If only two mics... ?

[thor.zmt]

Does it look simple to you?

Every complex question has one million simple and utterly wrong answers.



The unpleasant truth is, we live in a buzzing, active spikey sensory world, where no two snowflakes are identical (including the LGBTQ pro HAMAS kind), where we see flying aparations in the sky we cannot reliably determine and classify as US 8th generation spy plane, Chinese 1st generation spy balloon, heat inversion, sundog or invasion of the Chinese RGB LED Drones.

Expecting simple answers to simple question is laughable.

Because the question is simple only to asker and only because he believes he already knows the answer.

To stick with the UFO schtick. Most people believe they know what UFOs are.

But if you know what a UFO is, it's not a UFO, it's a KFO (known flying object).

Except of course, you don't really know, do you? So it remains a UFO, because you only believe you know, but lack true gnosis, the touchstone of proof, of reliable confirmation.

I recommend this:

Robert Anton Wilson - Committee for Surrealist Investigation of Claims of the Normal

Plus, critical paranoia. Per Salvador Dali.



Thor

 

[pmfalcman]

@Emmathom - I learnt that there is a lot of approaches and solutions and none is perfect. Each is praised by ones and scorned by others. No universal truths except one:
"if it sounds good, it is good".

Keep two cardioids and two omnis, choose by lowest noise and call it a day. Two mics, two types... it's still two, right? Having two additional mics never killed anybody.
Record, experiment and enjoy the process.
I'd keep the S502 (if I had one. I don't need it but I'd love to. I'm fighting not to buy one... @MicUlli thread didn't help, khem...) because I like ORTF. In spite of all the flak it caught here
It just sounds good for me.

[heresy incoming] Get yourself a piece of aluminium tube, mount two cardios in ORTF, two omnis as spaced pair (what was that? 66 cm, yes?) adjust relative levels in post.
If you worry about combing - ditch the comb, get a brush. Problem solved.

I do field recording, not classical music - lucky me.

 

[pmfalcman]

we see flying aparations in the sky we cannot reliably determine and classify as US 8th generation spy plane, Chinese 1st generation spy balloon, heat inversion, sundog or invasion of the Chinese RGB LED Drones.

They all leave deadly chemtrails. That one's for sure.

 

[Emmathom]

@Emmathom - I learnt that there is a lot of approaches and solutions and none is perfect. Each is praised by ones and scorned by others. No universal truths except one:
"if it sounds good, it is good".

That's for sure true !

Keep two cardioids and two omnis, choose by lowest noise and call it a day. Two mics, two types... it's still two, right? Having two additional mics never killed anybody.

Yes... but I never wanted to say that one should keep only two mics, but was referring at two mics at a time...

Record, experiment and enjoy the process.
I'd keep the S502 (if I had one. I don't need it but I'd love to. I'm fighting not to buy one... @MicUlli thread didn't help, khem...) because I like ORTF. In spite of all the flak it caught here
It just sounds good for me.

I found the ORTF (and especially the Superlux S502 v1 or v2) pretty great ! The best job I've done (a quintet + harpiscord) was with it (+ a tube cardio on Harp.) So "If only two mics" to take out with me not knowing where I'm going to record, I would ask myself between the Superlux and a sdc omni pair (and would certainly take the two pairs)

[heresy incoming] Get yourself a piece of aluminium tube, mount two cardios in ORTF, two omnis as spaced pair (what was that? 66 cm, yes?) adjust relative levels in post.
If you worry about combing - ditch the comb, get a brush. Problem solved.

knowing that I'm bald... it makes me laugh even louder !

I do field recording, not classical music - lucky me.

Happy 31 Mister pmfalcman !

Happy 31 to ya all, all around the world

 

[Emmathom]

One last for the end of the 2024 road...

 

[pmfalcman]

That's for sure true !

Yes... but I never wanted to say that one should keep only two mics, but was referring at two mics at a time...

Then it's easier this way
And remember: S502 counts as one mic!

knowing that I'm bald... it makes me laugh even louder !

Hahahahaha! So you're naturally immune to combing effect
Very convenient.

Happy 31 Mister pmfalcman !

Happy 31 to ya all, all around the world

Thanks and all the best to you too.
(The flattest response I could manage)

 

[thor.zmt]

Hahahahaha! So you're naturally immune to combing effect

No, he ain't.

His ears are non-coincident, so any off enenter sound source must introduce comb filtering.

So almost anything and everything we hear is not only a flying aparation leaving chemtrails, but they are well combed too.

It is likely, based on my understanding of both the physiological hearing process (aka the hardware) and the psychoacoustic hearing process (call that the software) and the learned response to sounds that established deep and priority pathways in the adult human brain,(call that wetware) that comb filtering plays an integral part for the direction perception of steady(ish) tones.

We always need consider the target if we do engineering. Or sniping. Without a correct target designation, the best sniper fails.

And missing someone is a terrible feeling. Ask any sniper who missed a shot. And yes, we do miss a lot.

Thor

 

[JohnRoberts]

are you guys drinking already? Must be...

JR

 

[thor.zmt]

@Emmathom - I learnt that there is a lot of approaches and solutions and none is perfect.

Precisely. Perfection is the domain of the primum movens. At best wd can asymptomatically approach perfection.

"if it sounds good, it is good".

Yup. In the end that is what matters.

Liefert die eierlegendewollmilchsau wirklich eier, milch, wolle und guten schinken?

(Does the egg laying wooly milk pig really deliver eggs, milk, wool and good ham?)

Before I introduced two concepts, namely the limited perfection and the unlimited imperfection.

When capturing the spatial aspect of a given performance, using a specific setup, of the limited perfection kind can deliver about audible perfection in context to be fine, but will fail in a different situation.

Let me take two examples.

Both use a smallish early music ensf.ble, a few strings, recorder/flute, spinet, soprano for vocals, I'll have Emma Kirkby please.

Say we take an excerpt fo Vivaldi's Gloria

One setup is in a small intimate space, barely larger than a modegn living room.

The other is a gothic cathedral, with the pipe organ being put into play instead of the spinet.

que une différence ?

Clearly, a setup that works well for the first setup, is unlikely to do well on the second.

So, baring the use of scientifically designed "infinite perfect(ible)" recording setups that are corrected by exposure to practice and thus perpetually perfected, we need different ways to record, of which having a range of different mic's is just the start.

The only utterly useless thing is a dogma combined with "only two mic's".

Thor

PS, remember, whoever does with the most toys wins.

PPS, I'd probably recommend 4 pairs plus one.

A pair of fixed pattern SDC Omnis and Cardioids, plus a pair of fixed pattern LDC Omnis and Cardioids. Final addition a crossed 8 stereo ribbon mic (e.g. B&O restored).

Add in stands, spiders and 8 channels of clean mic pre and ADC (probably have to be DIY or pay five figures) and we have something that covers 90+% of all xases where minimalist recordings make sense.

In fact, I'd probably always use all these mic's and all recording channels (we have them anyway) and pick later what combo we worked best.

Back in the 80's and early 90's we could only dream of such possibilities. Now they are trivial...

Thor

 

[Emmathom]

are you guys drinking already? Must be...

JR

Not yet for me... but "soon come" (Jamaican patois)

 

[thor.zmt]

are you guys drinking already? Must be...

JR

Hell yeah!

Thor

 

[k brown]

Reaching waaay back to the original post, I'll second the suggestion already made, that what would do the most different things well, are a pair of SDCs with interchangeable capsules.

Probably the best value right now (if not doing any 'DIY') would be a pair of Rode NT5 with both omni and card capsules. The cards can be given a bit less brittle sound by covering up the bottom row of vent slits, which will make them closer to subcardioids.

https://www.amazon.com/Rode-Compact-Cardioid-Condenser-Microphones/dp/B0002PZ01C

https://www.amazon.com/Rode-NT45-O/...cs&sprefix=rode+nt45-o,electronics,261&sr=1-6

 

[thor.zmt]

Reaching waaay back to the original post, I'll second the suggestion already made, that what would do the most different things well, are a pair of SDCs with interchangeable capsules.

My only complaint, SDC's sound "small" as card's. Best left as Omnis. But then, LDC Omnis from the start also seems to something better.

SDC's win in the treble, LDC in mid (and to a point bass).

There is a reason, that outside marketing literature, nobody has made a single driver, constant directivity speaker with cardioid directivity and -3dB points at 20Hz and 20KHz.

Thor

 

[pmfalcman]

are you guys drinking already? Must be...

JR

Nope. But if you insist..

 

[pmfalcman]

Reaching waaay back to the original post, I'll second the suggestion already made, that what would do the most different things well, are a pair of SDCs with interchangeable capsules.

What was wrong with your previous (deleted) advice?
Seemed very sound.
Isn't a set of two cardioids and two omnis more versatile?
I'm thinking in terms of having both tools at ones' disposal at all times.

 

[k brown]

FWIW, here are some Tony Faulkner thoughts on SDC cardioids.

"Re. 4-way phased array I have been happiest using subcardioids because the 'native' sound of all the small diaphragm cardioids I know is too brittle. It sometimes helps to eq the cardioids with some shelf boost at the lowest frequency your system can deliver. 2dB shelf boost at 20Hz on our SADiE can lose some of the perma-frost of SDC's. The Schoeps CCM21's are not inexpensive, I realise, and that must be an issue. The DPA4011's are pretty good too, but also not inexpensive. I have not tried them, but have been told by colleagues that the German MB equivalent of the Schoeps MK21 is good and quite a lot less expensive. I liked the Gefell M950 subcardioid but it has two problems: it is heavy and it is still quite pricy. Another DIY solution you might try is to slow your existing cardiod mics down by masking off one of the fins on the rear chamber of the mic heads. I use Rode NT6's from time to time and I stick some insulating tape around the bottommost opening of the back chamber of the capsule... The Schoeps MK5 capsule is switchable mechanically between cardioid and omni and this is achieved by shutting off the rear chamber when you want omni - I figured you could try something similar with sticky tape to achieve an intermediate pattern."

I think he meant to type 12dB at 20Hz.

 

[k brown]

What was wrong with your previous (deleted) advice?
Seemed very sound.
Isn't a set of two cardioids and two omnis more versatile?
I'm thinking in terms of having both tools at ones' disposal at all times.

Do you mean about putting the innards of Rode capsules into Behringer B5 capsule shells?

If so, I just realized that it wasn't all that much cheaper than just buying a pair of NT5, plus a pair of NT45-O capsules. And the original post didn't ask about 'DIY' options.

 

[pmfalcman]

Do you mean about putting the innards of Rode capsules into Behringer B5 capsule shells?

If so, I just realized that it wasn't all that much cheaper than just buying a pair of NT5, plus a pair of NT45-O capsules. And the original post didn't ask about 'DIY' options.

Ah, OK, I see.

Then I saw you made a post about this in the Rode-B5 thread

 

[Emmathom]

Rode NT5 + 2 omnis = ~511€
or
Rode NT55 pair kit (2 cardios + 2 omnis) = ~700€

Is there a difference about quality ?

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Rode NT5 + 2 omnis = ~511€
or
Rode NT55 pair kit (2 cardios + 2 omnis) = ~700€

Is there a difference about quality ?

Nothing in the specs show a definite difference, except 1dB in noise performance. Maybe a difference in max SPL but it's not spec'd for teh 55.
The capsules are indeed the same, so the only visible difference is the pad and low-cut. How much value are they to you...?