Hell exists

[bluebird]

I got it, I knew I could figure out a compromise for this.

I heard a story on the radio about a patient who's psychiatrist would see him frozen in a pose for hours. Like with his hand held up close to his face. When confronted with this the patient told the doctor he was nuts, and just simply picking his nose. SO the doctor took pictures of the patient when he was frozen every 10 minutes or so. After flipping through the pictures the patient was indeed picking his nose, just REALLY slowly. Like a 4 hour movement, totally smooth.
The doctor showed the patient the pictures and it blew his mind. He wasn't experiencing time in the same way everyone else was. It was a "glitch" in the workings of his brain. Weird right? true story....

SO, if there is a hell, it could be that the second before you die...stay with me here...the second before you die, before your neurons die,  you perceive some type of hell for an eternity. An eternity in that one second before it goes black.

If this patient could perceive 4 hours to be a couple seconds, why couldn't he experience an even longer time.

But this "experience" could be heaven too, and it could depend on how you lived your life.

Well now I'm a little scared... Someone tell me this couldn't be

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

That's really all.  Nothing more than thinking out loud sometimes.

That is fine with me.

He has dirty blonde hair.... but it was bright and I was in shock so , I could be mistaken..... just kidding....It was definitely dirty blonde...

Well, i talked about his apparence because the way he is depicted ( at least in what i've seen in Church or other representations here in France or in EU) is almost always the same way, white skin with long dark hair.

This is a political choice made during medieval iirc. This is probably far away from what he looked when he existed given the area where all the action took place. But it wasn't convenient for clergy.

Here again like with Jerome Bosch it made a picture in the subconscious of our culture and this pictures are strong in their meaning.

Well now I'm a little scared... Someone tell me this couldn't be

Sorry Bluebird, this could be even worst: let's say you thought about a giant sausage at that time, you could be locked for eternity with this image of a giant sausage looking at you... Terrifying!

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

I wonder if this is why Muslims banned all representation of god? Had some friends which could had answered to that but well, i won't ask for now they seems to be on a bad way (from my point of view).  ???

 

[gyraf]

Lol... I personally think we are alien babies, it seems to make the most sense. We must be in the adolescent phase of our species development.

Thanks.

This is one of the kindest views on humanity I've seen.

Jakob E.

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Scott,
I don t know if your last post is pointed at me but here is my take about it:

i will never laugh at anyone mystical experience.

Like Dave found Desol is brave to talk about his renewed faith i do feel the same about you sharing this kind of experience.

I ve already said that and i repeat i m respectful of other belief even if i don t share them.

Faith is a great and powerful motivation when used with a positive attitude.

It was the drive behind some of the most impressive artistical realisation everywhere in the world and this is the same for some research in science (science and religion are not nescesseraly opposed even if the way science is presented to us now tends to depict science as a new religion in some ways...).

Anyway, my own choice makes me to have a step back about all that and have some humour (maybe this is not fun at all, maybe it is lost in translation or a cultural issue, whatever...).

I repeat again all this is interesting to me  and i don t want to offend anyone in their belief but it has to be accepted from both side (believers, non believers) that we can be hurt by other point of view expressed without being driven by bad intentions.

Otherwise this will lead us to the situation we face in EU with Muslims extremists (which in my view are not believers but political activists trying to impose their view) killing people for some drawings or ideas.

Anyway if i offended you i m deeply sorry and apologize as it never was my intention.

 

[sahib]

I wonder if this is why Muslims banned all representation of god? Had some friends which could had answered to that but well, i won't ask for now they seems to be on a bad way (from my point of view).  ???

Muslims did not ban such representation, it is rather that Islam bans it. Simply, symbolism  within the context of worshipping is forbidden in Islam.  This of course has nothing to do with, say the destruction of Buddha statues in Afghanistan. As you stated in one of your later posts that was a statement of a particular group (of bandits) trying to exert their political view by cherry picking and using Islamic concepts out of their context.

Anyhow, seeing both sides of the discussion I would like to point out that belief and proof are exclusive. They both make sense within their own context. The problem with religions (in my experience  in Islam in particular) there is so much folkloric mumbo-jumbo pollutant that we can't see what's deep down below.

 

[DaveP]

I don t get you neither about Nde or out of body experience: what tells you both didn t happened to others (me) and that it didn t have the same impact in life than the one you or others believers experienced?

I was not directing my comments at anyone in particular, certainly not you.  I was addressing the posters who try to right off spiritual phenomena as just brain chemicals.

The reason the conversation is really about a spiritual afterlife is because Hell is only half of the equation, the other half is of course Heaven.  I'm sure that Desol would agree, even though he only came to believe because of the Hell testimonies.  The whole purpose of Christianity is to avoid separation from God (Hell)  All accounts of Heaven speak of being surrounded by love and peace.

Looks like the Hippies got that bit right

DaveP

 

[bluebird]

The whole purpose of Christianity is to avoid separation from God (Hell) 

Well no need to worry then, because ALL there is...is God... Separation is impossible. To be separate from ALL there is... is impossible.

Everyone is everything, and no one is going anywhere because there is nowhere ELSE to go.

Now back to my chicken stir fry. YUM!

 

[desol]

When I was into spinoza, animism and buddha...this was along the same lines that I assumed as well. However, with everything that I've come to learn lately, I've come to understand(through the help of others) that God created the Earth, He isn't the Earth. Within Christianity, worshiping the Earth is similar to idolatry. As it stands now, I fully believe that God exists only within the spirit of a Man and a Woman. God can depart from that spirit through 'dedicated and persistent' refusal(of Him in Jesus) at which point, forgiveness of sin is no longer possible. Not a situation one wants to be in, imo.

 

[bluebird]

Yes I know, I'm just riffing off of Dave's hippie thing. Just throwing out some more "what if's". Everyone seems to be on a mellow groove in this thread right now, which is nice ;D

There is an undeniable oneness in this universe though. Particle entanglement, matter only changing form but never being lost etc. Someone once explained life as only existing out of time. The mind can't really experience "life". It operates in the past and future only. A plant is "life". Expressing itself as it is, in the moment only. Being. Our bodies are life manifest in the moment, living. Cells being.
Our minds can't sit there. That's the problem with yogi's trying to force their minds into the moment. They are killing experience. Ignoring the whole purpose, which is to engage.

The mystery of conciseness. Something somewhere, at some point, popped out of the moment to observe what was happening.
Once an observer became, God could be observed... by himself.

 

[desol]

Yes I know, I'm just riffing off of Dave's hippie thing. Just throwing out some more "what if's". Everyone seems to be on a mellow groove in this thread right now, which is nice ;D

There is an undeniable oneness in this universe though. Particle entanglement, matter only changing form but never being lost etc. Someone once explained life as only existing out of time. The mind can't really experience "life". It operates in the past and future only. A plant is "life". Expressing itself as it is, in the moment only. Being. Our bodies are life manifest in the moment, living. Cells being.
Our minds can't sit there. That's the problem with yogi's trying to force their minds into the moment. They are killing experience. Ignoring the whole purpose, which is to engage.

The mystery of conciseness. Something somewhere, at some point, popped out of the moment to observe what was happening.
Once an observer became, God could be observed... by himself.

The universe is an elegant creation. The 'infinite variability' of it is evident on the Earth itself; we can all observe it, quite easily if you allow yourself to look(with your heart) and accept that there is something behind it...that could make something so beautiful, always changing and incomprehensible; an order in the chaos. In terms of your description(coupled with objectivity in physics) this type of mindset could be termed 'Zen Physics'...for lack of better words. Einstein could clearly observe it, but could still not comprehend it.

Life can be a beautiful experience...it's our choice and as such we can choose to destroy and refuse the 'rules', and live by greed, malice, division, murder, non-belief, etc. If you believe that there is something behind creation that is incomprehensible, would it not be feasible that it could manifest it's Word in a book? Would you not want to live by it's guidelines that allow for sharing with people, loving one another and respecting God, as He is clearly a boss and judge that is just and strict, as our judges seek to be? As manifested in our physical world, people are held accountable for their actions, which I've come to believe exists at the completion of life as well.

He must become more, I must become less.

 

[bluebird]

Scott! I tried to find that story about the dude experiencing time slower but to no avail. I heard it about a week ago in the car. I only listen to NPR so it must have been a story on NPR, BBC, Or on one of the local stations programs.
I'm not puling it out of my butt, I promise. It was super interesting.

Also 100% true: I had a TERRIBLE migraine this morning, and that was serious HELL for about 6 hours. I literally wanted to drill a hole in my head to let the CRUSHING pressure out...

Do you think I may have been being punished for questioning this thread on hell?

 

[hodad]

I haven't read through this whole, rather long thread (I'm not looking to convince or be convinced), but it'd be a shame if no one linked to this gem of a country song by the Louvin Brothers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czLceBSD7Cc

 

[bluebird]

That's awesome I like the picture of the devil on the cover. Its like a 4th grader made it out of construction paper...

Thanks Scott, migraines are pretty bad. I actually did for a moment think about the whole hell thing.

Point being when something that painful happens its hard not to try and attach some kind of meaning to it. They just come out of nowhere. BANG. For no good reason.

 

[Script]

Looks like the Hippies got that bit right

Well, some hippies may well have got that bit. Other hippies got into Aldous Huxley, Carlos Castaneda and Timothy Leary.

 

[Script]

As for 'afterlife', well, what sort? Cos there are many definitions in the various religions alone. I hate posting quotes, but here is one from wikipedia:

According to various ideas about the afterlife, the essential aspect of the individual that lives on after death may be some partial element, or the entire soul or spirit, of an individual, which carries with it and may confer personal identity or, on the contrary, may not, as in Indian nirvana. Belief in an afterlife, which may be naturalistic or supernatural, is in contrast to the belief in oblivion after death.

And yet others have as many children as possible to be remembered by as many as possible.

Personally, I am indifferent to 'afterlife'. But I recognise something positive in the 'idea'. However, more so for the mourners than the deceased. In Japanese Shinto, for example, the soul of a person continues to have some sort of influence (albeit waning) on people and the world for 49 years or so after death. This amounts to two and a maximum of three generations. Makes absolute sense to me, cos most people do not have active memories of their great grandparents.

 

[Script]

[...] try to right off spiritual phenomena as just brain chemicals.

We generally don't write off music as just air being moved by a coil and membrane.

I don't see spirituality and brain chemicals as mutually exclusive. Brain chemicals and electricity is pretty much what happens up there in the brain. Interestingly, studies in neurology have shown that brain activity during meditation and brain activity while free climbing is pretty much the same: Many and mainly alpha waves. Free climbing is not 'spiritual' as such, neither is artistic inspiration -- although the later can be.

No one can dispute anyone's experience. To me, however, the question is always what people make of their experiences. In Buddhist thought, for example, the brain is an 'organ' specialised in making sense continuously. It can make good sense, but mostly it makes bad sense -- leading to 'action'-ism, leading to accumulation of karma, leading to rebirth.

Anyway, I think many people have experiences to varying degrees (from mild to intense) that some would call spiritual (faith), others would call their sixth sense (intuition), for yet others it's the sudden occurrance of a melody or an entire novel plot (inspiration), yet others may have a profound experience that helps them break free off an old behaviour (psychological turning point). To me, there is not that much difference between them.

The question is: What do people make of these experiences? What is the idea of living? Continuously trying to develop one's knowledge, character, personality and try to be a better person? Maybe, and if so, there are many paths to achieve this and they all have their own distinctive idioms and metaphors.

 

[bluebird]

Nice post Script.

I don't see spirituality and brain chemicals as mutually exclusive.

I don't either, but when the brain dies, so does the spirituality. But then again, it lives on in all the other functioning brains still alive. Heaven and hell is a strong idea. In many, many peoples minds.  An idea that has become more than an idea. So powerful it manifests itself in reality.

there are many paths to achieve this and they all have their own distinctive idioms and metaphors.

So many, and so convincing when studied, I couldn't decide which path made more sense. Then the epiphany, NONE!

 

[Script]

Then the epiphany, NONE!

That sounds pretty Buddhist to me:
"Neither A nor B."

Change to:

"Neither A nor B
and (at the same time)
both A and B"

Then it'd be fully book-knowledge Buddhist

LIVE AND LET LIVE

 

[desol]

Maybe, and if so, there are many paths to achieve this and they all have their own distinctive idioms and metaphors.

I've taken a few days to think about this Script, and thank you for your post. It's a question that I had as well and it seems perfectly logical(I struggled with this very question for many years), however I simply cannot offer an answer other than, I am totally happy with my choice to believe in Jesus, and for the multitude of NDE experiences(both the positive and negative) that have helped me to decide.