HiString's Poll: Separate forums?

[mnats]

[quote author="HiString"]...from the 270 odd members we have had only 46 bother to vote. Make your own conclusions from that.[/quote]

Could be the way the question has been framed:

"Should there be separate forums for separate projects?"

The discussion has raised many other ideas than separating them as "projects", unless you consider Newbies and Rants as fitting under the banner of projects.

[quote author="HiString"]Actually, considering the lack of response, this poll should be ignored as the approx., 17% of members who voted cannot be realistically considered as represntative of the total membership.[/quote]

What's the cutoff point? Voting is compulsory in Australia but in the US participation rates vary from year to year with spikes when there are Presidential elections. Some people don't care one way or another and skip the thread. Those who do care end up voting. No reason why it should be seen as invalid. You did a good thing by putting this to vote and I really appreciate reading the discussion!

Actually, the reason why I didn't vote initially, even though I did read the thread, was that I wasn't logged on and therefore didn't have the opportunity to vote (and didn't realize that was why the radio buttons didn't appear). But now I'm really straddling the fence.

Scenaria is getting done elsewhere for putting his LA-2 kit in The Lab (though many are rallying behind him). I would have missed those photos if he hadn't posted there and it would have been a shame. Even though I don't intend to buy one now, I didn't mind seeing them one bit.

Looks like the meta threads end up being quite a bit of work to keep updated - and am I right to think that anyone who has control over deleting posts and reorganizing links on a meta would have the power to delete and edit posts globally? Scary, considering the recent past.


PRR pointed out the fluid nature of catagories. What if you're part of the 5% whose favorite forum is Theory and it suddenly disappears or gets merged with Black Magic?

Still, to me it's easier to just open up The Lab and see all the activity going on, scan the headers and decide if I'm going to read about politics, food or electronics.

 

[Kev]

[quote author="HiString"]Guys, we can either sink or swim ......[/quote]

don't talk about it
just do it

this dreadnaught is rolling
(not a guitar stupid, but the biggest of the capital battleships)
keep up and stay in control
and remember to be be kind to each other.

 

[HiString]

mnats,

Thanks for your comments.

The poll title was done by Admin, and as I had asked for his assistance in getting the poll up I didn't feel it was right to "criticise" the way the title could be interpreted.

If you read the opening post it should be clear that I offered a couple of options which were by no means meant to be the only options, just a guide to the kind of possibilities open to us. I think we have to stop thinking about what we as individuals like and start thinking about the future growth and functionality of the site...........

 

[HiString]

Kev,

If I had the "authority" (eeeewww I don't like that word here) I would, in conjuction with yourself and a few others "DO IT"..................but as it stands, I don't.

BTW, thanks for chiming in here.......... :guinness: :guinness: :thumb:

 

[kaur]

Must add:
I was searching this (kind of) place for years.
When I found you ,maybe in the beginning I was into preamps,compressors,eqs,etc.
But now I dont care.
I like different ideas,findings,solutions.
I like learning everyday.
Me thinks that soul of this place lives in one big forum.
There must be ways to organize growth,but bigger question is how organize information.Seems that in last place we had somethig for that.
Group DIY.
Kev started this.Thank you.
I understand this is not best time for it,
but maybe word or two...
I love this place.

Sorry my nonexsisting english.

Kaur.

 

[CJ]

Welcome Kaur!
Yo english be betta than mine, bro!

cj

Oh yeah, just a shout out to Cypress Hill fo bringin down the house last night at the Fillmore Auditorium.

And another shout out to my homies in the LBZ!

Hey lets not forget Compton,CA!

 

[Learner]

Oh and you missed um..........westside muthaPh&*k#err? :grin:


Biaaaaaatch..........????????

 

[woodensoul]

First off: thanks to the very nice people who host this web space and all of you Guru/Administrator/Moderators here!

HiString- please don't be upset too much about the lack of voter turn out: it is hard to get the word out. ( I am a part-time lurker and always desire more time to hang out in the forums and for DIY but the day gig takes up SOO much time -ARRGH )

I like browsing through each days posts as well but it would be great to have quick access to threads with the answers each of us need.
The meta thread seems like a great thing as long as the thread keeper does not mind the extra work involved in organization...

Kev certainly has done a lot of that at GROUP DIY (thanks KEV for turning me onto DIY)

:green:

cheers Lab!
-Steve

 

[PRR]

> I didn't see the need for quite so many divisions.

I'm used to a 17-23 section structure, and many people really DO read read through several sections.

That assumes the whole forum topic is related. Over at RO they covered a much larger range of topics, many of which were of no apparent interest to the people now here. But I think the "DIY" field is both broad enough to be divided, and narrow enough that people will browse most sections.

Remember the total number of posts is roughly constant no matter how many sections. But sections do make it easier to find what you want, or skip what you are sure you don't want. (At the extremes: 1 section or 100 sections, post volume seems to decline; 4 to 20 seems like an optimum range, depending on the breadth of the topic and the minds of the participants.)

For example: I see a Pasta Recipe and a java-graphics thread today. I like the threads but feel they could be in an "Off-Topic" section, not clutter-up the Hardcore Tech Talk. That's not to "hide" them: in fact in forums with a Village Inn section, many days I go right to that section because that's where all the fun stuff is. But other days I just need a hit of tech-talk, not pasta. Sections make it easier.

> "How To" section which could cover how to solder, how to make PCB's, how to....

I think that is what I meant by "solder"; I like your title.

> What if you're part of the 5% whose favorite forum is Theory and it suddenly disappears or gets merged with Black Magic?

It is a hard decision that needs wise consideration. I had an "Engineering" section burbling along at 3% of post-traffic. But remember that posts are not everything. As kaur points out, many people mostly lurk. (In another forum, we have 5,000 active members but just 50 people post 98% of the messages that the 4,950 lurkers come to read.) In that Engineering section, while only a few people felt qualified to post, I always suspected that many many lurkers were reading and enjoying those few posts. Also that section wouldn't merge well with any of the others. And from time to time, a thread in Engineering would flare-up, rise to 14% of total forum traffic, bring lurkers out of hiding, etc. Those are "good reasons" to keep the section. So I leave it alone.

> If there is going to be a reorganising of The Lab, it should be worked out and implemented sooner rather than later, when people have become too entrenched

I have not seen the back-end of this forum's engine. On an older forum-server, adding/deleting sections was a minor annoyance. The real issue, for both staff and members, was -moving- large numbers of messages from one section to another to fit a new section scheme. We developed scripts to help in that; this server may be easier or worse. I suspect it has to be easier to merge two slow section than to split one big section: merging can be done mindlessly and splitting requires reading the top of every thread and deciding which split to put it in. So for mechanical reasons, "too many" sections may be the way to start the experiment.

Remember that my opinions are strongly colored by years on a very old forum structure and the unique community that grew up in it. Many of our old habits may be antiquated in today's cyber-world. Still, people are people. So I'm throwing out my tidbits of experience for group consideration. Only the group can decide what is really best for "us".

 

[HiString]

PRR,

Many thanks.......I agree totally.

While I am disappointed with the lack of participation in this poll, I do thanks those who have voted regardless of what your vote was.

What does concern me is that if we follow the poll results and leave things as they are, then that decision will be based on only approx., 14% of the total membership..........not really a democratic decision.

Maybe it would be wiser to have a trial period with the various sections and at the end of a set time, review how the site as a whole is running and also ask for members comments, at least this way, people will have a chance to "experience" the alternative to what we currently have and then be in a position to make an informed judgement.

 

[mnats]

I wonder how many people read the entire discussion and couldn't make up their mind? That's what ended up happening to me.

I actually came back to vote but found the polling booth closed. PRR's argument won me over. But I'm still in the minority.

It's nice to see a democratic process here but perhaps what we really need is a benevolent and wise dictator.

 

[gyraf]

[quote author="mnats"]I wonder how many people read the entire discussion and couldn't make up their mind? That's what ended up happening to me.
I actually came back to vote but found the polling booth closed. PRR's
argument won me over. But I'm still in the minority.[/quote]

:razz: This is EXACTLY what happend to me also..!

Jakob E.

 

[thermionic]

I'd like to second PRR's suggestion for an O.T forum. The quality / amusement factor of OT threads has always been good at TT, and I personally feel that an OT forum would improve the quality / diversity of "OT" threads and give people a chance to discuss related issues without worrying about clogging the technical discussion area.

IMHO people are likely to be building LA2A / 1176 etc for many years to come, I can only envisage more and more people catching the diy bug just for these alone. In light of this I do suspect that dedicated "mini-forums" for the La2a / 1176 could be a good move.

I can fully understand people's concerns with fragmenting site content, but I can't help suspecting separate forums for the really popular projects could be a good means of keeping all the info for one project easily at hand, and prevent the same Qs from cropping up. Obviously the META idea works as well, I'm sure the forum will be cool whatever policy is implemented.

I don't share the concern that some members will just visit the main forum and ignore the others, from viewing other forums this does not seem to be the case.

Either way, keep up the good work guys :guinness:

Justin

 

[HiString]

This is one of the reasons I would like to see a trial run for a designated period............let people actually experience a multi-forum system then at least any comments and suggestions will be based on that experience.

I think one fact that has been overlooked is that most (other) forums attempt to cover a much broader core subject, for example, recording forums have to deal with Gear, Techniques, PC recording, Various software systems, DIY, Classified, etc, etc. Here we are dealing with just one core issue.....DIY, nothing more and nothing less, consequently, a lot of the "negative" aspects other forums face may not necesarily apply here.

 

[Learner]

Just want to say I've missed the vote because I couldn't make up my mind, however I think it would be very useful to have a forum dedicated to

#Amps ( transistors, tubes and IC op amp)
#Power supply(rectifying mains AC, regulators, power transformers, voltage multiplier)
#Audio signal processing(Dynamics, EQs, FX)
#Switches(mechanical, digital)

That way, I think it would feel a bit more organised and better focused in each area without interrupting other threads in the forum that might be taking off at the time.

any thoughts?

:guinness:

 

[PRR]

Just to clear some terminology: in my mind, a "forum" is Recording.Org or Forums.Prodigy-Pro.Com or or www.pchardwareforum.com/ or go.compuserve.com/PChardware: one site with one Wizop (Top Administrator). A Forum is usually divided into "sections". At RO, "TechTalk" was a Section. PC Hardware forums tend to have sections like Motherboards, CPUs RAM, hard drives, Network, etc. Here we now have Lab and Market sections.

Another feature of Sections is that the Admin can flag a person to be Moderator of a Section. So for example, someone could be Section Leader of the LA2 section and be able to edit and lock the Meta thread and clean out crap, without necessarily having such power in other sections where they may abuse the power (or just add to the "too many cooks" problem). (Though in my experience, mostly the Admin should appoint wise sane Moderators and give them broad power to mop-up in any section.)

If you look at RO or http://www.pchardwareforum.com/, there is a middle layer of subdivisions. Sections Motherboards, CPUs RAM in one box. I'm not sure what they call those. I suspect we aren't big enough to need that.

I proposed a section-list; I see Learner has another plan and I like it and his reasoning too. I would add the Market and as Justin says: an off-topic section to avoid "clogging the technical discussion area".

> most (other) forums attempt to cover a much broader core subject.... Here we are dealing with just one core issue.....DIY
> ............let people actually experience a multi-forum system

I would say "multi-Section Forum", and yes, I think it would be good to try.

In fact my very first thought when I got here was "Just ONE section???" I didn't say it because it was the first day and it takes time and thought to arrange the furniture. But it was on my mind to suggest it when things settle down.

> came back to vote but found the polling booth closed.

I hope nobody takes that poll as a valid mandate. Many people didn't know we were here until the poll closed. More important issues (like stupid pictures of our former host, and how commercial we should be) occupied our time. Also the proposal as-worded may not be what we really want. The best Section-Plan might not be project-oriented. That's why we are talking about it.

> came back to vote but found the polling booth closed.

Another point. In my opinion, the forum leader should listen to input, but a Forum should not be a Direct Democracy. One big reason is that most members never vote, or even speak-up. So the "vote" reflects only the most vocal and opinionated members, the loudest squeaker gets the grease. Another aspect is that most members have never thought about the broad picture and the total community. So the Forum Leader should listen to all input, and then do what s/he thinks is best. Remember that Members always have total veto power: if the Leader makes a mess of things, we will just stop coming. As last week proved, that is not just political theory. So a truly community-loving Leader will always do what is best for the Members, as best as s/he knows how.

 

[Ethan]

It looks like we're still not sure what might be the best way to separate forums. I personally like the meta-thread idea and the off-topic section. I will create an off topic area and start moving off-topic threads to that section.

I think the meta threads might be promising, and I just may designate one "resource area" to find all meta-threads if you guys think that may help with organization...however, as it is now, keeping the thread titles starting with "Meta..." makes it easy for one to just use the search function to pull up all meta threads.

My apprehension about creating 5-10 different sections is the division in communication. Yes there will be people that visit all forums regularly, but there will also be some that do not, and may miss out on good participation--is that a risk worth taking for the sake of organization?

 

[CJ]

Yeah, why not just pack everything into this place until the load becomes too heavy.
Look at the poll, 70 percent to...

 

[Scenaria]

just look at R.O.


they have over a dozen different forums, 18+ thousand reg users and only a handful are active...

point is this place has what 300+ members? lets just see how things grow... the load will dictate the need for things to be split...

 

[HiString]

I'm sorry but you guys really seem to be missing the point (well at least the reason I personally felt this issue needed to be addressed).

CJ........frankly, I regret asking Admin to post the poll. FFS only about 20% bothered to vote and the "NO" component is about 14% of total membership. With those results it is useless which is why the later suggestion of trialing a multi sub-forum system.

With all due respect, anyone who at this stage is worried about the number of hits any one section may or may not be receiving is starting to sound like the person that caused this migration. Provided there are not too many sub-forums this should not need to be a consideration.

People who have some knowledge of the various gear and/or who have some tech knowledge will find their way easier than the DIY newbies and this is what this whole proposal is about..........THE NEWBIES who don't yet know that an SSL needs VCA or even what a VCA is, the newbie who is advised to make a Green pre as a first project who then has to try and find any or all information in these forums about the Green...........It is about making things easier for those of us who are or have been technically challenged. It is about sharing knowledge and helping people but the people that probably need the help the most are newbies.

Personally, I remember all to well what TT was like to someone with little understanding of electronics and even less understanding of the more vintage and esoteric gear that gets discussed. TT was absolutely confusing and scary, basically it was a "**** fight", a nice one but a "**** fight" none the less..........partly because there was just too much information about too many things all in one place. We have an opportunity to correct this.

Have a look at CNCzone http://www.cnczone.com/forums/index.php?s=&menu=2 ..............this is a big forum with a great DIY community but it works so well because of the way it has been sub divided and it retains a great sense of community. My experiences there only add to my conviction that creating sub-forums here is the correct and righteous thing to do.