bruno2000
Well-known member
mattiasNYC said:
Sounds like a presidential candidate............
Best,
Bruno2000
Gun Stats
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Sounds like a presidential candidate............
Best,
Bruno2000
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mattiasNYC
Guest
JohnRoberts said:
Just how do you know that's the "vast majority"? Just recently the NYPD has seen several indictments ranging from "low" in the chain to pretty far up. And we regularly see reports of cops taking bribes, extorting, engaging in protection of brothels, operating as a "private escort firm", and using excessive force. And that doesn't even take into account all the bogus claims of resisting arrest, assaulting police officers, disturbing crime scenes etc that all get tossed out and the people walk on those charges.
Just read up on what happened in Brooklyn and then tell me with a straight face that US police doesn't have a widespread problem. This is about more than a few bad apples, and it runs from the top down.
You tell memattiasNYC said:
They are just starting to measure such statistics . Seems like a pretty small fraction compared to non-police breaking the law. But that isn't today's data, numbers are probably up.
JR
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mattiasNYC
Guest
JohnRoberts said:You tell memattiasNYC said:
They are just starting to measure such statistics . Seems like a pretty small fraction compared to non-police breaking the law. But that isn't today's data, numbers are probably up.
JR
That's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to officer Schoolcraft.
You can start by reading part 2 of the series in Village Voice, and then read the rest..:
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/the-nypd-tapes-part-2-6428840
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mattiasNYC
Guest
And for the appalling repercussions for Adrian Schoolcraft:
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/nypd-tapes-4-the-whistleblower-adrian-schoolcraft-6429143
If this is what they do to their own........
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/nypd-tapes-4-the-whistleblower-adrian-schoolcraft-6429143
If this is what they do to their own........
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mattiasNYC
Guest
More on tape....:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ordered-secret-recording-stop-and-frisk-young-blacks-males-article-1.1295665
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ordered-secret-recording-stop-and-frisk-young-blacks-males-article-1.1295665
Lies, damn lies, and statistics... (Mark Twain).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/wp/2015/12/26/2015/12/26/a-year-of-reckoning-police-fatally-shoot-nearly-1000/
https://mic.com/articles/96452/one-troubling-statistic-shows-just-how-racist-america-s-police-brutality-problem-is#.EOjGTBhk6
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/09/04/the-real-story-of-race-and-police-killings/?_r=0
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/police-kill-more-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/
The data was not rigorously collected for years, and only recently has the availability of smart phone videos of outlier events raised a media fire storm from isolated events. I doubt many people feel compelled to post videos of the millions of positive or uneventful interactions. Different people spin the same data different ways (thus my Mark Twain quote).
When I was a kid I got stopped pretty frequently by the police (hot rod kid with a loud car). I never disrespected the police (to their face). I still don't today. If a black person is stopped they typically believe it's because of race (because they are told that by irresponsible people). For whatever reason they were stopped, how they treat the police will affect how the police treat them.
We are not on a good path. Media and our political leadership need to stop stirring the pot for ratings and votes.
JR
[edit] looks like congress is going on recess without passing a new round of gun control legislation.. I doubt this will go away in the heat of campaign politics. [/edit]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/wp/2015/12/26/2015/12/26/a-year-of-reckoning-police-fatally-shoot-nearly-1000/
https://mic.com/articles/96452/one-troubling-statistic-shows-just-how-racist-america-s-police-brutality-problem-is#.EOjGTBhk6
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/09/04/the-real-story-of-race-and-police-killings/?_r=0
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/police-kill-more-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/
The data was not rigorously collected for years, and only recently has the availability of smart phone videos of outlier events raised a media fire storm from isolated events. I doubt many people feel compelled to post videos of the millions of positive or uneventful interactions. Different people spin the same data different ways (thus my Mark Twain quote).
When I was a kid I got stopped pretty frequently by the police (hot rod kid with a loud car). I never disrespected the police (to their face). I still don't today. If a black person is stopped they typically believe it's because of race (because they are told that by irresponsible people). For whatever reason they were stopped, how they treat the police will affect how the police treat them.
We are not on a good path. Media and our political leadership need to stop stirring the pot for ratings and votes.
JR
[edit] looks like congress is going on recess without passing a new round of gun control legislation.. I doubt this will go away in the heat of campaign politics. [/edit]
micaddict
Well-known member
Typical.
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mattiasNYC
Guest
JohnRoberts said:
You've stopped listening. You're part of the problem now John.
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mattiasNYC
Guest
Here's a recording from an actual stop:
https://www.thenation.com/article/stopped-and-frisked-being-fking-mutt-video/
https://www.thenation.com/article/stopped-and-frisked-being-fking-mutt-video/
Only if I am the one who is wrong. 8)mattiasNYC said:
Perhaps I've stopped listening/arguing with you (life is short). We've been around these same arguments before. I don't expect to change your opinions, why do you think you can change mine?
We've had many discussions about stop and frisk... should they monitor old grand mothers? Maybe we need powerful metal detectors (fluoroscopes?) for the sidewalks (like in science fiction movies), but then the bad guys would start 3D printing plastic guns.
I recall back in the day, bad actors could make "zip guns" from things as simple as car antennas ( a .22 cal bullet could fit inside some antenna tubes down at the fat bottom end).
I will not repeat myself too much but getting guns off the streets saves black lives disproportionately over white lives (sorry about the stereotype). NYC was pretty much under control and improving before DeBlasio "fixed" it.
Chicago is a more visible example of out of control neighborhoods challenged by gang violence, while at least they are trying new stuff in Chicago (increased police presence) there. NYC seems headed back to where they were several administrations ago.
JR
PS: Another thing I notice, some people are much more visually oriented and influenced by watching video presentations, or listening to opinion leaders lecture. For me that is like having a tooth pulled. I ignore most links and videos unless given compelling reasons to watch (by the poster in his own words). I do not doubt that there are cases of bad police behavior, likewise I do not believe it is common or typical behavior of all police today. I have already said I believe media is hyping the bad news about police and ignoring the good news.
[edit-] for some good news the Dallas police chief David Brown has been inundated with applicants after publicly stating that he was hiring, and people could come and help the police do a better job. I sure hope this becomes a new trend nationwide with civic minded people stepping up to become part of the solution. Instead of the counter-productive us vs them screed. [/edit]
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mattiasNYC
Guest
Did you read ANY of the links I provided?
I tried a couple but life is short... ( my comments about stop and frisk was in response to one of your links, but I am not going back to find it).mattiasNYC said:
WHAT DO YOU THINK...... other than that I am part of the problem?
JR
PS: Trying to make other people on the WWW do what you want them to do is a waste of your time, and irritates them (true).
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mattiasNYC
Guest
JohnRoberts said:
What I think is that there is absolutely nothing that will make people like you, who have already made up your mind change.
- Victims of police abuse testify
- Incidents are now on camera
- Commanders were recorded telling police officers in precincts to discriminate
- Over 50% of summonses in NYC thrown out by the courts.....
None of that matters to you. There is NO evidence it seems that will make you think that it's likely a city-wide problem. Not even commanders saying it while being recorded. No, all this is just is a bunch of mad black people not having a proper perspective and a handful of rotten apples (cops).
So from where I'm standing this will continue, because right-wingers will ignore even police commanders telling cops to discriminate, and then forget about it, and then continue to vote for "hard-line" politicians that will "clean up" areas, and the cycle continues.... And then they're somewhat surprised or disappointed that black people are upset that they don't have the same rights.
And about the attitude towards police when stopped: When that kid was shot to death at the playground while holding a fake gun... when the black guy was killed at Walmart, having dropped a fake Walmart bb-gun - that was in an open-carry state! What were their attitudes towards police that changed the outcome? Of course you'll say those were exceptions, just like the last guy's recorded encounter I just posted, and a bunch of others. They all conform nicely to exactly what the commanders tell the police to do. The "white privilege" that black people talk about is for example being able to walk openly with a gun in an open-carry state without being shot dead within 2-5 seconds with no chance of surrender because the cops have made up their mind that they're dealing with a criminal. This is what black people in this country experience. Heck, for a part of NY's population being able to walk or stand on a sidewalk or on one's own property's stoop without being harassed and likely thrown in jail is essentially a white privilege. Quite frankly the only shocking thing about the recent killing of cops was that it was by a lunatic and only now. I would have expected way more people doing it years ago.
So all of this will continue until people like you understand that there's something rotten going on and you decide to stop it.
Or perhaps black people will force a change.
JohnRoberts said:
Yeah, we're only talking about racism involving one of the civilized west's most trigger happy and civilian-killing police force and possible institutionalized racism, so of course asking people if they read something relevant about it is probably asking too much.....
bruno2000
Well-known member
mattiasNYC said:
Switches fail more often than resistors. Do you check the resistors as often as you do the switches?
Best,
Bruno2000
Actually switches are always getting their "buttons pushed" which wears them out.. but I think I get your point.bruno2000 said:
Rational though and logic should not be ignored in this discussion, avoid the emotional hot buttons..
JR
Only marginally concerned, since I'm in a country where arms circulation is somewhat controlled, but going back to the original subject.
How many lives have been saved by law-abiding gun-bearing citizens?
OTOH we just had proof last night that terrorists do not need guns...
How many lives have been saved by law-abiding gun-bearing citizens?
OTOH we just had proof last night that terrorists do not need guns...
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mattiasNYC
Guest
JohnRoberts said:
Yes, let's keep things glib and simplistic, shall we.....
Meanwhile, in the real world:
"The New York Civil Liberties Union found that police got 397 guns during 191,851 stops last year. That means cops found firearms on people in just 0.2% of the stops."
but
"at the peak of the NYPD stops — there was a record 685,724 in 2011 — cops seized 819 guns. That’s a gun recovered in just 0.1% of the stops, the NYCLU found. "
That addresses the glib remark about DeBlasio and lowering the amount of stops performed by police. In other words, just like summonses are thrown out over 50% of the time more stops isn't necessarily better. In fact the statistics show the opposite.
But we don't care about statistics do we? And we don't care about police commanders telling officers to discriminate based on race, do we?
You reap what you sow people.
I have seen anecdotal reports of lives saved (and some over-reach by armed private citizens). These rarely get wide coverage in the media since it goes against the grain of their preferred story line. Also preventing a multiple killing would require reporting about a hypothetical event that did not happen, that is easier to just ignore.abbey road d enfer said:
On a related theme, I saw an article today about US shopping mall operators increasing visibility of armed guards in response to customers wanting to "see" more security. Of course we have a much safer environment than the EU.
It is still early to discuss this intelligently, but I've seen early reports that the truck attacker was armed with a gun (?) too. I suspect France has fairly strict gun laws (no 2nd amendment in France), so laws mainly disarm law abiding citizens, not bad actors.
Yes, it is the nature of terrorism to adapt. As the west hardens soft targets, terror looks for new ways to kill in spectacular ways. Another aspect of terrorism is to appeal to disturbed individuals, looking for some outlet for their anger.
My condolences to the French (again, not a good year). We will never be free of angry individuals, but we can quiet one of the evil voices in their head egging them on, by stabilizing the middle east.. This is not easy but I remain optimistic about progress in Iraq (again). Still several open sores in the region that need our focused effort.
JR
PS: A positive spin on this is we are witnessing the death throes of ISIS as they ramp up global violence to distract the world from their losses on the ground at home (Iraq-Syria). I am not ready to declare victory any time soon, but we need to keep up the pressure on them despite any near term increase in terrorist attacks..
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mattiasNYC
Guest
bruno2000 said:
If I understand you correctly your assertion is that blacks commit more crime and therefore it's fine for police to discriminate based on race.
That assumes that you ignored every other point the article made, including the points that police weren't stopping blacks because they suspected criminal activity, or because they wanted to prevent it, but simply for other reasons. It also includes you ignoring police downgrading actual crimes which in turn means they on purpose served those neighborhoods far worse than other neighborhoods.
But all of this is ok because "blacks are criminals" more often than whites. Did I get that right or?
As long as none of you repeat the stupid "Land of the free" argument and stand up and clearly say that discrimination based on race is ok with you and that some races should have less civil liberties because they're more likely to be criminals then I'm fine with that. Just don't be coy about it and simultaneously pretend that America treats people equally.
