It’s a generational thing rant.

[JohnRoberts]

That sounds a lot like Chinese communism, or Japanese fascism to me. You don't "produce" the kind of people someone would like. Education should aim at getting the best for the pupil, not for the parents, or, worse, the government.

education "should" prepare children to be successful in life. Sadly bad actors try to co-opt that education to bend young minds while they are still malleable.

That the west lost it's manufacturing isn't due to a lack of trained people. It's simply due to capitalism.

not quite that simple, capitalism (the pursuit of profit) is a contributing factor but china others in the pac rim have traded cheap labor and substandard working conditions for "US dollars".

I'm not gonna tell you that's wrong. Just a reminder: the majority of people learn some trade or skill in school and then go on to do something completely different in their later professional life. Besides, you can't plan for new needs. When the IT industry was born, there were no schools for programmers. Nor for computer designers.

Yup you can't learn technology that does not exist yet, but you can learn how to learn.

What I think is important for a general preparation into a meaningful job, is math. Second are languages. All the rest is optional, really. Maybe I've seen one too many attempts at "producing" the right people for the job.

which job..? STEM skills are useful. So are communication skills.

A few of the programmers I used to work with, had arts training. One other was a butcher.

I taught myself programming microcontrollers decades later... not at all like keypunching hollerith cards I did as a college freshman, while in hindsight I see the parallel.

I was wrong, I follow a few channels made by someone with a phd. But I hadn't even noticed. Besides, most of the interesting ones are made by someone who is passionate about the subject. And that's all it takes. You learn along the way.

I have known several PhDs (piled higher and deeper) I wouldn't let park my car, and others who are brilliant (like my older brother)

Up until a few months ago, I managed a team of "gardeners" amongst other things. In quotes, cause none of them had the training. Also, there were about a dozen different languages spoken and maybe twenty nationalities in total. Nobody seemed able to get that to work. All it needed was for the "management" to get to know their workers. Once you know them, you find out what drives them. A bit hard if you can't talk to them. A few of them were capable of expressing themselves in English, but they hid it. Afraid of responsibility without reward.

While in the army I was once tasked with supervising a detail to load duffle bags and foot lockers from a staging area onto a truck (during a NATO maneuver when the air force flew an entire army division from KS to Germany.) The military has a system of rank where higher ranked solders lead and order lower ranked soldiers what to do. My problem was that at the time I only had the rank of maybe E3 (PFC) while the detail I was assigned contained random E4s and maybe even some E5s. There was no way that I could make them do the work just by telling them to, but it was in the middle of the night and dark so they couldn't easily see my low rank. I call this strategy "it's easier to pull a rope than push it". I just said, this is what we need to do, and started humping duffels and foot lockers up onto the truck myself. Enough of that detail joined me in the effort and the task was accomplished relatively quickly and painlessly.

Supervising that army detail was easier than herding cats around here.

JR

 

[sahib]

Why would it suggest that?

I don't know. Unless you are using some unknown dialect of the English Language

Let's see your comment.

Why's that sad? A while back, "professional game tester" was very high on the list. Some have that job and have learned it's a job. Not a dream. Would it be better if they'd want to be a fireman?

"Would it be better if they'd want to be a fireman?"

What do you think this means?

It means being a professional game tester is better than being a fireman.

The key is in the " ...Would it be better......?"

No doubt you did not mean it that way, but it means that way.

 

[Matador]

The study just says "54% would become an influencer, given the opportunity," which no kidding.

You can s/influencer/movie star/g and everything else fits exactly, going back over nearly the past 100 years. It turns out the professions with the highest return on time invested seem to be the most popular (which is why nobody wants to do audio engineering anymore).

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I did, too. My mom was a school teacher and was cool about it. She told me later, as an adult, she understood I wanted to be like our trash man, Mr. Defouw, because he was a hard worker and a polite, pleasant man to know. She endorsed and promoted these qualities as they are good qualities to have. After obtaining a doctorate level degree, and pursuing a career as a licensed professional, I am convinced it would have been more lucrative removing refuse and easier to actually collect trash removal fees than try to collect my professional fees from recalcitrant clients! So, you were not alone in your particular career aspiration, and there is nothing wrong with earing a living through hard work. I told many clients to stop describing their occopation as "factory rat" because manufacturing and making things is a noble and necessary occupation which expands wealth in the economy - much more than my providing a "service" and deriving (leeching) my income from theirs. James

My grandparents grew up in farming families and were among the first generation to move into town for work. Their children (my parents' generation) were the first to go to college. I learned early the value of work and money. My first job at age 14 or 15 was as a part time janitor after school. I was part pf a crew of about a dozen guys (no girls applied) aged 14-18 who cleaned the local large middle school for two hours every weekday. We were supervised by the two full time janitors. Our pay was $2.65 an hour when I started.

My first assignment was to walk the ~6 acre campus picking up any litter. I had a nasty canvas shoulder bag and a cut off broom handle with a sharpened nail sticking out of one end. Rain or shine. Thankfully after a week or two one of the indoor guys quit and I got moved inside. They didn't think I could handle it because I was small. I did my work and surprised them all.

My area was about 8 classrooms and a couple hundred feet of wide hallway in the main classroom building. Empty pencil sharpeners, empty trash, clean chalkboards (unless teacher left a note not to), dust mop floors, dust mop halls. All trash was hauled down a steep hill to the dumpster in a metal framed cart with a grubby canvas bag. Some days it took 2-3 trips back and forth to dump the trash.

We got filthy. We helped out if someone was out sick or their area was especially messy. We came from all backgrounds and got along. Working that job for three years and three summers taught me more than any classroom lesson ever did.

My generation was expected to work and my friends had jobs in fast food, retail (stocking shelves, running checkout stations, bagging, gift wrapping), doing landscaping, and whatever else we could find to have a little spending money, buy our first car, help pay for college, or whatever. I think Gen X was the last to have a firm footing in reality. But opinions vary.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

The study just says "54% would become an influencer, given the opportunity," which no kidding. If 20 years ago you'd asked the under-40 crowd if they'd rather be successful and famous rather than working their crappy jobs, the numbers would be at least as high,

I don't think so. Most in my generation understood enough about real life (tm) by their late 20s to early 30s to know the difference between fantasy and reality.

and it's not jobs are more rewarding these days.

Whine on.

It doesn't mean The Youths have no other interests, they just aren't idiots.

I've worked with a lot of the younger crowd. I can tell the difference. Only a small minority seem to be grounded in reality. They may be intelligent, but they often seem to be missing grit, determination, willpower, or something along those lines.

In my experience the current crop of young people have much better BS detectors than the Boomers do.

LOL.

 

[jabe]

Most in my generation understood enough about real life (tm) by their late 20s to early 30s to know the difference between fantasy and reality

Um... the question wasn't "What do you expect to become?" or "What is your career choice" but "given the opportunity..." The "reality" is the hypothetical baked into the question.

Whine on

I'm not whining, I'm more than fine. I just don't blame younger people for not wasting their grit, determiniation, or "something along those lines" on cranky elders who are happy to pay them as little possible while looking down their noses at them and insisting only their delusions are "reality".

 

[pucho812]

Not sure why anyone would talk down on being a garbage man or whatever title you want to give it. They get paid well and you don’t have to go deep in debt with college education to get the job.
No shame there. Plus they handle the stuff no one else wants to, nothing wrong there.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Um... the question wasn't "What do you expect to become?" or "What is your career choice" but "given the opportunity..." The "reality" is the hypothetical baked into the question.


I'm not whining, I'm more than fine. I just don't blame younger people for not wasting their grit, determiniation, or "something along those lines" on cranky elders who are happy to pay them as little possible while looking down their noses at them and insisting only their delusions are "reality".

I don't embrace your stereotypes, especially about elders while there has always been a natural tension between the old and young that is unlikely to go away. Some cultures embrace the elders for their wisdom, while some discard them like worn tires.
===
It is an evolutionary trait for us to think we understand more than we do, to keep our mind free to perceive actual hazards. The older we get and more we study, the more that we appreciate is still left to learn.

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

That sounds a lot like Chinese communism, or Japanese fascism to me. You don't "produce" the kind of people someone would like. Education should aim at getting the best for the pupil, not for the parents, or, worse, the government.

A functioning modern society requires a wide range of jobs to be filled. Or would you prefer tribal life? Reality is thankfully accomodating as, at least until relatively recently, young adults were willing to learn a trade and build a career around it. Capitalism allows the more challenging work to demand better pay in most cases (unless screwed by government's open border policy or badly formulated trade deals like NAFTA).

That the west lost it's manufacturing isn't due to a lack of trained people. It's simply due to capitalism.

No, it's largely due to bad trade policies like NAFTA and giving China most favored nation status.

I'm not gonna tell you that's wrong. Just a reminder: the majority of people learn some trade or skill in school and then go on to do something completely different in their later professional life.

Many do. Many don't. Some change careers with or without additional training because in many cases experience trumps education.

Besides, you can't plan for new needs. When the IT industry was born, there were no schools for programmers. Nor for computer designers.

We used to teach broad skills and fundamentals in STEM which, coupled with creativity, enabled massive advancements over the past century.

What I think is important for a general preparation into a meaningful job, is math. Second are languages. All the rest is optional, really. Maybe I've seen one too many attempts at "producing" the right people for the job.

"
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

--Robert A. Heinlein

A few of the programmers I used to work with, had arts training. One other was a butcher.

I've worked with software guys who were musicians and very good at both. There's something common between these two things in the human brain. The worst SW I've ever encountered was written by guys with PhDs in physics (multiple occurrences).

I was wrong, I follow a few channels made by someone with a phd. But I hadn't even noticed. Besides, most of the interesting ones are made by someone who is passionate about the subject. And that's all it takes. You learn along the way.

Passion and experience. I'm not interested in watching some young kid spouting off about things they have no real experience with.

Up until a few months ago, I managed a team of "gardeners" amongst other things. In quotes, cause none of them had the training. Also, there were about a dozen different languages spoken and maybe twenty nationalities in total. Nobody seemed able to get that to work. All it needed was for the "management" to get to know their workers. Once you know them, you find out what drives them. A bit hard if you can't talk to them. A few of them were capable of expressing themselves in English, but they hid it. Afraid of responsibility without reward.

Good managers are indeed rare. I am thankful to have worked for a few in my career. There's a combination of skills needed to do it well. I know I don't have them.

 

[user 37518]

Yeah sad times indeed. Whenever a 5 year old tells me he wants to be an astronaut i laugh i their stupid FUCKING FACE. Don't they know how much training and physical endurance that takes? Can't believe kids these days would be so fucking stupid

I wish they wanted to be astronauts. This is not the case. Also, relax, you sound so angry. Seems like I touched a nerve?

 

[user 37518]

So it's always OK if you have a phd? Or if you're smart?

It was an example, don't take it out of context, should I've listed every possible profession? And yes, in my case, intelligence does matter, regardless of their academic credentials. Perhaps not for you.

I don't think I follow one channel made by someone with a phd. Am I missing out?

You are.

 

[user 37518]

Why would it suggest that?

My kids dream profession when I was six, was being a garbage collector. When I was twelve, it was more like "something with computers". Now I do both, in a way.

Also, I don't measure a job's importance in that way. To me, they're all equally important. So, the most important is the garabge man, to me.

Perhaps we are showing our age. But when we say kids, we mean young people, not necessarily 5 year olds. As AnalogPackrat posted, this includes genx and millenials.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Um... the question wasn't "What do you expect to become?" or "What is your career choice" but "given the opportunity..." The "reality" is the hypothetical baked into the question.

Potato, potato.

I'm not whining, I'm more than fine.

Seems like a lot of generational angst and victimhood to me.

I just don't blame younger people for not wasting their grit, determiniation, or "something along those lines" on cranky elders who are happy to pay them as little possible while looking down their noses at them and insisting only their delusions are "reality".

Did I blame them? No, I observed a pattern of behavior. I've said it before in The Brewery that a lot of the trouble is helicopter parenting and other bad ideas used by Gen X parents. The youth aren't wasting grit, determination, etc. They don't seem to have any for some reason (never allowed to fail, never given constructive criticism, etc.).

 

[user 37518]

The study just says "54% would become an influencer, given the opportunity," which no kidding. If 20 years ago you'd asked the under-40 crowd if they'd rather be successful and famous rather than working their crappy jobs, the numbers would be at least as high, and it's not like jobs are more rewarding these days. It doesn't mean The Youths have no other interests, they just aren't idiots.
In my experience the current crop of young people have much better BS detectors than the Boomers do.

What is "given the opportunity"? Having a camera?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Good managers are indeed rare. I am thankful to have worked for a few in my career. There's a combination of skills needed to do it well. I know I don't have them.

Managing is hard. I recall when I managed an engineering group for Peavey I discovered that I had to mentally shift gears to be fully in "manager mode" or "design engineer" mode. My job involved performing both tasks at a high level. I had my design work bench just a few steps away from my desk in my office but it was a world away for mindset.

JR

 

[user 37518]

Just to prove my point, we don't need this, no one does....

 

[jabe]

Seems like a lot of generational angst and victimhood to me.

LOL

 

[pucho812]

I just think people need a dose of reality.
People assume that the influencer lives a life style that is completely worry free and everything is free of charge. Read the fine print, it’s not and to have any sort of success you have to really work hard at it.
I know several who are audio based you tubers. Some have more than enough numbers that they can try out gear before purchase. Most at best get a discount when buying direct but it’s not enough to earn a living.

 

[MicMaven]

What I think is important for a general preparation into a meaningful job, is

Regardless of educational background, young people do not seem to have the drive, ambition and desire to work hard. I represented employment agencies and my wife has managed retail clothing stores for decades - and both sources tell me young people currently do not know how to make change and cannot figure basic fractions or percentages with or without a calculator. And they do not seem to understand they must work and earn the money they receive. It is a constant fight to keep cell phones off the work floor. It requires constant effort to motivate them to initiate action and be self-propelled. They seem to think they are entitled to a paycheck, just for being there. And this is reported throughout many industries and business types - it is not a myth or misunderstanding among generations. It is endemic to the species and it is not appear to be getting better over time. You would be amazed at how many young people (high school graduates and older) take their Moms with them to job interviews. I can go on, but I stopped hiring anyone under 50 years of age, and eventually spent the last several years of my career working entirely alone - making me more productive and greatly increasing my income beyond what I could make with any number of secretaries - retiring at 50 years of age, because I was willing to work hard when I was at the office. Nowadays, I cannot find anyone interested in working - for example, a small carpentry job goes unfilfilled because I cannot get anyone willing to do it. Certainly, nobody wants to work on weekends - whereas I recall all of my friends, and their Dads, all working on weekends to make a little more money to improve their situation. Now I cannot find anyone to do it at all, on any day of the week. If it is not a whole house, they would rather watch the game on Saturday PM. Point is - I do not think we are better off today than we were previously. And I do not feel folks are as willing to work as they were before. Just my take - your mileage may differ. James

 

[scott2000]

Scary.. Was telling my son that there are places in like Idaho or Nebraska that have towns of 1k people and such where home prices are where they were decades ago. Nice houses and towns too. But then there's the issue of it being such a small town, it makes you wonder how much money you can really make there....