How to sync Tascam 38 or 48 tape machine to DAW

[bluezplaya]

I'm considering buying a Tascam 38 8-track tape machine to track on, and then dump to Cubase for editing, mixing, etc. I am completely clueless on how to do this and was hoping for some suggestions. I know 8 tracks is not a lot, but I am going to record at home and space is a factor (as well as cost factor). So I would need to 1. use a click to cut a scratch vocal and gtr/piano, and then 2. record the drum tracks to that, and then from there 3. tracking the other instruments and transfering to DAW. I would like to think that my overall track count would be 16 and under, after all overdubs are done. I've googled and read about SMPTE but have no clue on the details of using it, configuring it, etc.

I'm really not looking for an analog vs. digital argument, "go buy a Studer" argument, none of that. Just trying to ask for suggestions from folks who may use this method for tracking to tape on a limited budget, limited channels, etc.

FYI, I'm using a Lynx Aurora 16 as converter.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The play for using timecode, is to print SMPTE timecode to one of the tape tracks, usually 1 or 8 so it doesn't corrupt the other audio tracks.

Then whenever you play that tape back, a SMPTE reader can Identify where you are wrt that timecode.

This has also been used for syncing video to audio machines. Just print smpte TC to audio tracks on both machines while recording, of course this requires a sophisticated speed control for the audio machine to lock it to the video machine for production. 

You can also sync up Midi program changes or other such midi instructions to SMPTE time events to automate other aspects of mixdown (presets on reverbs, etc).

I guess with SMPTE on one track of the analog machine you could sync up other virtual or digital audio tracks along with it.

The 38 is a relatively small format tape machine, so I wouldn't expect great audio performance, but if you are looking for characteristic tape distortion, it could provide that.

I won't even ask you why.  8)

JR

 

[bluezplaya]

The 38 is a relatively small format tape machine, so I wouldn't expect great audio performance, but if you are looking for characteristic tape distortion, it could provide that.

I won't even ask you why.  8)

JR

Well, I understand that the 38 was a "prosumer" tape deck, and of course at 8 channels, it's limiting. However, I have read some threads of some happy Tascam 38 owners who say it does a good job. And I have also found some info on modding it for a better sonic quality.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The 38 is a relatively small format tape machine, so I wouldn't expect great audio performance, but if you are looking for characteristic tape distortion, it could provide that.

I won't even ask you why.  8)

JR

Well, I understand that the 38 was a "prosumer" tape deck, and of course at 8 channels, it's limiting. However, I have read some threads of some happy Tascam 38 owners who say it does a good job. And I have also found some info on modding it for a better sonic quality.

One critical limitation is tape/track width which defines how much magnetic media is under each head. The heads and tracks get even narrower because of shielding and guard bands required to allow punch in or overdubbing only one track at a time without erasing the adjacent tracks. Perhaps you can dial up the tape speed several X to push more tape past the heads, but other than that these are hard mechanical constraints that can't be easily tweaked. 

It doesn't matter what I think...  Have fun... 

JR

 

[bruno2000]

Are you talking about the Tascam DA-38?  That's a digital machine.
Best,
Bruno2000

 

[bluezplaya]

Tascam 38, analog

 

[helterbelter]

In the past I owned a tascam 48 and a tascam 58, both great sounding machines. Better sound than the Otari that I had before I got the Tascams.

Syncing a tapedeck to a daw is possible, but pretty daunting. Syncing the DAW to a tapemachine is much easier (like John described in more detail). I have a MidiMan syncman Plus leftover in case you're looking for a SMPTE to MidiTime Code converter.
(SMPTE to MTC is the best choice for synching. There are also FSK and SPP synchronisers, but these are less accurate.)

Currently, I have a Fostex E-8 that syncs to my Daw. I use a smpte generator plugin, that sends the SMPTE code to a fostex 4030 tapesynchroniser set-up as mastercode-only, and the 4030 controls the speed of the E8. (The E8 is the slave in this case)
This is also possible with a Tascam 38, but you'll need a special interface between the Fostex 4030 synchroniser and the Tascam (pretty hard to find these days).

 

[Andy Peters]

I'm considering buying a Tascam 38 8-track tape machine to track on, and then dump to Cubase for editing, mixing, etc. I am completely clueless on how to do this and was hoping for some suggestions. I know 8 tracks is not a lot, but I am going to record at home and space is a factor (as well as cost factor). So I would need to 1. use a click to cut a scratch vocal and gtr/piano, and then 2. record the drum tracks to that, and then from there 3. tracking the other instruments and transfering to DAW. I would like to think that my overall track count would be 16 and under, after all overdubs are done. I've googled and read about SMPTE but have no clue on the details of using it, configuring it, etc.

I'm really not looking for an analog vs. digital argument, "go buy a Studer" argument, none of that. Just trying to ask for suggestions from folks who may use this method for tracking to tape on a limited budget, limited channels, etc.

FYI, I'm using a Lynx Aurora 16 as converter.

Thanks for any advice.

I did plenty of stuff on a Tascam 38, and a friend recently digitized some of the tracks. I thought it all sounded pretty good back then, but it's a bit disappointing now. So I guess you're looking for analog "magic," and honestly, it's not really all that magical.

Anyways, I don't think the 38 could chase and sync to time code. But you can print time code onto one of the tracks, and your DAW may chase it. I know Logic will do that.

-a

 

[pucho812]

your daw should have a smpte generator and reader or you need a sympte to midi time code box as I have yet to run into a daw that does not read midi time code.


The JL cooper pps2 can generate smpte code and read smpte code.  It can also take the smpte code you generate and output it as midi time code It's around 300 dollars last I checked. has built in control software that is osx friendly and I forget which windows version.

http://www.jlcooper.com/_php/product.php?prod=pps2

Anyway what you will need to do is record smpte onto a track of the analog deck. This is usually done on the end tracks 1 or 8 or 16 or 24. The reason is they are most likely the ones that could be fucked up first if any thing out of the ordinary happens while running tape. Same reason people put kick on track one.

So record smpte to track 8.

Your now can record audio on the rest of the tracks which would give you 7. However because there is a potential for smpte bleed onto the nearest tracks your probably going to skip using  track 7. So in reality you would best  be using a max of 6 and then transferring over.

When you transfer the tracks have the jlcooper read the incoming smpte  off the track 8 which will then convert it to midi time code which then a daw can read and sync too.

I can't think of any other way if you playing on recording and then over dubbing with all the tracks going to tape first unless you plan on doing something really expensive like clasp which at that point would not be worth the $$ required. The jl cooper can give you what you want to do at a reasonable price and a cost of spending time when you transfer

 

[bluezplaya]

Actually, I just purchased a Tascam 48, not a 38. And on the back panel there is a 38 pin "accessory" plug. Is that for locking up with a DAW?

 

[MagnetoSound]

Anyway what you will need to do is record smpte onto a track of the analog deck. This is usually done on the end tracks 1 or 8 or 16 or 24. The reason is they are most likely the ones that could be f**ked up first if any thing out of the ordinary happens while running tape. Same reason people put kick on track one.

That's not the reason. The reason is that SMPTE has a tendency to bleed onto adjacent tracks (as you mention). By placing the timecode onto an edge track you limit the risk of bleed to only one track. Track 23 (or whatever is the next-door track) can be used for percussion parts, or other stuff that can be easily gated and the bleed can be hidden.

To mitigate the timecode bleed, you record SMPTE at the lowest acceptable level you can, and boost the level (if necessary) into the sync box.

(If the risk of tape damage were the issue, then by your own logic you would not put kick onto track one, as it is far too crucial a part to risk losing fidelity. Back in the day we always used track one for HH, as it was deemed the least important kit mic (and was often re-used anyway as the tracks were filled  ).

 

[pucho812]

Actually, I just purchased a Tascam 48, not a 38. And on the back panel there is a 38 pin "accessory" plug. Is that for locking up with a DAW?

without looking at the manual I would guess that it is not for that.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Actually, I just purchased a Tascam 48, not a 38. And on the back panel there is a 38 pin "accessory" plug. Is that for locking up with a DAW?

I think DAW were in another different price zone back when those machines were popular.  The mutli-pin may be for machine sync to auto-locator et al... So high tech for them was sync to SMPTE timecode for mixing audio for video, then re-assembling. DAWs were mostly high price tag stuff tascam buyers dreamed about.

Note; machine synchronization was not cheap back in the day... I was involved with a sync box at peavey that sync'd tape machines to SMPTE and that was considered cheap at around $1k

JR

 

[helterbelter]

Actually, I just purchased a Tascam 48, not a 38. And on the back panel there is a 38 pin "accessory" plug. Is that for locking up with a DAW?

EDAC/Elco 38 pin, yes, it's for connecting it to a SMPTE synchroniser. The synchroniser can control the speed of the reelmotors and pinchroller of the 48, and synchronise 2 tapedecks, or a combi of VTR and audiorecorders. If you connect the synchroniser to a DAW that sends out SMPTE, you can lock the 48 to the DAW.

But, beware, you must find a suitable synchroniser for it, and they are rare. I had a Fostex 4030 (as said before), with a TASCAM adapter interface. BTX also made a system that was compatible with the 48/58 machines.

But best would be to sync the DAW to the 48, not the other way. No hassle of, and or,  obsolete techy stuff.

 

[Spiritworks]

Does anyone have experience using a MOTU Digital Timepiece for this application?

 

[helterbelter]

I have been looking to the functions of the timepiece, but as far as I could see, the timepiece is only capable to sync to a tapedeck (and convert the smpte to mtc), but isn't able to control the speed of a tapedeck.

 

[pucho812]

I have been looking to the functions of the timepiece, but as far as I could see, the timepiece is only capable to sync to a tapedeck (and convert the smpte to mtc), but isn't able to control the speed of a tapedeck.

well that's not so bad, if you take up a track with smpte, can then lock the daw to the tape deck with the deck as master

 

[helterbelter]

No, you're absolutely right, it's good, but the topic title says how to sync a tapemachine to a daw, not a daw to the tapemachine. Hence my response.

But, Pucho's right.
Syncing the daw to a recorder is a much easier to achieve method anyway, and, unless you already have the tools to do it the other way, you'd better stick with syncing the daw to a recorder. You only need a SMPTE to MTC converter, and there are pleny of brands that produced stuff to do that. The Motu Timepiece is one of them (the older timepiece will be fine as well), Midiman syncman is another, and there are other types as well.

Funny thing to mention, I once bought a Midiman syncman, it was expensive as hell. Nowadays, these pieces cost almost nothing...

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/MIDIMAN-SYNCMAN-PRO-rack-19-VINTAGE-/321187140727?pt=US_Computer_Recording_Interfaces&hash=item4ac83ed477

or MTP :
http://www.ebay.nl/itm/MOTU-1990-Midi-Timepiece-MINT-RARE-COLLECTOR-with-Manual-Free-Shipping-/141032156470?pt=US_Computer_Recording_Interfaces&hash=item20d62bed36

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/MOTU-MTP-AV-Midi-Timepiece-Recording-Interface-8x8-Non-USB-Model-/290961024714?pt=US_Computer_Recording_Interfaces&hash=item43bea0e6ca

Keep in mind, that if you don't have a midi interface to your computer, you have a limited choice for smpte>mtc converters

 

[JohnRoberts]

For the record SMPTE time code alone was all that was needed to sync systems together. Perhaps you need the additional conversion to midi clock to interface with modern DAW? Back in the 90s when I last messed with this midi time clock was not that popular but using SMPTE to sync video to multi-track tape (now video to DAW I guess) was popular. Midi program changes were used with SMPTE time cues to change effects or trigger events.

JR

 

[bluezplaya]

I found a MOTU Time Piece at a local music store that I could get for dirt cheap. My Lynx Aurora has Midi i/o, so I could basically plug my tape deck up to the Motu via a cable using the 38 pin cable, then plug the Aurora to the Motu via Midi cable?