Most of the 'usual suspect' US beers available here are as you describe John , 'pishwater'. I did try the Sam Adams ,I think its called ,a Bostonian brew ,wasnt bad actually ,a lot more robust flavourwise than the rice beers.

Sam Adams is well above average for a mass market US beer and they make several different styles  (bud is the only US rice beer AFAIK).  Of course the micro brew/pub trend is well established here, but IMO they tend to over hop stuff, maybe so the newbies can taste a difference. IPA is popular (why?).  India Pale Ale is over hopped and high alcohol to survive a long ocean voyage to like India, not to taste good.  :

If you are ever in Hickory I will serve you a proper beer...Somewhere between a stout and a session beer... the one beer to have when you are having 8.  8)

JR

 

[Bo Deadly]

Now the thread has been properly hijacked.