Hell exists

[Spiritworks]

Some questions that have arisen from my own journey:

How does imperfection come out of perfection?
How does rebellion come out of perfect love?
How does free will and choice come out of omniscience and omnipotence?
How does perfect love allow such suffering?

And yet, I choose to work towards the Light, though I stumble often.

 

[living sounds]

There are "real" accounts of people meeting aliens, Bigfoot, fairies etc. That's not evidence. Any actual studies on out-of-body experiences (like where they put numbers up on the lamp at the ceiling of intensive care units) were negative. I read a book or two about D.M.T. too, and it is remarkable what this substance can do. It is at naturally elevated levels during the R.E.M. (dream) phase of sleep.

Occam's razor teaches us that the most likely explanation is usually the best explanation. In this case it is: Impaired brain function generates NDEs.

Good link:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-death-of-near-death-even-if-heaven-is-real-you-arent-seeing-it/

 

[DaveP]

Some questions that have arisen from my own journey:

How does imperfection come out of perfection?
How does rebellion come out of perfect love?
How does free will and choice come out of omniscience and omnipotence?
How does perfect love allow such suffering?

And yet, I choose to work towards the Light, though I stumble often.

We don't have all the answers to these questions but free will and choice is key to most of them.
Let's say in the future, it might be possible to program your children to love you and obey you.........would you want that?  Would it even be love if they had no choice?

Let's say we had a big brother scenario where everything you did was watched and intervened to stop you hurting yourself or others............think about that.  Would you just want the natural disasters dealt with, the car crashes avoided, or would you want intervention to stop you cheating on your wife?  This is a big deal in the Land of the Free!

For the most part, people have a conscience and know right from wrong, but they are free to choose what they do because God treats us like adults at a certain stage in our development.  We learn how to take risks.

For example:  We have known about tectonic plates and subduction zones since before WW2, but still people move to California.  We know we are due a Big One and that there is a magma lake under Yosemite, but people don't avoid the place like the plague, no loads of people ignore the logic and flock to the place, what can God do about people like that?  They know the risks, yet they do it anyway, how can that be His fault?  People need to do some grown-up thinking about freedom, choice and responsibility.

DaveP

 

[Spiritworks]

This causes a lot of my personal confusion:

If Perfection created everything, everything is perfect - ".....and God said it was good...."
Something that is perfect should not degenerate to imperfection.
A perfect being ( angel of light ? ) should be content to remain perfect.
Perfect free will would seemingly choose perfection, thus rebellion would not be perfection.
How does imperfect rebellion have the power to usurp perfection, given that Perfection is everything?
If man is created in the image and likeness of God, which is perfection, how is it that we are all so imperfect?

And yet, I know the rebellion of my own son, who has turned his back on me completely...................

 

[DaveP]

This causes a lot of my personal confusion:

If Perfection created everything, everything is perfect - ".....and God said it was good...."
Something that is perfect should not degenerate to imperfection.
A perfect being ( angel of light ? ) should be content to remain perfect.
Perfect free will would seemingly choose perfection, thus rebellion would not be perfection.
How does imperfect rebellion have the power to usurp perfection, given that Perfection is everything?
If man is created in the image and likeness of God, which is perfection, how is it that we are all so imperfect?

And yet, I know the rebellion of my own son, who has turned his back on me completely...................

First of all, I'm very sorry to hear that about your son, you sound like a thoughtful caring father to me, but maybe it gives you some insight into how God feels about a lot of his children.

I think you are confused about perfection and what should or should not be perfect.  This world cannot be completely perfect because it is material.  It has a radioactive core producing heat and volcanoes and earthquake movements, but the core also produces the magnetic screen to protect us from radiation, so not a perfect system but one that is workable for intelligent beings.  In order not to cause imperfection, we would have to remain as hunter gatherers and never spoil the earth in any way.  We would still face challenges because we would not be able  to fulfill our role as stewards of the Earth.  Forget about deflecting rogue asteroids or curing disease, we would never be able to accumulate enough scientific data , tools or know how to understand ecosystems or how the world works without some form of technology and creating that causes almost unavoidable imperfection somewhere.  I think that humanity has been working on the age old principle of "trial and error",  the world has been fairly forgiving until the last century or two, but its now reflecting the consequences of the choices we made and they need correction.

Why should perfect free will choose perfection?  Without knowledge of consequences, there is no point of reference to guide us.  We are not born like Gods, we have brains that start off empty and need to be filled, some go farther than others in this endeavor!

You might like to re-read the story of Adam and Eve, there is more there than meets the eye.  For a start, it deals with our race of homo sapians  with our bigger brains.  The story says Eve and women were punished by giving women a difficult childbirth, the punishment part is men shifting the blame, the real issue is thirst for knowledge and the evolutionary process of improved outcomes from bigger brains.  We are the only species to have difficult painful births.  There are also hints at interbreeding with Neanderthals (hunters of renown) who liked the daughters of men.  These events can be dated to about 200,000 to 50,000 years ago, so it is astonishing that the story has come down the generations verbally in such detail.

Ref: Y chromosome Adam, mitochondrial Eve circa 200,000 BC, Neanderthals around 50,000 BC

DaveP

 

[desol]

...this was to be removed. Everything one needs is in The Bible.

I am unsure about any references to the Nag Hammadi text so I chose to remove it.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

I will say one thing, Dave P mentioned our faith in the electron despite having never seen it.  Science always delivers definitive proof, sometimes hundreds of years after the fact.  A quick google shows detailed images of the electron taken in 2008. 

Religion on the other hand IME resorts to ever more ridiculous interpretations of ancient texts, cherry picking passages and jumping through hoops to apply it to our lives.  Again, the brain is a pattern matching machine.

Maybe there is a greater force, I can't rule that out.  And it certainly seems to be a fundamental human need to believe.

The world is amazing and horrifying all at once and I can see the appeal of handing over responsibility to a higher power, it just doesn't work for me.  I have also seen zero correlation between people's faith or religion and their good acts.  Truly vile things are done by daily people who believe and I can show you incredible people in my own life who are god free.

My observations won't move the needle one bit.  There is no rational conversation to be had when the act of believing is a leap into the irrational, the unprovable, and … faith.  I have my own opinions about how carefully crafted the language and tools of the church are in order to control people, again based on my upbringing.  It is a powerful system.

Last night I just happened across an article about Cardinal McCarrick's resignation and this doozy

"In its statement on McCarrick, the Vatican said: “Pope Francis accepted his resignation from the cardinalate and has ordered his suspension from the exercise of any public ministry, together with the obligation to remain in a house yet to be indicated to him, for a life of prayer and penance until the accusations made against him are examined in a regular canonical trial.”

Relentless, shameless horsesh*t.  Can you imagine if my son or daughter  murdered someone?  And I was to say the above, and that we would be having a family trial?  These people have operated for hundreds of years above the law, elevated by the closeness to God.

And yes, I am again mixing up the messenger and the message.  But my life experience has been so consistent in this regard that the message has been weakened beyond repair.

 

[desol]

I will say one thing, Dave P mentioned our faith in the electron despite having never seen it.  Science always delivers definitive proof, sometimes hundreds of years after the fact.  A quick google shows detailed images of the electron taken in 2008. 

Religion on the other hand IME resorts to ever more ridiculous interpretations of ancient texts, cherry picking passages and jumping through hoops to apply it to our lives.  Again, the brain is a pattern matching machine.

Maybe there is a greater force, I can't rule that out.  And it certainly seems to be a fundamental human need to believe.

The world is amazing and horrifying all at once and I can see the appeal of handing over responsibility to a higher power, it just doesn't work for me.  I have also seen zero correlation between people's faith or religion and their good acts.  Truly vile things are done by daily people who believe and I can show you incredible people in my own life who are god free.

My observations won't move the needle one bit.  There is no rational conversation to be had when the act of believing is a leap into the irrational, the unprovable, and … faith.  I have my own opinions about how carefully crafted the language and tools of the church are in order to control people, again based on my upbringing.  It is a powerful system.

Last night I just happened across an article about Cardinal McCarrick's resignation and this doozy

"In its statement on McCarrick, the Vatican said: “Pope Francis accepted his resignation from the cardinalate and has ordered his suspension from the exercise of any public ministry, together with the obligation to remain in a house yet to be indicated to him, for a life of prayer and penance until the accusations made against him are examined in a regular canonical trial.”

Relentless, shameless horsesh*t.  Can you imagine if my son or daughter  murdered someone?  And I was to say the above, and that we would be having a family trial?  These people have operated for hundreds of years above the law, elevated by the closeness to God.

And yes, I am again mixing up the messenger and the message.  But my life experience has been so consistent in this regard that the message has been weakened beyond repair.

I'm aware of all this as well, we all are...it's all over the news. However, I believe these people's experiences, over the evil that is eating up the world and confusing our minds. I won't let it stop me...

 

[Tubetec]

Well spoken Ruairi Boy,
Im with you 100% on that .

 

[ruairioflaherty]

I can't say I ever felt the need to believe. I like thought and, although I'm maybe more open than others to considering things not yet proven as a possibility, I wouldn't consider it a need per say. I think I understand this though.

I don't mean it to be judgmental or in any way diminishing when I say that it seems to be a human need, much like the need to be loved.  The world is chaotic and for many people a difficult place to be, the idea that there is some higher power pulling the levers in a way that we cannot understand can bring peace and a sort of stoic acceptance - God's will etc.  I see the value in this but it is not for me.  Talk to me about God's will and I'll show you a dead Syrian infant.

This is a debatable topic. I've practiced many things in my life to free myself of some negativity and /or things that create negative impacts in my or others lives and it was because of my faith that I practiced some of these things.

Sure and for every Scott practicing good things because of his faith there is someone somewhere hacking someone to death because of his.  Of course the sense is that this kind of savagery is remote and distant but we have our own kind of savagery here in the U.S. and in my home country of Ireland - relentless rascism, sexism, patriarchal control systems, shaming, homophobia etc etc all in God's name. 

I managed to adopt two kids as an atheist, imagine that.  I'm lucky, I had a good upbringing and that informs my life more than anything else.  I remember recoiling at a holy communion service 20 years back when the priest announced that without Jesus we could not be good people.  Yeah, I'll spare y'all the expletives.

Thanks for sharing! I'm not trying to contradict anything you say.... I feel you.... Just thinking more about things and sharing for more discussions....

Of course.  I will have to bow out of this conversation, I like you all too much to engage on this level.  I will not change a single opinion and just will end up upsetting people.

 

[desol]

Your personal opinion and activity Ruairi, is just as welcome as anyone else's. Everyone has the right to choose to believe however they wish. I personally don't feel offended by your viewpoint, as your viewpoint cannot change these people's unique experiences.

Experiences such as these, are different than opinions. The 'authenticity' and nature of these experiences, from all walks of life, continues to serve as the reasoning for me creating this thread.

 

[DaveP]

Of course.  I will have to bow out of this conversation, I like you all too much to engage on this level.  I will not change a single opinion and just will end up upsetting people.

I completely understand that your experience of the Church in Ireland (like that of Tubetec) has possibly damaged you beyond repair.  The Church over there had become an institution like any other, but they were corrupted by the power they had,  simple peoples unquestioning faith only extended their reign.

You can reject the whole shebang or look back at the original message, which is still available fortunately.  Lets put it another way,

One of your favourite artists comes to you in despair because a song they composed has been badly produced and ruined.  You find out that the  original tracks are still available and you are able to re-mix them properly and both he and you are delighted.

Now is the artist at fault or the original producer?  That is basically the issue here.

DaveP

 

[ruairioflaherty]

I completely understand that your experience of the Church in Ireland (like that of Tubetec) has possibly damaged you beyond repair.  The Church over there had become an institution like any other, but they were corrupted by the power they had,  simple peoples unquestioning faith only extended their reign.

You can reject the whole shebang or look back at the original message, which is still available fortunately.  Lets put it another way,

One of your favourite artists comes to you in despair because a song they composed has been badly produced and ruined.  You find out that the  original tracks are still available and you are able to re-mix them properly and both he and you are delighted.

Now is the artist at fault or the original producer?  That is basically the issue here.

DaveP

It's about so much more that that Dave but I don't think I can express it without offending people. 

 

[Mbira]

religion just doesn't make sense to me. What about the thousands of years of humans before a "savior" came? To me-and I'm sorry if this is offensive-religion is the ultimate in narcissism. Why should we humans be the only form of life (in the entire universe!) that requires some test to determine what will "happen to us"?

In my opinion religion is nothing more than an attempt for certain elites to wield power and make money, and a tool that many people think they need to help them live a moral life...oh, and also a way to vilify and condemn huge portions of the worlds population.

The sooner we can evolve beyond religion, the better imho.

 

[desol]

What about the thousands of years of humans before a "savior" came?

Well, this was a question that I had for long time that I had given up on trying to answer(I wasn't that concerned with trying to answer it, only examining these experiences), until you just brought it up. I'm definitely no expert in scripture, but I did find this:

"But on to your question: Catholic theology has traditionally taught that the righteous who came before Jesus were in the “limbo of the fathers,” a sort of spiritual waiting room where they remained until “in his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had 'gone' before him."

 

[ruairioflaherty]

"But on to your question: Catholic theology has traditionally taught that the righteous who came before Jesus were in the “limbo of the fathers,” a sort of spiritual waiting room where they remained until “in his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had 'gone' before him."

[quote author=ruairioflaherty]
Religion on the other hand IME resorts to ever more ridiculous interpretations of ancient texts, cherry picking passages and jumping through hoops to apply it to our lives.
[/quote]

 

[ruairioflaherty]

I've read other much more involved articles on how the concept of hell … let's say "evolved" over the centuries but I can't find anything that I could consider non partisan at the minute.  This one gives a brief history

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/05/160513-theology-hell-history-christianity/ 

These are not timeless concepts, or truths.  They are the invention of men with an agenda. The idea of hell was conceived by men in response to words written by men.  It works incredibly effectively to empower the church(s).

 

[ruairioflaherty]

It is pretty strange.... I keep saying this but, I really think there is too much blame or credit being placed on or given to man....

I'm sure leaches were a good intention too.....

I'm not sure I follow this but for non believers I think that is an understandable approach, we know man exists.

 

[desol]

(Sry, for some reason the quote mechanism wasn't working, so I copy/pasted)
 
Quote from: desol on Today at 03:59:01 PM

"But on to your question: Catholic theology has traditionally taught that the righteous who came before Jesus were in the “limbo of the fathers,” a sort of spiritual waiting room where they remained until “in his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had 'gone' before him."

Quote from: ruairioflaherty

    Religion on the other hand IME resorts to ever more ridiculous interpretations of ancient texts, cherry picking passages and jumping through hoops to apply it to our lives.



Ruairi. I'm not here to argue scripture.

There are enough people arguing already.

I am only here to point out these NDE experiences, that I have found to be interesting, heartfelt and for that matter truthful. People that have lost limbs, survived suicide attempts and other tragic events. A number of them highly trained to critically think; people with much greater training than myself and poor people as well. People from all walks in life. For men to argue the business of Gods, seems a bit foolhardy to begin with, to me.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

It was meant to imply that perhaps there is a learning process to everything.  Even trying to understand faith and God.

Like leaches were used in the medical field, and plenty of , what I think to be fantastical claims being made in modern times to explain things we really don't know yet.

We can and will though....

So there's a possibility or chance that man has been getting things wrong or not understanding some things to this day ....

Ok, I've got you now.

There's a name for this continuous human improvement you speak of, it's called science.  It has actually improved living standards and healed the sick, demonstrably and beyond refute.

Praying much like placebo has been much maligned and misunderstood, intention can be very powerful.