I want to make a reliable clone of a C800G microphone

[LuckyNat]

I thought it was well known that the K67 clone Sony used in the C800 was the exact same as that used in the C48 ? But different to C800G ... or could be the other way around.

I've seen this posted elsewhere, quoting a K67 guru/repair guy who's name I can't remember, probably the German guy everyone goes to for K67 repairs and his own clones.

 

[kingkorg]

TBH, for the price of the Stam audio SA800 I will never start DIY clone of the C800G. I don't say it's the 100% exact clone but most of the details are solved there.

I wouldn't agree. At least two key features missing in sa800. But i'm not helping them here publically with free R&D. It can be fixed tho.

 

[kingkorg]

I thought it was well known that the K67 clone Sony used in the C800 was the exact same as that used in the C48 ? But different to C800G ... or could be the other way around.

I've seen this posted elsewhere, quoting a K67 guru/repair guy who's name I can't remember, probably the German guy everyone goes to for K67 repairs and his own clones.

Not sure what you meant here, but the capsule in C800g is not a "clone" of k67. Holes are way different. If that's what the guru stated he's very wrong. Easy to spot on close-up images.

 

[k brown]

OP seems to have lost interest - nothing since Jan. 1

 

[Migs 31]

“OP seems to have lost interest - nothing since Jan. 1”

Are you sure he/she/it was really “interested”?
Maybe just getting us talking on the subject?
In fact are you sure it was eve a “human”?!?

M

 

[Moby]

I wouldn't agree. At least two key features missing in sa800. But i'm not helping them here publically with free R&D. It can be fixed tho.

It can be fixed. That's the point.

 

[LuckyNat]

Not sure what you meant here, but the capsule in C800g is not a "clone" of k67. Holes are way different. If that's what the guru stated he's very wrong. Easy to spot on close-up images.

We can call it a copy or "version" then..

Whether Sony created a version of the K67 or whether they cloned it wasn't the point ... the point was that the same capsule is reportedly found in both the C48 and C800G alike.

For the non-G, you could apparently order the C37 capsule for the C800 and vice versa.

Anyway, the info is in the Klaus Heyne section of ProSoundWeb : Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab

Ok ... whilst composing this post, I google searched the forum and found these references:

https://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=2035.0
https://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,30701.0/wap2.html
And this post on Gearspace referencing A. Grosser as imparting the info:

https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=6312261&postcount=17
Then take a look at this post which suggests the Sony capsule is indeed a very good clone, not just version :

https://gearspace.com/board/geekzone/782729-exploring-sony-c800g-capsule-neumann-k67-element.html

While it was on the bench, the tech had to remove the old diaphragm and examine the backplate etc....
To quote him (the capsule tech), the capsule is a Neumann K67 clone. One of the best ones he's seen as far as K67 clones go. The metal work is excellent and the hole patterns, details etc are spot on. He reskinned the bad side of the capsule with the same mylar that he normally uses to skin K67 backplates; it was a perfect fit and he tensioned it appropriately. Better yet, the sides were a perfect match. He and the customer were both very happy with the end results and me of course I was very happy to learn a bit of insight regarding one of my favorite mics and how its made.
The customer upon getting the capsule installed in his microphone was ecstatic because it was like his C800G was brand new again, there are no differences between the sides whatsoever.

So in conclusion to this episode of myth busters. The C800G does NOT use some mystery capsule (neither does the C48 since the capsules are the same), it is simply in fact an exceptionally well made Asian clone of the Neumann K67, not only in design but even in tuning. Who was responsible for the C800G capsule is anybodies guess, I certainly have my suspicions, however I won't disclose my conspiracy theory

This is a huge finding in my own opinion, mainly because it lets me know I have not been chasing a white whale in my pursuits to build a better C800G. It also is huge for owners of aging C800Gs and C48s.
Your C800G/C48 capsules can be rebuilt/reskinned and they can be replaced if need be with a Neumann K67 element or a legitimate clone thereof

These threads are all quite old now - hence why I assumed this was common knowledge.

EDIT:

Then there is this quote from Klaus Heynes on Gearspace which agrees with your own assessment of the Sony capsule vs K67:

https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=7257666&postcount=39

However: the dual-backplate Braunmühl-Weber-design which Sony copied from Neumann in its C48, and later in the C800G, is not interchangeable with a Neumann capsule in output, timbre and frequency response. There are many small and not so small differences between the two capsules. I would therefore be reluctant to call the Sony capsule a "K67". That designation should be reserved exclusively for Neumann product.
KH

 

[kingkorg]

We can call it a copy or "version" then..

Whether Sony created a version of the K67 or whether they cloned it wasn't the point ... the point was that the same capsule is reportedly found in both the C48 and C800G alike.

For the non-G, you could apparently order the C37 capsule for the C800 and vice versa.

Anyway, the info is in the Klaus Heyne section of ProSoundWeb : Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab

Ok ... whilst composing this post, I google searched the forum and found these references:

https://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=2035.0
https://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,30701.0/wap2.html
And this post on Gearspace referencing A. Grosser as imparting the info:

https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=6312261&postcount=17
Then take a look at this post which suggests the Sony capsule is indeed a very good clone, not just version :

https://gearspace.com/board/geekzone/782729-exploring-sony-c800g-capsule-neumann-k67-element.html


These threads are all quite old now - hence why I assumed this was common knowledge.

EDIT:

Then there is this quote from Klaus Heynes on Gearspace which agrees with your own assessment of the Sony capsule vs K67:

https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=7257666&postcount=39

Ok, i guess i didn't understand your previous post. It seems we agree.
I don't blame the guy claiming c800g capsule is a good clone of Neumann's original, at the time there weren't many capsule options, so i guess it could seem at the time it was closer than it really is.

Technology, and resources available just 10 years ago is far from what we have today available to average DIYer. Currently we are discussing micron level tolerances, and being really picky about differences.

 

[soliloqueen]

making one of these is on my bucket list, just need to find a good non-working sample

 

[stamaudio]

I wouldn't agree. At least two key features missing in sa800. But i'm not helping them here publically with free R&D. It can be fixed tho.

Interesting.... if it's the long tubes I have piles of them.. , if it's the tube power supply I also build them. There is a jumper on the PS so you can switch between both SS and Tube., surprisingly it affects the "tone" of the mic.

If it's not that I am not sure what could be, the output transformer sounds the same as the Sowter we use (I tested the Sowter on a Sony they are quite identical)

 

[kingkorg]

Interesting.... if it's the long tubes I have piles of them.. , if it's the tube power supply I also build them. There is a jumper on the PS so you can switch between both SS and Tube., surprisingly it affects the "tone" of the mic.

If it's not that I am not sure what could be, the output transformer sounds the same as the Sowter we use (I tested the Sowter on a Sony they are quite identical)

Since we talk about commercial product i can offer my services if we agree on the terms. I will be back to Norway in couple of months where i have all the testing equipment and i could measure the capsule as well. It would be great to see if the capsule's response is matching Sony's, or if it's Neumann based. If you are willing to provide a mic for testing, which would of course be returned. In case are interested you can let me know.

Edit: Quote from Stam site *Let’s start with the capsule. Since the capsule represents 90% of the microphone’s tone, naturally we had to start with the best replica capsule in the world. The Custom US made K67 capsule is based on a 1960’s vintage set of original back plates, which offer a much greater vintage tone than alternative offerings.*

I guess it is based on Neumann's after all, so free piece of advice would be to get accurate replica of Sony's capsule which is different. I agree the capsule is at least 90% of the sound, so it would have to be based on the correct one. Also the site says Lundahl transformer.

 

[stamaudio]

I have Sony capsules and they are just K-67 based copies. Not identical but pretty close. With a little (secret) trick I can get the same to the nearly an identical frequency response.

Both the SA-800G I have as a reference and my 2 Sony C-800G sound the same to my ears and are good enough so that I can send them to clients who have originals and use them a stereo pairs.

I will upload some sweeps and clips to the website soon with both.

With the current capsule and tube power supply there is nothing I can further do to get them to sound closer.

Thank you for your input though. Always useful.

 

[kingkorg]

With the current capsule and tube power supply there is nothing I can further do to get them to sound closer.

The devil's in the details, you haven't looked close enough. I'm surprised though you are not interested in improving your product. Some bold claims in that post i won't get into as the thread would go to a very bad place. Without even testing your product i can claim RESPONSIBLY your mic can NOT be used with original as a stereo pair.

Also it would be nice if you published unsmoothed responses.

 

[stamaudio]

The devil's in the details, you haven't looked close enough. I'm surprised though you are not interested in improving your product. Some bold claims in that post i won't get into as the thread would go to a very bad place. Without even testing your product i can claim RESPONSIBLY your mic can NOT be used with original as a stereo pair.

Also it would be nice if you published unsmoothed responses.

I am always interest in improving products. I am just not interested in improving this one when the goal has been achieved where I am happy with the sonic performance of the microphone to the point I can't tell them apart in a blind test. I am quite obsessive and peculiar with testing and have spent almost 10 years working on getting mics right, it's a constant process. Once I am happy that's it.

I happily use them in stereo pairs and so do my clients. If you think it can't be used as stereo pairs then that's your legitimate opinion. I differ. Maybe it would be nice to get a video going

 

[kingkorg]

I am always interest in improving products. I am just not interested in improving this one when the goal has been achieved where I am happy with the sonic performance of the microphone to the point I can't tell them apart in a blind test. I am quite obsessive and peculiar with testing and have spent almost 10 years working on getting mics right, it's a constant process. Once I am happy that's it.

I happily use them in stereo pairs and so do my clients. If you think it can't be used as stereo pairs then that's your legitimate opinion. I differ. Maybe it would be nice to get a video going

1. I have no idea what you are doing on a DIY forum besides fishing for free tips on flaws of your own product. Or doing damage control for being guilty of lousy plagiarism.

2. World doesn't need another Uli Behringer. As far as i can tell you have ripped off other companies intellectual property, and even that poorly. So you haven't really built anything. You seem to share Uli's personal traits getting ego get the best of you.

3. No one is really interested in your own opinion of your own product.

4. Sony's original capsule is available for sale so i don't see why you wouldn't invest in one for reverse engineering, also i'm pretty sure Heisermann can build one that is accurate without you having to "tweak" it.

5. K67 based on Neumann CAN NOT be "tweaked" to match Sony's. Unless you found a way to break laws of physics.

6. Even though it might not seem to you, i'm doing my best not to let you commit professional suicide. I know how this could come off, but i am probably the last person here you want to argue on this, and i'm not really sure you are aware who i am. There are very specific reasons why i am in a position to RESPONSIBLY CLAIM your product is off. And i am not playing the typical "how dare you, do you know who i am" game, to a wise person this should be enough.

If i wanted to, i could exploit your return policy for this mic and put a nail in a coffin, but again i have reasons why i won't do that. Yet, you could have just asked in the inbox what the issues with your mic are, and that wouldn't have costed you much, if anything. You would have even gained an advantage against your rip-off competitor companies.

 

[stamaudio]

1. I have no idea what you are doing on a DIY forum besides fishing for free tips on flaws of your own product. Or doing damage control for being guilty of lousy plagiarism.

2. World doesn't need another Uli Behringer. As far as i can tell you have ripped off other companies intellectual property, and even that poorly. So you haven't really built anything. You seem to share Uli's personal traits getting ego get the best of you.

3. No one is really interested in your own opinion of your own product.

4. Sony's original capsule is available for sale so i don't see why you wouldn't invest in one for reverse engineering, also i'm pretty sure Heisermann can build one that is accurate without you having to "tweak" it.

5. K67 based on Neumann CAN NOT be "tweaked" to match Sony's. Unless you found a way to break laws of physics.

6. Even though it might not seem to you, i'm doing my best not to let you commit professional suicide. I know how this could come off, but i am probably the last person here you want to argue on this, and i'm not really sure you are aware who i am. There are very specific reasons why i am in a position to RESPONSIBLY CLAIM your product is off. And i am not playing the typical "how dare you, do you know who i am" game, to a wise person this should be enough.

If i wanted to, i could exploit your return policy for this mic and put a nail in a coffin, but again i have reasons why i won't do that. Yet, you could have just asked in the inbox what the issues with your mic is, and that wouldn't have costed you much, if anything. You would have even gained an advantage against your rip-off competitor companies.

You are totally right.

I am sorry but I don't get into personal attacks nor am I interested in these type of exchanges. It's a waste of your time and mine.

I know where the similarities and differences between a K67 and a Sony capsule begin and end. I have done my best to compensate for them to the point I am happy with the outcome and have a wonderful sounding microphone. If that's not good enough for you or others then it is what it is. There are plenty of alternatives out there.

Relax.

 

[Matt Nolan]

Stam, does your capsule match the Sony in off axis response? I think that is part of the point that kingkorg is trying to make about using your mic with a Sony in a stereo pair.

 

[arthurmsc]

The only thing i can go by are the responses i've taken and ATK measurements which are pretty good.

Townsend Labs Sphere's C800 model and original C800 have exact same responses and sound exactly the same to me in ATK site. Extrapolating this further, and combining with my own measurements i came to conclusion the capsule found in Behringer B2 Pro (early model with detachable head) has closest response to C800 capsule. As it's nothing like Neumann's k67/87 it even led me to wonder if this capsule could be based on Sony's.

B2 is also quite popular for similar sources, shine on acc guitars, and is often used by people not afraid of cheap mics. Lots of RnB, Rap enthusiasts seem to like what B2 does, and it makes sense.

The only thing i can go by are the responses i've taken and ATK measurements which are pretty good.

Townsend Labs Sphere's C800 model and original C800 have exact same responses and sound exactly the same to me in ATK site. Extrapolating this further, and combining with my own measurements i came to conclusion the capsule found in Behringer B2 Pro (early model with detachable head) has closest response to C800 capsule. As it's nothing like Neumann's k67/87 it even led me to wonder if this capsule could be based on Sony's.

B2 is also quite popular for similar sources, shine on acc guitars, and is often used by people not afraid of cheap mics. Lots of RnB, Rap enthusiasts seem to like what B2 does, and it makes sense.

Greetings!!! Thanks for continuing this thread!
I already have the old Behringer B-2 Pro. First I'll try using 797 capsule. I also purchased about 30 Soviet tubes 6Zh4P and will select the least noisy one. Do you have any information about what capacitors Sony uses? I only know Vishay ERO MKP 1841.
Maybe someone here has information about the transformer? I think someone said it was Sowter! But which model? I think this may be true, but Sony said that the transformer is made in the USA... Also, maybe someone has complete photos of the Sony c800/c800g circuit?
Some people said something, but I want to draw your attention to the fact that I want to make a microphone only for personal use, and I am also VERY interested in the DIY topic.

 

[arthurmsc]

Fine, I found a video on YouTube where a guy disassembles the AC-MC800G power supply. I was able to see that Sony uses NIPPON CHEMI-CON, ELNA and MGC Matsushita Japan capacitors. But I could not find the exact models of capacitors, since the quality of photos and videos where the Sony c800g is used is very low. I also discovered that the power supply has undergone changes over the history of the microphone's production. Namely, 3 dual capacitors located horizontally were replaced with 6 conventional capacitors. I believe that the capacitors were a special order from Sony, so you won't find exactly the same ones on the market. But, I think you can try to find very similar ones. I still can’t find high-quality photos of the Sony c800g circuit to determine the exact models of radio components and I will be glad if someone shares them. I'm also thinking about the transformer. I'm thinking about buying a Cinemag/Jensen or some other transformer made in the USA EI35 (or 375) and trying to rewind it. I want to hear your thoughts, friends!)

 

[Whoops]

If you think that the specific brand and model of the capacitors in the PSU are important then you are looking in the wrong direction and very far from understanding what is really important in this complex and very specific product