Hell exists

[desol]

The point is 'not' to try to understand, only to believe what many are experiencing, which goes against all objective methods humanity has come to rely upon. 'Far' dissimilar to what I am used to giving myself over to. But I've made my choice, after months of analyzing many many different accounts, and exactly why I am here now, doing my share. I believe them; what they have experienced...and I believe that Christ died on the cross for our sins. I believe it, without hesitation or question.

The questioning is the problem, paradoxically. Just listen, and make your 'own' choice. If you find their accounts to be true, then the rest must be as well.

I can tell when people are lying...easily. Grown military men, shedding tears. Neurologists without explanation. Spinal doctors without explanation. Athiests in tears.

'It's' fighting to make you fall asleep, and it needs no introduction.

 

[Diabolical Artificer]

"and I believe that Christ died on the cross for our sins. I believe it, without hesitation or question." Whatever gets you through the day, but for myself I find it hard to understand how anyone can have so much faith in words written in any book of dubious origin.

The Bible, Koran or whatever were written by men, translated by men, the accounts of past actions written sometimes century's after the events.  They are contruct's of man not Gods.

The fact that too often religious text  is used to justify violence, hatred, greed and mans inhumanity towards his fellow men destroys any truth or credence these "holy" books may have had.For instance, and  I know I'm gonna cop some grief for this but where in the Bible does it say that owning guns is cool and only white men go to heaven? Just watched a documentary or the Christian Right Wing in the USA, kinda puts one off Christianity.

As regards NDE's I've had several out of body experiences and seen some odd things, it's easy to see these as religious in nature which i did at the time, when in fact I'd just had too many drugs. Pain, hunger or other extremes can do the same thing.

Not saying there isn't a great spirit or whatever or there isn't more to life than what we perceive in the day to day, just that the human mind is a complex trickster. As a one time seeker of The Truth with head full of faery farts I've found in old age that a lot of the magic was just illusion.

Blessed be, Andy.

 

[living sounds]

Wow, the only topic more contentious then politics is here.  8)

I look at the size of the multiverse (or the parts of it we are aware of) and the tiny little dot we are on and the the time the universe has existed compared to the blink-of-an-eye of christianity (or any other religion) and the way humans are wired for narratives (and that the Jesus-narrative is a composition of several sucessfull older narratives), wired for interaction with people (who the brain memorizes as undying agents, making it almost impossible  to consider them truly gone) and how spiritually may very likely be evolutionary selected and how brain chemistry can generate NDEs and how mathematically it is more likely we live in a simulation than material reality (whatever that is) and a host of other facts and scientific findings

- and conclude that the only logical explanation can be that it is highly unlikely that any religious dogmas so obviously fullfilling the desperate needs of many humans are the actual factual truth. 

I am not wired for spiritualilty at all. I was dragged to church every sunday as a child and always found it to be a very strange and fantastical thing. I can get a shiver looking at the milky way at night (somewhere you can actually see it these days) contemplating the vastness of time and space. I have accepted that the explanation for it all is very likely permanently beyond our grasp.

 

[desol]

"and I believe that Christ died on the cross for our sins. I believe it, without hesitation or question." Whatever gets you through the day, but for myself I find it hard to understand how anyone can have so much faith in words written in any book of dubious origin.

The Bible, Koran or whatever were written by men, translated by men, the accounts of past actions written sometimes century's after the events.  They are contruct's of man not Gods.

The fact that too often religious text  is used to justify violence, hatred, greed and mans inhumanity towards his fellow men destroys any truth or credence these "holy" books may have had.For instance, and  I know I'm gonna cop some grief for this but where in the Bible does it say that owning guns is cool and only white men go to heaven? Just watched a documentary or the Christian Right Wing in the USA, kinda puts one off Christianity.

As regards NDE's I've had several out of body experiences and seen some odd things, it's easy to see these as religious in nature which i did at the time, when in fact I'd just had too many drugs. Pain, hunger or other extremes can do the same thing.

Not saying there isn't a great spirit or whatever or there isn't more to life than what we perceive in the day to day, just that the human mind is a complex trickster. As a one time seeker of The Truth with head full of faery farts I've found in old age that a lot of the magic was just illusion.

Blessed be, Andy.

For me, it's not really about whatever gets me through the day, anymore. It's about a multitude of experiences that many trained, professional people and unprofessional people have had with seeing hell. Different experiences, from different times and places yet remarkably similar to each other, and honest. The honesty in their experience. The missing limbs. The disfigured faces from gunshots. I chose not to ignore it this time.

I wasn't look for anything to get me through the day, after months of watching and studying their recollections. I wasn't coming at if from a point of needing faith. I didn't. All I needed was physics and medicine. - I was approaching their recollections from a point of objectivity, and proof.

If I believe their experience to be true, which I do, then the rest must be as well.

 

[desol]

Wow, the only topic more contentious then politics is here.  8)

I get the feeling that this one is gonna stay under control.

 

[Tubetec]

Well holy god,  ;D

This topic mushroom clouded ,Im just up after a great night on the beer, I tried to speed read everything thats been said and I got brainfart after a couple of posts .Id say I'm going to have to it down chew it down to formulate some kind of response .lots of interesting perspectives raised .

I think a coffee and a blast of Wheelers redneck $h!t is required for breakfast  8)
I'll be back as the man said .....

 

[59flame]

desol i have seen many of the same things that you have. I believed b4 but seeing some of these things can really astound you and shore you up as a believer. I don't need any of their stories to believe but their is no doubt their testimonies can be very powerful. It has made me thankful and grateful to God for the oppurtunity to be in his kingdom.  I love walking the straight path as best i can and i do fall short on occasion. But when i finally became convinced  that sin does lead to death it made it alot easier to move from that lifestyle.  When i say it leads to death i don't mean  physical death but more situational and relational death and many other type as well.  if i had affair with a coworker and got caught by my wife that will create death in my relationship probable seperation from my  kids and  that can create pain sometimes for a lifetime not just for me but my kids as well.  I have waivered and walked the unrighteous road ,  but am glad to be back in that righteous direction now like you. Stay with it brother. If we are wrong we did nothing but believe in something that hopes to keep couple married and families together amongst many other good things . But if we were wrong we know how that story ends. A good question we should ask is  this:  Have we ever been wrong when we  just knew we were  right? And the answer is we all have if we have lived long at all and are honest. Well this is one we should hope to get right! Besides it's the best way to live.  IMHO!

 

[desol]

Indeed. I completely agree with all of that.

The second death is a very serious personal decision.

 

[living sounds]

I like free will.

Scientifically free will is a pretty dubious construct. You have to invent a "ghost in the machine" to get around the very well proven axiom of causality, but from a systematic point of view there simply is no need for that. Brains are perfectly sufficient to generate the epiphenomenon called consciousness, though the actual way it works is more complex than previously assumed ( I recently read a very interesting book called "The Other Brain" dealing with glial cells, which are just as important as neurons for processing).

There might even be a connection to the probabilistic quantum world in decision making, though again, it is probably not necessary and it isn't really "freedom" but "randomness" playing itself out.

 

[59flame]

Most believers believe the bible was inspired by God through man. These men were just vessels for Gods spirit to work through. It  was either inspired by God or it wasn't. If it was and is trully Gods word given to men then it cannot be corrupted by man or that would mean man is greater then God.  Whatever the catholic church did or this or that means nothing.  If books were taken out or whatever is said to have happened is pointless because  the meaning that God wanted to convey is still there today.  It's either Gods inspired word to mankind or it isn't.  Now i believe man can interpret it wrong and preach it wrong because we are a fallen man but the bible is truth.  Was back then still is today.

 

[desol]

How can the 'human mind' which is immeasurably less complex than the mind of God, sort the entire universe out. We're bound to this galaxy. We can't even travel next door. Einstein had one of the greatest, most objective yet creative minds there ever was, and even he at the end of his life could not call himself an athiest. Spinoza, or animism, was the closest thing he could resolve, yet not deny? Even 'he' could not figure it out. We're still trying to prove his scientific theories, a hundred years later?

The very act of relying on your mind, as it is shown, is in essence an act of rejection or denial. Self reliance, which for me, as I now know, is not smart. Once you know, for yourself, what the truth is...you have no more excuses or reasons other than disbelief to fall back on. For me, it is a very serious decision, one that I do not take lightly.

You may think, we 'will' figure it out...in time. But how much time do 'you' have?

 

[59flame]

It would seem that we will never know everything because the universe is so vast and  and most assuredly is more complex then we know today.  No one can and will ever know all there is to know in a lifetime. So this has always made me wonder about an atheistic viewpoint. Doesn't it seem a little  silly saying there  definately  is no God when you have no way of knowing everything.  So how does one make a definitive answer that "God is not Real" when they have no way of knowing all things. Agnostic for someone who doubts Gods existence seems a much more responsible position. That is to say" I just don't know"  It could however be argued that  Christians on the other hand  are the same(not for sure knowing). But for most true christian believers their is relationship with a living God who manifests himself to them spiritually. This shores up their  blind faith and makes it no longer blind faith but a spirit guiding them toward good decision making and all the blessings that come. Everyone must choose their own path for me and my house we shall follow the Lord.

 

[desol]

It's important to point out from my understanding, that when he says the Lord, he means the name which many are embarrassed to say; Jesus. A person must accept Jesus 'as' their Lord and Saviour, as the only way to avoid the second death; 'hell'. God knows our hearts and minds.

From my understanding, this is one of the most powerful weapons the devil uses against humanity(along with money and pride(self reliance)), that you will be condemned by your fellow man, for saying Jesus's name. That you will be embarrassed. That you will feel silly. Since the beginning and still to this day.

I believe these people's accounts of their experiences seeing hell, over my fear of embarrassment.

 

[boji]

it isn't really "freedom" but "randomness" playing itself out.

I don't see the distinction. If quantum indeterminacy rides ahead of comprehension, and yet the ghost still needs to make a choice within a given amount of time, that sounds a lot like freedom to me.

 

[59flame]

It would seem that we will never know everything because the universe is so vast and  and most assuredly is more complex then we know today.  No one can and will ever know all there is to know in a lifetime. So this has always made me wonder about an atheistic viewpoint. Doesn't it seem a little  silly saying there  definately  is no God when you have no way of knowing everything.  So how does one make a definitive answer that "God is not Real" when they have no way of knowing all things. Agnostic for someone who doubts Gods existence seems a much more responsible position. That is to say" I just don't know"  It could however be argued that  Christians on the other hand  are the same(not for sure knowing). But for most true christian believers their is relationship with a living God who manifests himself to them spiritually. This shores up their  blind faith and makes it no longer blind faith but a spirit guiding them toward good decision making and all the blessings that come. Everyone must choose their own path for me and my house we shall follow the Lord.

Jesus said it best!  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.        John 14:6

 

[boji]

the only topic more contentious then politics is here.

In debating politics, there's at least a remote chance someone may provide empirical info that carries an argument forward and turns an opinion.  ;D

 

[volker]

I get the feeling that this one is gonna stay under control.

Why, is god watching over it?

 

[boji]

Quote from: desol on Today at 08:25:45 AM
I get the feeling that this one is gonna stay under control.

Why, is god watching over it?

lol Volker you cheeky b****d

 

[59flame]

In debating politics, there's at least a remote chance someone may provide empirical info that carries an argument forward and turns an opinion.  ;D

This is why these discussions are pointless between believers and non believers. Because you must accept Jesus and be born again first  to access the holy spirit or these spiritual things will confuse and confound you.  Here is a verse speaking directly to this. 

1st corinthians 2:10 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Now i will rest as i don't mean anyone harm it's just aggrevating when this is constantly what we who believe and live by the spirit come up against having to explain spiritual things to a world who has not the spirit.

 

[desol]

Why, is god watching over it?

No, I have my free will. One of my objectives for this topic was to offer that I found proof through these other people's experiences, and to not to let it degrade into a heated debate of contentiousness.