Hell exists

[Script]

[...] I simply cannot offer an answer other than, I am totally happy with my choice [...]

Jesus is really not my cup of tea, nor is any other religion. I simply have no relation to any of them (third generation without religion), nor any background in it (apart from book knowledge). There are a total of four religions in my greater, extended family; however, I belong in the 'belief in oblivion' fraction, if to any at all. Anyway, all I try to do is to figuratively keep 'oblivion' (pun(s) intended) out of my life

Forget the above. What i want to say is this:

I'm sincerely happy for you! Make the most for yourself out of your experience and choice. But also promise yourself to always stay open and critical at the same time (including yourself, which is most difficult and many tend to forget to easily). Keep listening without intent (even when it seems silent around you). And promise yourself to lead the best of a life, enjoying it to the fullest without fear.

(This is the most spiritual I can get -- forgive me )

 

[desol]

Indeed. I've been critical for too long...

 

[Script]

Indeed. I've been critical for too long...

I didn't mean open to and critical of your faith.

I meant open to and critical of what you 'think', 'see', 'feel', 'hear' and 'read' etc.  As soon as we stop that, we come to a grinding hold as human beings, making us living dead (=hell)

 

[desol]

I didn't mean open to and critical of your faith.

I meant open to and critical of what you 'think', 'see', 'feel', 'hear' and 'read' etc.  As soon as we stop that, we come to a grinding hold as human beings, making us living dead (=hell)

I assumed it exactly as you described, only in my case it's more intense, having to do with 'the strict critical process'/scientific objectivity. ie: questioning everything with scientific brutality. This has been my prime motivator for a very long time. One of the precepts to my belief in God, is the belief that it may never be proven with certainty or that man's denial will simply never admit it...unless of course you're Einstein or Michio Kaku.

 

[Script]

I see... Not sure what you mean by scientific 'brutality' though. The scientific method is not brutal as such. I guess what you mean is 'fundamental doubt' and maybe a feeling of 'insecurity' or (existential?) 'ungroundedness'? But these are sentiments -- which indeed can make life hard and, in the worst case, even unworth living.

The sciences, including the so-called soft sciences or humanities, are based on hypotheses that 'work' in that they follow 'rules', are 'measurable' and 'repeatable', and purely 'practical' in orientation. It's a continuous effort at explaining the (physical) world around us. But science, by definition, has nothing to do with faith and vice versa.

As for the Bible, there are almost 2,000 years of (metaphysical) interpretation coming with it. It's highly interesting. This process of interpreting the Word is called Hermeneutics -- with some interpretations dangerously close to heresy (most mystics fall into this category). But they are all attempts at 'explaining' the Word. Some explanations made it into new editions or 'translations' of the Bible.

The most radical questioning of the Word (even of God) can be found in the Jewish faith. Imagine a religion that, to some degree, allows you to discuss and argue with God -- quite fascinating an idea.

Does this all matter to one's individual faith? I think not, because the Bible, I believe, was never meant to be taken literally in the first place -- and God, if existing, might object vehemently to taking it literally too, I tend to believe. The Word(s) point(s) to something metaphysical and that, as such, is hard, if not impossible, to put into words. The Bible is full of metaphorical, no actually allegorical language and images (from Latin: imago) -- and hence there is hermeneutics.

Anyway, in turn, some claim that the sciences, if applied correctly to rule, are also research into God, or Logos.

 

[bluebird]

Yesterday this just popped up on my NPR podcast. Its a show on modern  psychology I follow called "Hidden Brain". This episode happen to be on religion and how it came to be as humans had to survive in larger groups. We are wired to live in communities of 150 or less. After that, knowing your neighbor and their intent gets difficult. Something big had to be invented to make sure there was a reason to trust people you don't know. Larger populations seemed to need more of a punitive or wrathful God to keep people in line.

This story lays out culture and religion in a Darwinian sense. Religion helping larger populations survive, therefor propagating the Religion. It is actually supportive of faith and religion in many ways.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/16/628792048/creating-god

 

[desol]

I see... Not sure what you mean by scientific 'brutality' though. The scientific method is not brutal as such. I guess what you mean is 'fundamental doubt' and maybe a feeling of 'insecurity' or (existential?) 'ungroundedness'? But these are sentiments -- which indeed can make life hard and, in the worst case, even unworth living.

The sciences, including the so-called soft sciences or humanities, are based on hypotheses that 'work' in that they follow 'rules', are 'measurable' and 'repeatable', and purely 'practical' in orientation. It's a continuous effort at explaining the (physical) world around us. But science, by definition, has nothing to do with faith and vice versa.

As for the Bible, there are almost 2,000 years of (metaphysical) interpretation coming with it. It's highly interesting. This process of interpreting the Word is called Hermeneutics -- with some interpretations dangerously close to heresy (most mystics fall into this category). But they are all attempts at 'explaining' the Word. Some explanations made it into new editions or 'translations' of the Bible.

The most radical questioning of the Word (even of God) can be found in the Jewish faith. Imagine a religion that, to some degree, allows you to discuss and argue with God -- quite fascinating an idea.

Does this all matter to one's individual faith? I think not, because the Bible, I believe, was never meant to be taken literally in the first place -- and God, if existing, might object vehemently to taking it literally too, I tend to believe. The Word(s) point(s) to something metaphysical and that, as such, is hard, if not impossible, to put into words. The Bible is full of metaphorical, no actually allegorical language and images (from Latin: imago) -- and hence there is hermeneutics.

Anyway, in turn, some claim that the sciences, if applied correctly to rule, are also research into God, or Logos.

By brutality, I mean strict adherence to established methods of proving what is and what isn't. I would not and still do not believe anything offered to me subjectively, totally. Faith, as some of the greatest minds have shown, is forced onto an entirely subjective level and as such cannot be subjected to these methods; it always ends up entirely personal.

I agree with your post as most of it is reasonable to assume. I've also assumed as such throughout my own personal searching.  What it does leave me with, is the impression that you haven't found your answer.

 

[Script]

Faith, as some of the greatest minds have shown, is forced onto an entirely subjective level and as such cannot be subjected to these methods; it always ends up entirely personal.

Dito.

[...] the impression that you haven't found your answer.

To what question?

 

[desol]

Dito.To what question?

Whether God exists or not...and as such, I don't need to know...because it's personal.

 

[Script]

This story lays out culture and religion in a Darwinian sense. Religion helping larger populations survive, therefor propagating the Religion. It is actually supportive of faith and religion in many ways.

Little surprising, as all larger groups of people need some sort of civil code (or rules) in order to live together in peace. 'Hell' I guess it would be if anybody just did what they liked all of the time. Thanks for the link

 

[desol]

Jesus is really not my cup of tea, nor is any other religion. I simply have no relation to any of them (third generation without religion), nor any background in it (apart from book knowledge). There are a total of four religions in my greater, extended family; however, I belong in the 'belief in oblivion' fraction, if to any at all. Anyway, all I try to do is to figuratively keep 'oblivion' (pun(s) intended) out of my life

Forget the above. What i want to say is this:

I'm sincerely happy for you! Make the most for yourself out of your experience and choice. But also promise yourself to always stay open and critical at the same time (including yourself, which is most difficult and many tend to forget to easily). Keep listening without intent (even when it seems silent around you). And promise yourself to lead the best of a life, enjoying it to the fullest without fear.

(This is the most spiritual I can get -- forgive me )

Promise me Script, that in your last days, you think very carefully about the amount of knowledge and power that you feel you possess, in relation to an 'intelligence' that could have created something as large and ordered as the Universe.

Very, carefully...as from what I understand, it's fairly strict and placing yourself above it, isn't a great idea. (wink wink)

 

[Script]

Whether God exists or not...and as such, I don't need to know...because it's personal.

I kind of like that reply,

It tells me that you start to get what I'm driving at. The world can be a very cruel place. As of late, there seem to be many people who rejoice in attacking others and as many who feel offended by often minute things -- almost as if waiting and wanting to be on the defence constantly. Religion is a topic particularly vulnerable to such attacks. So DaveP is absolutely right in calling it brave.

On a spectrum of extremes, the exact opposite of constantly defending one's faith would be the missionary drive. People tend to get upset about that and I think they are right. And you are right. The question of faith or no-faith is and should stay personal.

Anyway, you could take almost any of the arguments posted above and easily use them for yourself. Even bluebird, whether intended or not, has started to feed you in his last post, I like that

 

[desol]

I kind of like that reply,

It tells me that you start to get what I'm driving at. The world can be a very cruel place. As of late, there seem to be many people who rejoice in attacking others and as many who feel offended by often minute things -- almost as if waiting and wanting to be on the defence constantly. Religion is a topic particularly vulnerable to such attacks. So DaveP is absolutely right in calling it brave.

On a spectrum of extremes, the exact opposite of constantly defending one's faith would be the missionary drive. People tend to get upset about that and I think they are right. And you are right. The question of faith or no-faith is and should stay personal.

Anyway, you could take almost any of the arguments posted above and easily use them for yourself. Even bluebird, whether intended or not, has started to feed you in his last post, I like that

Well, I believe in Christ, so while I don't believe in pushing anything on anyone, He does say not to stay silent. My meaning was that your decision is personal. I'm not sure what you mean by feed me, as I didn't come here to eat. Just to tell my own story of the Truth that found in some of these NDE experiences.

 

[Script]

Yes, and should you ever come across anyone who really wanted to attack you and your faith, please promise me to remember this thread and foresee the arguments they might present. Use them for yourself if needed.

You came here to present your TRUTH, but also wanted to hear what people think about it and have to say. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted in the first place.

As for the promise you have asked me, I cannot possibly promise that because knowing myself and the experiences I had, I'm not sure I could't keep it. But I might think of you instead, who knows

----
Stepped out of a plane a few hours ago -- jetlagged. Sorry but have to hit the sack now.

 

[desol]

Yes, and should you ever come across anyone who really wanted to attack you and your faith, please promise me to remember this thread and foresee the arguments they might present.

You came here to present your TRUTH, but also wanted to hear what people think about it and have to say. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted in the first place.

I completely understand 'their' view already, because that used to be me...and surely you cannot force anyone to believe any faith as that simply goes against the definition itself. Attacking someone's faith is an oxymoron, isn't it? I'm glad to explain the reasons why I believe; because I believe what others have said they experienced. I found Truth in their disfigurement and their tears.

Actually, I didn't really care about what others had to say...it was purely in regards to the message, that it's not good to stay silent about what you've discovered. It was out of fear(and obedience). That doesn't mean arguing or trying to disprove others beliefs.

 

[desol]

Christ taught communal, socialist sharing and ownership; 'love and equality' for humanity. Not chasing money and staying rich(while people starve to death) and placing your wants above His. Satan waits on a pile of Gold.

0:00-16:21.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-6UViZAMSA

 

[living sounds]

This just in:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45181770

 

[Script]

The authors [...] advise against self-medication.

Like that.

Doing whatever in excess -- be it taking 'drugs', reading books, developing religious fervor,  physical over-excercising, soldering without precautions -- it can all too easily lead to (unexpected) problems on some other end...

 

[desol]

https://10lovecommandments.com/

Her video is a good one.

 

[boji]

This story lays out culture and religion in a Darwinian sense. Religion helping larger populations survive, therefor propagating the Religion. It is actually supportive of faith and religion in many ways.

The evolutionary case for religion has reconciled much of what I have found lacking in a strict empercistic, atheistic worldview.
Further, evolutionary psychology and modern mapping of the brain have shown us the importance of the right hemisphere in matters of exploration, threat detection and the need for a hierarchy of values that, taken to its end, must refer to a metaphysical worldview in order to remain cohesive, since this hemisphere tends to interpret reality through feelings and intuition, not language and stepwise information processing. 
To dispense with spiritual practice and the idea of laws passed down by an 'abstract and beyond-corruptible agency' is to ignore half of the way our brain has evolved to deal with a chaotic and dangerous world since our species split off from chimps.
Nowadays, when I hear a person get annoyed by religious talk or voices a complete dismissal of archetypal and spiritual methods of interpretation of the world, I see a high functioning autistic that is in complete denial of half his neuronal physiology.

Edit: Add to this ongoing research that shows environment and genes play a important part in the development of which areas of the brain contribute to what behavior, and it is not the case that all hemispheric functions are geographically pre-determined. But one thing is certain: if you can find examples of spiritual behavior in humans, then the areas of the brain that contribute to feelings of spirituality are at the least a useful adaptation for our survival.