Hell exists

[desol]

I hope your dad pulls through this ok S2000.

 

[59flame]

It's understandable to me that empirical evidence is relied upon. I'm not sure if it is still evolving in it's form as I'm sure it evolved from something missing but, it is what it is right now. Reading wiki it explains how a thermometer in a room can prove what the temperature is but can't explain why some feel hot or cold in the same room. Or something like that.

Of course then studies can be made to figure that out......etc...

I definitely appreciate it being used to figure stuff out, and I'm ok especially if it's being used to cure diseases etc...
.... My Dad is having 45 days straight of radiation and a lifetime of his testosterone being shut down and, although I suspect some evidence will change as this being the definitive treatment sometime in the future, well,, it is what it is right now. A good thing....


Thanks for sharing your thoughts...

        i hope for the best for you and yours. that can be tough!

 

[DaveP]

Desol, you are a brave man.

In support of what you say.............

On the 31st of December 1976 I was in Africa reading a book by Father Bennett called "The Holy Spirit and You".

To cut to the chase, during the course of reading it, I spoke in another language.  I felt I was bathed in a golden glow and I experienced a separation of mind and spirit.

My mind was like Whaaaaaaaaaaat, but my spirit was in its element, if that makes sense.

Then it hit me that none of this was my doing, it was a kind of gift from God, then that made me realise that the Bible was true.

I say this as a witness statement, I am not interested in arguing the toss about it.  It has never happened again, but the experience has never left me either, it has been a rock to cling to during some pretty bad times.

This boys true life experience supports what we are talking about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mydh4MEo2B0

Best
DaveP

 

[Script]

I recommend reading William James 'Varieties of religious experience'.

It's old already. James was a psychologist and American pragmatist. And in this book he touches upon and compares the 'experiences' across many different and seemingly unrelated religions. I'd say a worthwhile read for anyone interested in religion -- be it a religious believer ( in or of whatever) or a non-religious person like me (third generation without religion).

 

[living sounds]

I don't see the distinction. If quantum indeterminacy rides ahead of comprehension, and yet the ghost still needs to make a choice within a given amount of time, that sounds a lot like freedom to me.

Well, it's a throw of the dice. So the dice makes the choice for you. And there is no ghost in the dice. But, at the end of the day, it probably doesn't matter anyway if it is deterministic or probabilistic, since as stated the choice is never really a choice. It is more likely that any quantum processing in the brain is just increasing its efficiency, the way quantum effects increase efficiency of photosynthesis.

Anyone wanting to know more I can recommend the book "Life on the Edge: The Coming of Age of Quantum Biology".  Unlike many books with the word "quantum" in it it is not hokum.

 

[desol]

Desol, you are a brave man.

In support of what you say.............

On the 31st of December 1976 I was in Africa reading a book by Father Bennett called "The Holy Spirit and You".

To cut to the chase, during the course of reading it, I spoke in another language.  I felt I was bathed in a golden glow and I experienced a separation of mind and spirit.

My mind was like Whaaaaaaaaaaat, but my spirit was in its element, if that makes sense.

Then it hit me that none of this was my doing, it was a kind of gift from God, then that made me realise that the Bible was true.

I say this as a witness statement, I am not interested in arguing the toss about it.  It has never happened again, but the experience has never left me either, it has been a rock to cling to during some pretty bad times.

This boys true life experience supports what we are talking about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mydh4MEo2B0

Best
DaveP

Dave,

Thank you for your message, and the youtube link. It means a lot.


To the others: give yourselves a chance to accept that this could be a possibility, despite anything you think you may know...but also give yourself a chance to understand that the title of this topic is so horrible, so painful and everlasting for your willful rejection of Jesus as the 'actual' Savior and your disobedience to God. Go, watch youtube video after youtube video after youtube video of people who have died and seen hell, and you tell me if you think they are lying. You owe it, to yourself. You will be able to see the truth in their eyes....their tears, the complexity and differences, yet similarities in their experiences.

They're not making it up, and they're not copying other people.

There is an 'actual' spirit world. In that world, there is a 'literal' fork on a road, in the outer darkness. It's hard to believe, but it's true. 'Souls' are walking, in chains, single file(i know this sounds crazy) towards a very 'real' and terrible hell...'asleep' to the truth. Imagine your soul. Turn around and go back...to the fork, 'no-thing' can stop you...and start to walk the other way. It gets easier once you start. It's not worth it...for any amount of money or being embarrassed, or whatever. You're not smart enough to figure it out, and you don't have time. This life, and death are not important, ultimately. This life is a test that God is using to weed out the good from the bad...the keepers and the throw aways, if I may. It's the 'second death' that we need to take seriously and understand is real. I've told you the truth...and now you know it. So there's no excuses. It's a personal decision. And there's only one chance.

There are many 'christians' in hell. This is 'not' an easy(spiritual) path to 'walk'....but you must do it, and you must be obedient.

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

 

[Tubetec]

I think sometimes breakthroughs in undertstanding of the world and traumatic experiences come together and we see the face of god ,depending on how open the superstitious side of your mind is you can convince yourself just about anything at that point ,I prefer the more rational explanations

Theres an interesting thing in the Irish language ,the word for church  'eaglish' is almost the same as fear  'eagla'. There might be nothing to this interesting verbal quirk ,im not sure .

Theres an old  saying here ,'you had the fear of god put across you' ,maybe something in the stories of the guys you met  caused a kind of rift in your view of the world ,now the brain is vulnerable to superstition and needs to rewire itself .The God delusion fits in nicely here , you can box stuff off ,good and bad ,its not a bad baseline ,most religions have a set of core principles which in many ways are broadly the same and help us to live a better life ,the actual manmade institutions I think are a load of garbage really.

Im not even sure my view is of any value to you Delsol , but there it is anyway ,best of luck along the road .

 

[Script]

'Religion' comes from Latin.

One ethnological interpretation has it that it comes from:
Religare = to bind fast.

Somewhat in the sense of 'bind back to (something)', I think.

 

[desol]

I think sometimes breakthroughs in undertstanding of the world and traumatic experiences come together and we see the face of god ,depending on how open the superstitious side of your mind is you can convince yourself just about anything at that point ,I prefer the more rational explanations

Hey Tubetec. Thank you for your rational input...however, this has nothing to do with anything other than 'objectively viewing testimonies over a lengthly period of time, of people that have gone to hell'. Watching their expressions, reactions...listening for things that seem to be copies of other videos..similarities, deceptions in their stories. Nothing to do with personal trauma's, experiences, etc.

It was approached from a critical thought perspective. I could not find any deception in their eyes, speech, etc. Many of the accounts are similar yet dissimilar enough.

Theres an old saying here ,'you had the fear of god put across you' ,maybe something in the stories of the guys you met  caused a kind of rift in your view of the world ,now the brain is vulnerable to superstition and needs to rewire itself .The God delusion fits in nicely here , you can box stuff off ,good and bad ,its not a bad baseline ,most religions have a set of core principles which in many ways are broadly the same and help us to live a better life ,the actual manmade institutions I think are a load of garbage really.

Im not even sure my view is of any value to you Delsol , but there it is anyway ,best of luck along the road .

Again, this is no delusion. This is based off of real accounts by people who had experiences.

Also, I'd like to point out...that souls yes, by accounts...seem to leave the body...so what I mentioned earlier about the lineup...was mentioned across a few of the experiences. These people claimed to have witnessed souls or representations of, treading along with chains on their legs and hands, on the way to. But anyways....don't ask me to explain it....I can't.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

It was approached from a critical thought perspective. I could not find any deception in their eyes, speech, etc. Many of the accounts are similar yet dissimilar enough.

If we're going to use critical thought then I would suggest that you couldn't find any deception in their eyes and speech etc because they believed what they were saying.  That does not make it real or true.

One supposes that at it's very simplest when someone dies the body's electrical system goes into collapse.  The human brain is a pattern matching machine and will try to rationalize what has happened during and after the fact - relating it to and measuring it against past experiences, concepts and learnings.  The brain's experience of dying could be simplified into three categories - painful/terrifying (hell), neutral/void(black/nothingness), or white lights/peaceful/release etc (heaven).

I don't pay much attention to what my screen does or what the output ports on my computer spit out when it crashes, it's chaos and random.  But if I looked for meaning in it i could probably find evidence of something i believed.

I have no wish to convince you of anything, I hope that you find peace and happiness in your new beliefs.  As someone who grew up in Catholic Ireland I have only experienced the opposite from religion and notions of heaven and hell. 

 

[Matador]

To the others: give yourselves a chance to accept that this could be a possibility, despite anything you think you may know...but also give yourself a chance to understand that the title of this topic is so horrible, so painful and everlasting for your willful rejection of Jesus as the 'actual' Savior and your disobedience to God.

Why Jesus, and not Allah, or Tetragrammaton, or Vishnu?

 

[desol]

If we're going to use critical thought then I would suggest that you couldn't find any deception in their eyes and speech etc because they believed what they were saying.  That does not make it real or true.

One supposes that at it's very simplest when someone dies the body's electrical system goes into collapse.  The human brain is a pattern matching machine and will try to rationalize what has happened during and after the fact - relating it to and measuring it against past experiences, concepts and learnings.  The brain's experience of dying could be simplified into three categories - painful/terrifying (hell), neutral/void(black/nothingness), or white lights/peaceful/release etc (heaven).

I don't pay much attention to what my screen does or what the output ports on my computer spit out when it crashes, it's chaos and random.  But if I looked for meaning in it i could probably find evidence of something i believed.

I have no wish to convince you of anything, I hope that you find peace and happiness in your new beliefs.  As someone who grew up in Catholic Ireland I have only experienced the opposite from religion and notions of heaven and hell.

Thanks for your input Ruari. You do realize that I realize all of that...there's just too many to discount. There is no peace and happiness at the moment. Only realizing what I need to do, given my own decision.

 

[desol]

Why Jesus, and not Allah, or Tetragrammaton, or Vishnu?

Questions. Questions. Questions.

 

[Tubetec]

Another thing that came to mind is sometimes when people relate to us traumatic events it can almost trigger flashbacks of negative experiences we've had in our own lives ,all of a sudden powerfull emotions can be unleashed , Theres a very dear neighbour of mine sadly departed from us now she helped councill me through a dark time at one stage ,which I am eternally greatfull to her for ,but she and me agreed that sometimes the councillor ends up needing councilling themslelves ,and we had a little joke about Tony Soppranos pshyc . I heard a few soldiers tales along the way and they tend to reveal a very dark and disturbing side to human behaviour which can really shake your foundations .

Im playing catchup with the previous threads again ,its a fast mover this topic .

 

[59flame]

Why Jesus, and not Allah, or Tetragrammaton, or Vishnu?

For me at least it is  because we are in the year 2018. Why 2018. What event was so important for all the world to see as a reason to acknowledge that date.  Jesus birth  bc before christ and AD Anno Domini " in the year of our lord"  But more importantly  with the death burial and resurrection thru the blood of christ we are in fellowship with a living God. One who can speak and guides us daily.  There will be manifestations that are hard to explain to others because they are your experiences with God. But i can tell you for me thay are very real. Most all other religions that i know of and i must profess i don't spend alot of time studying other God's or religions,  but i have some knowledge  and from what i gather it is no relationship at all. More like worshipping a statue with a book of rules you must follow or else bad carma might come.  One thing i have always thought interesting was it seems you could be at your table for a family get together  with all your family members in small  groups  conversing on anything and everything and i could say yamaha or blue sky or any word and no response but when i say jesus it gets weird. Why does that word cause uneasyness. Because it is the spirit of God manifested in that name and it is alive and well and in is in direct opposition to the spirit of anti-christ  that controls this fallen world that we are bombarded with all day long.  That name conjers up more energy then any other name.  At least that is what i have lived and observed. Not trying to cause waves to each his own but just wanted to share my thoughts because i heard that question asked alot.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

One thing i have always thought interesting was it seems you could be at your table for a family get together  with all your family members in small  groups  conversing on anything and everything and i could say yamaha or blue sky or any word and no response but when i say jesus it gets weird. Why does that word cause uneasyness. Because it is the spirit of God manifested in that name and it is alive and well and in is in direct opposition to the spirit of anti-christ  that controls this fallen world that we are bombarded with all day long.  That name conjers up more energy then any other name.

My personal experience is that when someone brings up Jesus in casual conversation it almost always leads to what are to me irrational statements.  Often with a judgmental side portion of homophobia, sexism, or subtle or not so subtle sideswipes at other belief systems (see above).  I don't believe that it's the Spirit of God that is making people uncomfortable in these situations, it's certainly not what is making me uncomfortable.

I know better than to argue this stuff. 

 

[59flame]

My personal experience is that when someone brings up Jesus in casual conversation it almost always leads to what are to me irrational statements.  Often with a judgmental side portion of homophobia, sexism, or subtle or not so subtle sideswipes at other belief systems (see above).  I don't believe that it's the Spirit of God that is making people uncomfortable in these situations, it's certainly not what is making me uncomfortable.

I know better than to argue this stuff.

I could be wrong about that. Just a curious observation  but  really the main point was more the upper portion of what I wrote about Jesus birth being 2018 years ago and how the world agrees how important that date was that the calendar is observant of it BC to Ad.  I hope you wouldn't consider that a irrational response.  It must have been very important date. I would hope we could agree on that

 

[Diabolical Artificer]

A lot to absorb and some great thoughts, too much to comment on ( so I'll just waffle) , but ain't it great that we're having a grown conversation without any throwing hissy fits.

desol, I get that from seeing various accounts of NDE you believe that hell exists, but how does it follow that "accepting Jesus" prevent's one going to hell? Just curious. You also mentioned in one of your posts that Gods mind is complex, how do you know this?

Coming back to proof of the existence of hell, you will also find very convincing evidence of reincarnation, now that can't be right, we either go to hell or come back as Donald Trump's wife, mind you that could be said to be a form of hell, imagine having to look at his ugly mush as he does the business : ) Hell of a price to pay for a posh handbag.

Seriously though the human mind and brain are very complex, the problem is, is that  we each see and interpret different outputs from the same inputs. However  one thing I have found is that there is a definate correlation between how we act and treat our fellow inhabitants on the planet and the quality of our lives as a result; action and reaction, karma, whatever. Whether that's due to the unseen hands of the Gods or just a social dynamic interaction, it's up to the individuals interpretation.

A few last words on Gods, the Chinese have a very down to earth outlook on them, believing that sometimes the Gods are asleep, off picking their noses or just not arsed when your clinging to the edge of a cliff by your fingertips.

 

[DaveP]

As someone who grew up in Catholic Ireland I have only experienced the opposite from religion and notions of heaven and hell.

This is entirely understandable, enormous damage has been done in Ireland by those who should have known better.  I can't think of a quicker way to hell than to abuse children in God's name, He is going to take it personally, I believe.

The hardest part of religious understanding is trying to discern the truth from the messenger.

The copies of the message are rarely digital quality, they are often like one of Edison's wax cylinders.

Preachers with an agenda have misinterpreted Bible passages for their own ends, here is a list of a few I can recall

The "Children of Ham", was used to justify slavery.

The "Sin of Onan" was used to suppress masturbation, when it was originally about hardness of heart.

The "Whore of Rome" was used by Calvinists to encourage hatred of Catholics etc, etc.

There are very clear warnings in the Bible about messing with God's word, this is how some "Christians" will end up going to hell.

DaveP

 

[DaveP]

What does amaze me is the general reluctance to accept what looks like supernatural events from people of a scientific background.

We have no problem with electrons because we can measure their flow and hear what they produce in tubes or chips, no-one has ever seen one though.  We might find it a little harder to believe in charmed quarks or the Higg's bosun, but we trust the people who do.

We find the concept of Black Holes out of the ordinary (where does all this stuff go?) but we seem to believe they exist.  We accept that nothing can move faster than light speed and that time slows the faster you go, even though these concepts are out of our everyday experience.

So I ask, why is it so difficult to accept that our spirit and our memories can leave our bodies for another dimension?  You are happy to upload your data to the cloud for retrieval to another device, is it such a leap of faith?

It stands to reason that if you leave space/time with your information intact, you are in eternity.  Eternity means being without the constraints of time.  We don't know the mechanism yet, but at one stage we thought the Earth was flat and the Sun went around the Earth.  We thought that the elements were Earth, Air, Fire and Water around the time of  the the American war of independence, now we have 118 and counting.  Who is to say what another 250 years of scientific understanding will bring to the table?  I don't believe you have to choose between science or religion, they are not mutually exclusive IMHO.

Read the account of the formation of the Earth in Genesis, it is all there in practically the right order, yet it was written by (Moses?) with no scientific knowledge whatsoever.  Someone once wrote that scientists will one day struggle to the top of the mountain, only to find the prophets already sitting there, makes you think!

DaveP