Head Baskets make a difference in sound?

[rock soderstrom]

It can't be for no reason that Neumann hasn't made a 'lollipop' head mic for many, many decades.

Probably for the same reason why Neumann have not built a tube U47 for decades. If Neumann were to build me one, or even a Lollipop, I would not refuse.

From a technical point of view, the U67/87 style headbasket is probably superior to the two old variations. On the other hand, you can also produce first-class music with the second best solutions, can't you?

I have heard and used both (lollipop and U47) in real life. Good enough for me... On the other side I totally understand the Neumann designers. It's a technology company, they don't want to mess around with their old stuff forever. I can well remember when I and a few (also young) colleagues suggested to the Neumänner in the early nineties that they should revive the old U47. The answer was: "What's next, the Hitler bottles?"

The main problem with lolipops is their housing works as an obstacle for the sound in the 90 degree area where the off axis still has a lot of sensitivity. To my knowledge, the only microphone free of this deficiency is our own Samar TF10, where the housing is not around the capsule, but is a part of the capsule itself, so the off axis (which in my opinion the most important part of the sonics and phase integrity) is not affected in any way. Also, the screen mesh is very open and is pretty close to the diaphragm, so all the reflections moved to very high frequencies, which are out of the bandwidth.

Thanks for insight. Beautiful mic, I like the full metal look.

 

[Migs 31]

Do you have an example of a well-designed loolipop headbasket?

The Josephson e22s

And although not technically a Lollipop (more a cone'ish) : Neumann KM 86
Apparently the KM84 and KM86 have the same capsule design, but I remember doing tests with an acoustic guitar, both mics Cardioid (of course) and to me the 86 sounded more "true"& natural.

"the Neumänner in the early nineties that they should revive the old U47. The answer was: "What's next, the Hitler bottles?" Ha!!! Typical thinking of: "we know better what engineers and musicians want, we know better what is good for you,shut up now!""Your President knows better"
The extra money they would have made and also crushed the competition, Peluso et all.

PS: well the Adolflasche seemed quite good (CMV3?). I saw an original one in Munich a few years ago, I couldn't try it connected. It was like a relic... but it looked well built. Again a Lollipop kind of design.
M

 

[kingkorg]

Technically, most of the mics have the "issue" of 90° angle of incidence Marik mentions as most have some kind of headbasket support there. If we are being anal about it... As i mentioned in the original reply the thickness matters, distance and it's mass.

 

[Migs 31]

Unless you come up with a capsule that doesn't need shielding.

Im still baffled by this, Kingkorg!
Pure genius-Mad genius should I add.

Only thing that comes close, are these babes below! I would like to try & imitate/replicate them one day...
M

 

[kingkorg]

Im still baffled by this, Kingkorg!
Pure genius-Mad genius should I add.

Only thing that comes close, are these babes below! I would like to try & imitate/replicate them one day...
M

Yeah, such headbaskets for available cheap SDCs would be gold!

 

[rock soderstrom]

Neumann KM 86
Apparently the KM84 and KM86 have the same capsule design, but I remember doing tests with an acoustic guitar, both mics Cardioid (of course) and to me the 86 sounded more "true"& natural.

Yeah, that is nice one (Stabhandgranate;-). There was another similar design on the other side of the wall. The Gefell PM750.

"the Neumänner in the early nineties that they should revive the old U47. The answer was: "What's next, the Hitler bottles?" Ha!!! Typical thinking of: "we know better what engineers and musicians want, we know better what is good for you,shut up now!""Your President knows better"
The extra money they would have made and also crushed the competition, Peluso et all.

In hindsight erverybody is a prophet, but at that time it was very noticeable how the expectations of the market and the brand's own perspective differed. People wanted the old stuff, the vintage hype wave was really picking up speed but the manufacturer wanted to overcome its own legacy. The Neumänner wanted to realise modern things like DDD production with an inbuild AD converter in the microphone. Transformers were considered as old-fashioned and obsolete. The name TLM (transformerless microphone) was a statement for that. However, the market saw this differently.

 

[rock soderstrom]

Yeah, such headbaskets for available cheap SDCs would be gold!

+1

Only thing that comes close, are these babes below! I would like to try & imitate/replicate them one day...

They look good. I am looking for good designs like that...at some point I would like to build a Neumann bottle style mic, because then you could also use slightly larger tubes like the EF37a or similar.

 

[Migs 31]

Yeah, such headbaskets for available cheap SDCs would be gold!

Well..... let’s do it!
Any of you has decent 3D printing with metal filament skills? I done a start.
We can have that made in the East.
Cheap!
M

 

[MicMan]

The answer everyone hates - it depends.

You have extremes like Soyuz, BM3000, or M-audio Sputnik. But in general, well designed lollipop with thin frame should be pretty transparent.

M-Audio Sputnik - my all-time favourite Large Diaphragm Condenser! It has not only superb bass, but some special spice in the high mids ..mind you; I use it / them only in cardioid or fig-8 patterns and not in omni, so I don't know about omni. Almost the only mic I've ever found which, specified as "20 Hz – 20 kHz frequency response, ± 1 dB" is actually AS SENSITIVE AT 20Hz as it is at 100Hz. I find that most other "20 Hz – 20 kHz frequency response" claims or specs are misleading fantasy.

 

[telewulf]

I hope I do not bother you with my own findings, bit as for the old Lollipop-M7s that went on top of the CMV 3 as well es the CMV 563:
May I present a Photo that I took, when re-installing the renewed capsules into my Lollipops



The basket consists of three layers of mesh. The outer and inner ones are quite coarse, the middle one is much finer. Together they make for a VERY dense and VERY solid basket. Around the capsules you can see about the finest mesh made of copper, that I have ever seen.

I think the greatest advantage of a Lollipop-like basket is that there is no reflective surface directly underneath the capsule, as in allmost every other large-capsule mic.

May I also share another one of my experiences:
After having used the usual nylon-stocking-like Pop killers, I tried filter pads that had been made for use in kitchen fume extraction hoods. It worked really really well but because it was too flabby, I sandwiched it between two layers of wide spaced brass mesh, the distance between the wires was about 5 mm.

Of course I then wanted to find out, if the foam did anything to the frequency response and the result was: No, the foam didn´t do any harm, but the mesh did!
And this was in very good accordance with my physics lessons from 30 years ago: If you put any regularly spaced grid in the way of any kind of wave (electromagnetic as well as sound pressure), what you get is diffractions - nothing you can do against it. Of course the effect will only be noticeable if the grid is in about the same range as the wavelength.
In my case, the coarse mesh gave me + 0,5 dB at 2 & 4 & 8 & 16 kHz, and - 0,5 dB at 3 & 6 & 12 kHz.
Although I would concider that to be inaudible, I immedialty scrapped the mesh ...
My lesson learned was: Take the finest mesh you can and by that push up the bumps and dips as far as you can.
Another very promissing solution should be to use some irregular structure.

best wishes from Bremen,
telewulf

 

[MicMaven]

Hmmm ....all this talk about DIY round head baskets gives me ideas ... can you say "back-to-back tea strainer?" The flat ones are pop filters. I think these have at least SOME possibilities.
James

 

[MidnightArrakis]

How does a lollipop headbasket affect the sound?

[How does a lollipop headbasket affect the sound?] -- Sweet!!!.....with just a touch of "stickiness"!!!

/

 

[micolas]

Hmmm ....all this talk about DIY round head baskets gives me ideas ... can you say "back-to-back tea strainer?" The flat ones are pop filters. I think these have at least SOME possibilities.
James

MicMaven,
I too have been thinking about tea strainers or other liquids for a while now. In the 80s I built electret microphones in the armaments factory where I was an engineer. We had high precision machines and highly qualified workers. I took the capsules from Unitra, Philips, Blaupunkt, Sharp, Sanyo etc, radio cassette players.
After '90, the industry in my country was intentionally bankrupted, now I'm looking for tea strainers and recovering components from old electronic devices.

 

[MicMaven]

After having used the usual nylon-stocking-like Pop killers, I tried filter pads that had been made for use in kitchen fume extraction hoods. It worked really really well but because it was too flabby, ...

Clever idea. I have experimented with sheets of coarse, randomly woven carbon pre-filter air cleaner material. I buy large sheets and cut them to fit my HEPA air cleaners, and occasionally to fit a cheap plastic microphone pop filter frame. They filter large dust particles, yet allow sufficient air to flow through the HEPA filter stage and also circulate the air throughout the room. They sound (to my ears) acoustically transparent. They are stiff enough to hold their shape, yet thin enough to slide inside a plastic pop filter frame. I add them to $10 on pop filters sold on eBay. (An added advantage is they purportedly freshen the air and remove odors . . .)

Mr. @telewulf - perhaps this material would work for your application, protecting the mic element, while obviating the wire mesh you have used to maintain their shape. Shall I mail you a sample?


Sidebar Comment -- While add-on pop filters are wildly popular among the YouTube podcast crowd - I use them only on talent with poor microphone technique who are not amenable to suggestion or direction. You professionals know the type! Moreover, I cringe when I see YouTube product reviewers (so called "influencers") blowing and puffing directly into a large condenser capsule at super close range to judge how it "handles plosives and sibilance." Sheesh - a really dumb idea and artificial test as nobody in his right mind would ever use any microphone in that way. Instead, I advocate sensible microphone technique that pre-empts and eliminates the need for prophalactic pop filters. Besides, they obscrure and conceal my beautiful microphones.

Of course, this is just MY take ... James

 

[k brown]

How about the notion that perhaps the biggest advantage to a lollipop head for SDC cards is not so much the basket itself, but that the rear of the capsule is now 'seeing' a much less diffractive/obstructive environment than the cone or dome in a conventional 'pencil' mic?

 

[kingkorg]

How about the notion that perhaps the biggest advantage to a lollipop head for SDC cards is not so much the basket itself, but that the rear of the capsule is now 'seeing' a much less diffractive/obstructive environment than the cone or dome in a conventional 'pencil' mic?

Unless what's behind the capsule has been taken into account and is part of the equation. But i agree, many don't take this into account.

KM184 which doesn't get much praise, has insanely well rejection from the back. From -17 to -20db evenly throughout the range, even at 8K. This is because the well designed chamber behind, and the fact there is body behind it. Put that capsule in side adress arrangement, you loose much of the rejection.

 

[kingkorg]

Apples and oranges, but compare that to u87 which has tragic rear rejection compared to KM series. Tiny bit above -5db at 8K. And imagine using it in some crazy scenario on a tom with cymbals behind it, and boosting that 8k for some tom snap. Most side adress mics would, and do fall apart. Not all of course.

 

[k brown]

Isn't most of that due to the difference between dual-diaphragm to produce cardioid on LDCs vs phase-cancellation used on SDCs?

 

[kingkorg]

Isn't most of that due to the difference between dual-diaphragm to produce cardioid on LDCs vs phase-cancellation used on SDCs?

I see what you get at, yes there are some differences due to that, but large object (sdc's body) behind capsule blocks a lot of sound "brute force" mode. The catch is to design the cavity behind not to affect performance negatively.

KSM104/105 capsules have also great design where you can put whatever you like behind them or use them as side adress without much detriment.

One side adress LDC that does rejection from the back exquisitely is KSM32. Doesn't get the praise it deserves, and i keep forgetting to mention it even though i use it all the time.

 

[telewulf]

Sorry for clogging up the discussion with air extractor foam, but nevertheless ...

... @MicMaven: Thanks for the great inspiration! Next time I go to the DIY-market, I´ll try that foam. Definitly better than my ugly solution.