Hell exists

[bluebird]

Really?

Lol, yes really. That's what I'm saying,  the only TRUE reality is the physical one.  Because that is the only 100% shared experience between all humans. And science seeks to write down the rules of the shared experiences agreed upon by all.  That's why I gave it all up. Spirituality, religion, metaphysics, astral travel... Its all fascinating but in the end it is simply entertainment. It is so subjective it can't be shared among all people. I just don't have time for it anymore. I quit playing music as well. I'm concentrating on making an income and raising kids now.  I grew out of it.

here is another good one from my seeking. A Course In Miracles. It is the truest and most modern teachings of Jesus Christ. (sorry I'll add, IN MY OPINION)

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Course_in_Miracles/Text

Jesus teaches the world is only perception. The Miracle is when you realize this fact and understand the only thing that can truly be changed, is your mind. There is no sin, just a mistake in thought. An error in perception.

So the paradox is: The physical world is the only provable real thing... but the interpretation of the physical  is completely up to the individual, and the interpretation is the only real thing to the individual.


Desol, see there are other ways to avoid hell. Master your mind and you will be free. Master your perception and there is no hell, no sin, only the physical world creating and destroying itself. We have the power to see the process in anyway we choose.

 

[desol]

Lol, yes really. That's what I'm saying,  the only TRUE reality is the physical one.  Because that is the only 100% shared experience between all humans. And science seeks to write down the rules of the shared experiences agreed upon by all.  That's why I gave it all up. Spirituality, religion, metaphysics, astral travel... Its all fascinating but in the end it is simply entertainment. It is so subjective it can't be shared among all people. I just don't have time for it anymore. I quit playing music as well. I'm concentrating on making an income and raising kids now.  I grew out of it.

here is another good one from my seeking. A Course In Miracles. It is the truest and most modern teachings of Jesus Christ. (sorry I'll add, IN MY OPINION)

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Course_in_Miracles/Text

Jesus teaches the world is only perception. The Miracle is when you realize this fact and understand the only thing that can truly be changed, is your mind. There is no sin, just a mistake in thought. An error in perception.

So the paradox is: The physical world is the only provable real thing... but the interpretation of the physical  is completely up to the individual, and the interpretation is the only real thing to the individual.


Desol, see there are other ways to avoid hell. Master your mind and you will be free. Master your perception and there is no hell, no sin, only the physical world creating and destroying itself. We have the power to see the process in anyway we choose.

Thank you Bluebird. I appreciate your concern and your humor. I'm fully aware of the scientific method, objectivity, critical thought...how the sciences operate and prove hypothesis through peer review, observation, etc. As far as the physical world is concerned, you cannot agree with anything other than that method, to 'prove' things that everyone, simply, cannot refute. I don't think you understand how much I agree with you, as I am highly objective and fully believe in the scientific method as a method for proving the sense from the nonsense.

"Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, they are frequently the same from one to another. The process of the scientific method involves making conjectures (hypotheses), deriving predictions from them as logical consequences, and then carrying out experiments or empirical observations based on those predictions.[5][6] A hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while seeking answers to the question. The hypothesis might be very specific, or it might be broad. Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting experiments or studies. A scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible outcome of an experiment or observation that conflicts with predictions deduced from the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully tested.[7]"

This is my mantra. I hold my friends, my family and people in general, in terms of opinion, in account of this method. I'm brutal with it. However, I still believe these people's experiences over this method.

 

[bluebird]

Oh I know your a science dude, your into electronics!

I'm trying to illustrate the many ways the non physical can be interpreted and felt to be real to an individual. You spent 6 months studying the NDE's and forming as scientific a hypothesis as bestyou could. You connected the dots. Hellish experiences---> Christianity as a cure.

I'm trying to illustrate how narrow an idea and connection that is. Go down the Astral Plane rabbit hole for 6 months and  I promise you will come back here swearing the different levels of the astral plane are true and real. There is testimonial upon testimonial of people who have traveled and seen all kinds of gods and devils, heavens and hells, and swear up and down that it is REAL. But it is always a personal experience.

It is all made up in the mind.
You choose this fantasy to be real, you searched for it and made it so. Search for an alternative and make it so. Then search again.

I only keep suggesting alternatives because I hate to see someone afraid he's going to hell when he dies. (or that all his buddies are going there!) That is so sad to me. Life has so many challenges as it is. Adding that weight cant be healthy.

I guess I'll leave it alone now. I've already blabbed more than you wanted to hear.

 

[desol]

Oh I know your a science dude, your into electronics!

I'm trying to illustrate the many ways the non physical can be interpreted and felt to be real to an individual. You spent 6 months studying the NDE's and forming as scientific a hypothesis as bestyou could. You connected the dots. Hellish experiences---> Christianity as a cure.

I'm trying to illustrate how narrow an idea and connection that is. Go down the Astral Plane rabbit hole for 6 months and  I promise you will come back here swearing the different levels of the astral plane are true and real. There is testimonial upon testimonial of people who have traveled and seen all kinds of gods and devils, heavens and hells, and swear up and down that it is REAL. But it is always a personal experience.

It is all made up in the mind.
You choose this fantasy to be real, you searched for it and made it so. Search for an alternative and make it so. Then search again.

I only keep suggesting alternatives because I hate to see someone afraid he's going to hell when he dies. (or that all his buddies are going there!) That is so sad to me. Life has so many challenges as it is. Adding that weight cant be healthy.

I guess I'll leave it alone now. I've already blabbed more than you wanted to hear.

No, I don't mind hearing another person's view, and I appreciate your advice. It's just that I now know, that I cannot pass the test on my terms.

 

[bluebird]

One last thing.
If there is a hell, it is firmly here in the physical world. There is tremendous human suffering. To really combat hell, devote yourself to fighting for justice in all dark corners of the world. Feed the hungry, be an activist. Devote your physical body to others. Stop the suffering wherever you can.  There is no need for a book or specific set of rules, it is pure in itself.
Take action. Do it for real.

 

[desol]

One last thing.
If there is a hell, it is firmly here in the physical world. There is tremendous human suffering. To really combat hell, devote yourself to fighting for justice in all dark corners of the world. Feed the hungry, be an activist. Devote your physical body to others. Stop the suffering wherever you can.  There is no need for a book or specific set of rules, it is pure in itself.
Take action. Do it for real.

Those are all part of the rules, and more.

 

[volker]

Thanks for the elaborate answer Scott. For me the only possible standpoint is this: as long as something hasn't been proven, I will assume its non-existence. Because the reverse conclusion would be, that anything exists that somebody can possibly imagine. That's why we've had literally thousands of different deities in the history of mankind. So this school of thought is a failed approach to me because it can't give a definitive answer. Take a look at the tea pot thought experiment (or the flying spaghetti monster if you will ).

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

L'enfer c'est les autres.

Huis clos, Jean-Paul Sartre.

Translation:
Hell is the others (human being).

Some nice philosophical subject for a degree graduate.

So yes hell exist, even for atheists. 

A bit of Jerome Bosch work to illustrate:

http://www.pietropaganini.it/2018/05/12/decennio-nero/

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Scott2000, Bosch is a 'regular' and wide spread name in german's cultural influenced country. You could even find a brand of tools with this name in EU.

If you are Christian and didn t know of Jerome Bosch you should investigate a bit more his own work.

From XV century and Netherland he is seen as one of the few who represented 'classical' views of 'Christian's hell'.

Which i do find interesting ( other than his own vision of hell ) is that even for specialist in the 'Art historical' they don t know if he was a moralist or a subversive element.

I always find the 'grey area' much more interesting than the black or white area.  Maybe this is an expression of the atheist in me which speak here, or a cultural difference/accent from my european location ( we EU citizens sometime think that US is too much manichean in our view).

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

It is sure you had been in contact with his work one way or another.

In a way it is one of the initiator of how the western civilization depicts 'hell', men with chains at legs driven to an outrageously depicted demon...

All this kind of representations ARE cultural manifestations which had time (6 century) to 'infect' the subconscious of our civilizations, so representation we have of what is or should be 'hell'.

This is true for all civilizations of all times imho.(for example  'the black lodge' in David Lynch's "twin peaks" does the same things with indians demons /civilization which make it weird for us who doesn t have the cultural references to boot on, other example could be found from Egyptian, Maya's, Aztec's ... ).

Just imagine how the future is going to interpret the art of H.R. Giger for example, or the full horor movies production when they will unburry them in some millenary.
(I m not even talking about the abduction, Extra Terrestrial threat or other ideas widely spread in our civilization!).

 

[Script]

If the world as we know it was to perish and some distant future civilization (or even aliens, haha) were to discover some of the 'artifacts' that we leave behind (including books, films, records, museums, political speeches, thoughts etc etc, alongside all those other things that even we today consider purely historical), I love to imagine that they will probably feel they are undigging the weirdest of stuff and that many, if not most, people living in those long-gone 'cultures' must have had a ding for a dong and a dong for a brain. 

 

[bluebird]

Lol... I personally think we are alien babies, it seems to make the most sense. We must be in the adolescent phase of our species development. 

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Next phase is to built some kind of monolith with ratio 9:4:1 for dimension, paint it black and start travel thru space and time ( with "thus spoke zarathustra" as background soundtrack).

(I don t want to offense anyone so please take it as a joke which it is really.)
Ding for a dong... makes me feel like Jesus build my hotrod! And talking about Jesus and Alien i can t resist:

https://youtu.be/pxhgCHSpfqE
;D

 

[DaveP]

This debate is not so much about whether hell exists or not, as whether there is any spiritual after life at all.

The long passage of time may dull the memory, but it does not change certain facts.  No-one doubts that Julius Caesar existed or that his contemporary Jesus Christ lived or died on the cross.  The fact that Jesus rose from the dead is evinced by the fact that Roman soldiers were stationed to guard the tomb yet they ran away terrified.

Even though the Romans were all powerful at that time, and could have re-written the historical record if they so wished, they didn't.  Jesus appeared to many people after the event (read it yourself) and these appearances so invigorated his crushed  and beaten disciples that they were able to found a worldwide religion that was even adopted by the Roman Empire itself later on.

This much is fact, so if you want to rubbish this with your own version of events, then you will be up against world historians.

Good Luck with that.

Many many people, including those with a scientific or medical backgrounds, have had spiritual experiences, out of the body experiences and NDE's,  The weight of evidence mounts as time goes forwards.  Just because these experiences have not happened to you yet, is no reason to doubt their authenticity, any more than you would doubt that anyone could win a lottery because you have never met one yourself.

DaveP

 

[desol]

Thanks for your message Dave. I had always read the Bible off and on, but there was a skeptic always saying, 'they could've invented or changed the story to meet their needs; to control people(even if the bible says not to change anything)'.......'they could've misinterpreted what was happening when they saw the 'supposed' miracles; Jesus could have simply been a trained physician back in the day, and that's all He was'.......'nothing like that has ever happened since, so the story must be a fairy tale'.......'there's no proof'.......'look at all the present day stories about priests and what they've done, Christian's are the worst'.......'look at all the end of the world believers, they're always wrong', etc.

All the proof I needed in my personal case, was found in the NDE testimonials describing hell, that were given to these people by Christ. And remember folks, I had a very hardened heart at the time against people, in general. I was not emphatic towards nonsense. The experiences are two-fold; as warnings to them personally, and warnings for rest of us. I simply could not disprove their authenticity, even with my hardened heart.

Then there's all the things that I'VE experienced personally that I felt were telling me something, weird coincidences, happenings throughout my life, etc. Things that deep down I KNEW were something else. It all led up to one thing that finally 'said', these people are telling the Truth. It's not just a story. Hell exists(and it makes logical sense, if you think about it...) and that was enough to make me accept the rest. 'I' needed to be frightened into accepting the Truth, which I'm now fine with; it's the reason these people are reporting their experiences, some even kind of reluctantly. God is to be feared, because He IS strict, and all of these experiences are testimony that He will hold people accountable for their denial of Him, greed, listening to the devil, bad behavior, etc. If you live your own life the way 'you' want, without accepting him, you have your reward. God doesn't need to explain his logic to a person, that's why he's the boss and you're not. When a person dies, your game is over. You've had lots of time to think about it. Good luck with that.

In my case, being frightened by these many testimonies led me to accept Jesus as 'Lord' and Savior, and to take Him seriously. Obviously many others accept Christ without being frightened, however fear and Truth ultimately trumped logic.

 

[DaveP]

@Desol    +1
@Alec      +1

DaveP

 

[Script]

Yes, Constantine the Great, an overly practically oriented person. He sort of 'adopted' Christianity to unite armies for battle, but he lived a pagan life himself and convert only on his deathbed. Thanks to Constantine, Christianity was first tolerated, then got gradually established as a sort of state religion that, no doubt, helped keep the empire together.

I know, his role is debated by historians. But having read about this topic, including a bunch of historical documents, the above interpretation sounds  pretty convincing to me. But then again that's just me.

Constantine also ordered beautiful churches to be built. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem is definitely worth a visit or two -- for both Christians and Non-Christians. Some historians doubt that it is the correct spot, but I guess it doesn't matter.

Anyway, I absolutely recommend avoiding high season by all means  when visiting and also strongly advice against starting  any kind of religious discussion there, especially with believers. Also: refrain from blasphemy and jokes. It's a beautiful place but also a holy site -- alongside being a circus.

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Sorry Dave but i don t get you there.

The title of the thread is 'hell exist'.

So to me it is about that not about the hypothetical spiritual life after death.

I find interesting the philosophical question it open because as i quoted Sartre give a different perspective to non believers which by definition doesn t agree in the existence/concept of hell or heaven  ( and it should nt be taken literaly as he didn t mean that the others are hell but more that the image others bring back to you is different of the one you make of yourself and this is where hell is in his view from what i understood).

I don t get you neither about Nde or out of body experience: what tells you both didn t happened to others (me) and that it didn t have the same impact in life than the one you or others believers experienced?

It all reduce to personal choice and perspective.

I don t want to rewrite history but what you describe about romanians and the fall of their culture is just that to me. It happened to every society known. Rise, apogee then fall of a system of beliefs or an economical system then the 'reuse' of some of this in other society.
Romanians reused in parts the gods from antic greece, and some parts of their political structure.
Muslim religion incorporate Jesus and archangel Gabriel as part of his scheme of thought iirc.

Humans does need some foundations to build themself as individuals but as group too. Religions and the history they brings are/was this foundations.
I
have great respect for individual faith and if it bring happyness and joy for believers this is great. But others can just be critical of the story tolds in the foundations without denaying the individual faith.

Like others here i do have some difficulties about the concept of heaven/hell. This is too much a human thing to use this kind of fear to manipulate people thought and we have daily experience of this in the political field.
Moral and ethics doesn t have to enter the field of faith in MY view.

Once it is done it become politics and Umberto Eco's novel 'the name of the rose' pretty nail down what politic can do to faith.

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

The long passage of time may dull the memory, but it does not change certain facts.  No-one doubts that Julius Caesar existed or that his contemporary Jesus Christ lived or died on the cross.  The fact that Jesus rose from the dead is evinced by the fact that Roman soldiers were stationed to guard the tomb yet they ran away terrified.

Even though the Romans were all powerful at that time, and could have re-written the historical record if they so wished, they didn't.  Jesus appeared to many people after the event (read it yourself) and these appearances so invigorated his crushed  and beaten disciples that they were able to found a worldwide religion that was even adopted by the Roman Empire itself later on.

This much is fact, so if you want to rubbish this with your own version of events, then you will be up against world historians.

Good Luck with that.

I more or less agree with your description of what Bible and historians says except about the point that Jesus appeared to many people after his death.

This is not a fact, this is not verified by anyone. This is a story you make the choice to believe or not.
And the point where you become a believer or not.
In my view both choices are equally valid and both are respectful.

I will give an other example (where feelings and personal choices shouldn't interfere):
Atlantis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis

Does the existence of Atlantis is proven by the fact that Plato talked about it?
It is part of history though as it was mentionned by one of the great thinker of Antics which (more or less) gave us the foundation of the society we are living in. At least the allegorie part of the story is real as it justified the superiority of the state concept.

I would not say that Atlantis existed though.
But that is me, some are still looking for where this island was located and pretty sure they will find proof of its existence as an island. (Most do think it was located in the Gibraltar detroit).

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Scott,
i'm not asking anyone to proove me anything neither i'm trying to convince anyone.

Faith is a personal choice you make or not. I respect the fact that you made the choice to believe, please respect the choice i've made not to believe.

Facts can be prooven. Once it can't, this is faith.

No one can proove Jesus resurected. You just heard or read it had, no one can proove he was white skin with long black hair, no one can proove (if) evil exist (he does have horns or clogs) ...

I can proove you tomorrow morning sun will rise because you'll have light around your part of the earth. I can proove i have two legs and one nose. 

If the discussion is about convincing people for me this is proselytizing and i'll stop communicate because i never tryied to change your point of view nor will have mine changed. 

I'll be sad though because i like to have point of view of other people and share ideas even if i'm not convinced, and because i love people (most of them and this is a choice i've made by myself).

Peace to you all.