It's the Climate, Stupid.

[living sounds]

I'm not saying she's a hypocrite. I just said that she does things and ignores the consequences*. AFAIK at least three persons flew. And each of her appearance triggers millions of movements on the  internet, which consume energy. At the end of the day, her carbon footprint is certainly much larger than yours or mine.
Celebrity is not without consequences; the butterfly effect.

*Don't we all...?

Well, the logical fallacy, the non-sequitor, embedded in your argument is the premise that to ultimately achieve political and societal change with regards to stopping and reversing climate change, the entire political fight to get there must be carbon neutral as well. That's not only unrealistic, but, beg my pardon, downright silly.

 

[living sounds]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQshyqCLYHo

Non-sequitor.

 

[living sounds]

This points to a deeper issue. Having 535 people running all aspects of a country is ludicrous - when they are all essentially lawyers  or just plain politicians. They have no actual experience or expertise in most of they subjects over which they legislate. What an utter joke.

A camel is a horse designed by a committee...

Mike

That's why government relies on experts. Most people have probably no idea to what amount highly knowledgable people run the daily affairs of your country.

Great book about the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifth_Risk

It becomes a problem when politicians are elected that don't rely on experts and don't believe in expertise. This especially happens, when moneyed interests can exert too much influence. This is what has happened in the US from the 70s onward.

 

[living sounds]

When I was in my teens (60's) we started to understand the new concept of Ecology, (how nature interacted) but as teenagers we had no power to alter the course of events.  We also well understood the effects of pollution as we had been exposed to mercury, benzine and asbestos in our chemistry labs (bunson mats) and at home with ironing boards.  Our parents smoked until they found out it caused cancer.  Lead in paint had only recently been abolished.

Regarding resources, the Earth could handle the amount of CO2 produced at that time, but the world's population  has more than doubled since then and that is the heart of the problem.  Who can control the world's population?  Unfortunately we now see that nature will take on that task in our childrens lifetime.

The people who hold power now are largely from a finance background but giving way to tech.  The financiers see climate change as a disturbance and inconvenience to their models, because their understanding of climate science is minimal.  The tech guys have had a much better education in that respect and are better equipped  to tackle the issues.

Politicians always take the path of least resistance (Politics is the art of the possible) because they want to get re-elected but now they see the young giving them a new mandate, so perhaps something will happen now.

DaveP

There's a well documented relationship between lead exposure in childhood to latter criminal behaviour. It's downright scary how well these two things track. At least in the west we have gotten a lot better in regards to environmental hazards (the US is currently an outlier, rolling back regulation after regulation, but the Trump administration will not last forever).

Three things are the main problem: Overpopulation, income/wealth inequality and anthropogenic climate change. We are at the beginning of a new progressive era and politicians will tackle all of these.

I would advice against putting all politicians in one basket. There are those who wouldn't be able to do a "real" job, there are those who are in it for money and influence. But there are also those, who fight to make the world a better place. Like Elizabeth Warren. I am hopefull here time has finally come. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

There's a well documented relationship between lead exposure in childhood to latter criminal behaviour. It's downright scary how well these two things track. At least in the west we have gotten a lot better in regards to environmental hazards (the US is currently an outlier, rolling back regulation after regulation, but the Trump administration will not last forever).

Lead is not good, but there are competing studies suggesting that the link between lead exposure and criminal behavior is weak if at all.  Being male correlates much more strongly.

Three things are the main problem: Overpopulation, income/wealth inequality and anthropogenic climate change. We are at the beginning of a new progressive era and politicians will tackle all of these.

several familiar political wedge issues.

I would advice against putting all politicians in one basket. There are those who wouldn't be able to do a "real" job, there are those who are in it for money and influence. But there are also those, who fight to make the world a better place. Like Elizabeth Warren. I am hopefull here time has finally come.

She seems cut from the same cloth as the rest of the crowd. Even Steve Colbert (a friendly late show host) tried to pin her down about raising taxes on the middle class and she weaseled on the answer (didn't answer twice).

She is not my idea of making the world a better place, but she is not trying to appeal to voters like me.

Of course opinions vary. 

JR

 

[Tubetec]

Our government here in Ireland are talking out of two sides of their mouth on climate action/change/environment  , one they want us all to be more aware ,more careful about what we use and what we dump and they also are thinking of personal  carbon credits how ever thats supposed to work. On the other hand chemical/pharma  output is probably the main growth factor in the economy and biggest payer of corp. taxes  . In fact it was a lack of ability by the state to process chemical waste was preventing  many plants from approaching  'full production' .

Its true to say theres no formal qualifications to be a politician , but the abillity to public speak and 'gobshite' the people seems key.
The top table ministers here just now are all privately educated in the most expensive schools and colleges,career moneymen  , private institutions are not unlike any other institution of the state where a heirarchical dog eat dog mentality exists, you know youre place or your kicked down  , I guess I snuk through on a middleclass 'easy train' ticket  , my parents did have aspirations to privately educate me at a boarding school for the last two years  , just as well they saved themselves the cash and me the trouble of doing a 'Keith Moon' job on the schools 18th century clay underground pipe network. ;D

Life thought me well early on to be suspicious of any and all state institutions ,
I know on one hand whole families were put away by the state into the industrial school system , on the other hand people from very well off back rounds who were marched off to private  colleges where an almost identical system of bullying and predatory/abusive behaviour existed as juvenile prisons or borstals .

Id echo Abbeys statement about value for money and proper evaluation in the longer term of any of these 'green offset' technologies , in other words, if the  $h!ty  mess involved in making these new wonder solutions ends up  worse from a global  environmental perspective than the benefits for a small few then its not much of a solution at all is it  The energy saver bulbs then led lights are a perfect case where the environmental impact of the chemicals involved was set aside by green marketing blurb , now far eastern and African countries are rightly starting to refuse to take toxic crap in their back yard we end up stuck with our own mess.

With the search terms 'carbon footprint of mobile phone' its hard to get a single straightforward  answer
by the time you factor in usage, infrastructure and manufacture  it amounts to a lot ,

 

[Tubetec]

Things look to be getting silly again in France ,
Its my guess that this whole carbon tax will amount to rural people having to pay a royalty to central government to burn their own timber  , that'll be a fire fought with fire if they ever try to get it in  .

Its abundantly clear this whole drive to biometrically tag and hold data on  every member of the population pays back its dividends when the state imposes these ad hoc taxes they have become accustomed to making up  , its all money in the bank to central government ,if you dont pay in this life thats ok too ,the Revenue has a copper fastened case against your estate after you die,
full stop,
the end .

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Well, the logical fallacy, the non-sequitor, embedded in your argument is the premise that to ultimately achieve political and societal change with regards to stopping and reversing climate change, the entire political fight to get there must be carbon neutral as well. That's not only unrealistic, but, beg my pardon, downright silly.

You have a strange analysis of my post. When did I say that I want environmentalists to have zero carbon footprint, which is down right impossible? I just said that she should consider the consequences of her actions, in both the positive and negative ways. IMO she doesn't have the maturity and scientific turn of mind to do that.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Non-sequitor.

Non sequitur

 

[abbey road d enfer]

That's why government relies on experts. Most people have probably no idea to what amount highly knowledgable people run the daily affairs of your country.

It happens that one of my neighbours is Dr. Richard Lintzen, climatologist at MIT. He is undoubtedly an expert. However his demonstrations are as equally irreceivable as those of the eco-activists, of which many are not experts.
John Coleman and Dr. Lintzen voluntarily consider one factor, the one that sustains their claims, but I would say it's the mirror attitude to eco-activists who want to cover the world with photovoltaic panels, ignoring the fact that teh energy that is absorbed by them comes as a susbstraction to the calorific equilibrium that constitutes our climate. On a large scale photovoltaic electricity is good to provide heating in summer.
The real issue is global warming is here to stay, whatever we do, we may slow it down a little, but the end is the same.
Emissions is another issue, distantly related to warming (responsible for a tiny fraction), but they are also a valuable cause, because it's our lungs.
Believe me, I'm as much eco-friendly as I can, a compost in my garden, sorting garbage, drive an electric car, thermal insulated house, but I can't support eco-activists as they are.

 

[JohnRoberts]

You have a strange analysis of my post. When did I say that I want environmentalists to have zero carbon footprint, which is down right impossible? I just said that she should consider the consequences of her actions, in both the positive and negative ways. IMO she doesn't have the maturity and scientific turn of mind to do that.

You realize if you burn the straw man it releases carbon into the atmosphere.... (so does breathing).

JR

PS Just got my august power bill and my power consumption is down 25-30% from this same period last year despite 24x7 air conditioning now... the new 2 ton heat pump is tres efficient. At this rate it will pay for itself in 30-40 years...  8)

 

[JohnRoberts]

It happens that one of my neighbours is Dr. Richard Lintzen, climatologist at MIT. He is undoubtedly an expert. However his demonstrations are as equally irreceivable as those of the eco-activists, of which many are not experts.
John Coleman and Dr. Lintzen voluntarily consider one factor, the one that sustains their claims, but I would say it's the mirror attitude to eco-activists who want to cover the world with photovoltaic panels, ignoring the fact that teh energy that is absorbed by them comes as a susbstraction to the calorific equilibrium that constitutes our climate. On a large scale photovoltaic electricity is good to provide heating in summer.
The real issue is global warming is here to stay, whatever we do, we may slow it down a little, but the end is the same.
Emissions is another issue, distantly related to warming (responsible for a tiny fraction), but they are also a valuable cause, because it's our lungs.
Believe me, I'm as much eco-friendly as I can, a compost in my garden, sorting garbage, drive an electric car, thermal insulated house, but I can't support eco-activists as they are.

Don't confuse us with facts.  ;D ;D ;D

The people who say this is simple are perhaps the simple ones.  I won't repeat the obvious, but political arguments have to be kept simple to appeal to the low information masses.
---
Equally annoying was a climate shindig in Italy a while back where all the woke A listers flew something like 114 private jets in to posture in like minded company.

JR

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Just got my august power bill and my power consumption is down 25-30% from this same period last year despite 24x7 air conditioning now... the new 2 ton heat pump is tres efficient. At this rate it will pay for itself in 30-40 years...  8)

same thing here having replaced my 10y old boiler for a new condensing boiler. I believe it will pay for itself in about 7 years, so I need to undertake another project that only my heirs will benefit from; heat pump seems to fit the bill...

 

[DaveP]

IMO she doesn't have the maturity and scientific turn of mind to do that.

What you have missed is that her youth  has galvanized a planet wide generation, something that all the experts in the world have failed to do.  She is incredibly articulate for a 16/17 year old speaking in a foreign language and all she does is point to the science and the scientists.  I wonder who else has got the maturity and scientific turn of mind to do that.

DaveP

 

[abbey road d enfer]

What you have missed is that her youth  has galvanized a planet wide generation,

I haven't missed that, but it fails to work on me.

something that all the experts in the world have failed to do. 

Which sends us back a few posts. "That's why government relies on experts" And also to a signature of one of our members: "why do people love to believe and hate to know" (non verbatim). Experts need to take comedy and dance lessons if they want to be heard.

She is incredibly articulate for a 16/17 year old speaking in a foreign language

I don't deny that; she has the talent to make her heard.

and all she does is point to the science and the scientists.

That's not the impression she left on me. I thought she was predominantly emotional. We are inundated with emotional people who, after a decisive incident in their life, endeavour to make it the subject of a lifetime mission  and are presented by the media as experts.  Look at road accidents victim parents associations that become experts in road security, people who had one of their relatives dying of cancer and become experts in fine particle pollution, etc...
being a designed victim of global warming or pollution (two different subjects IMO) does not automatically confer the title of expert in climatology or allergology.

  I wonder who else has got the maturity and scientific turn of mind to do that.

You'd be surprized at the maturity of many youngsters, but they are probably concentrating on subjects that are not so mediatically exposed.

 

[JohnRoberts]

What you have missed is that her youth  has galvanized a planet wide generation, something that all the experts in the world have failed to do.  She is incredibly articulate for a 16/17 year old speaking in a foreign language and all she does is point to the science and the scientists.  I wonder who else has got the maturity and scientific turn of mind to do that.

DaveP

Not to inject European history but there was the children's crusade back in the 13th century..

JR

PS: For some real courage and leadership how about the young women attending schools in Pakistan and Afghanistan where conservative religious Taliban followers attack them with acid (or worse) to discourage seeking education.

 

[Scodiddly]

Not to inject European history but there was the children's crusade back in the 13th century..

More in line with recent history, how old was Jimi Hendrix when he became incredibly popular and influental?

There's often a knee-jerk reaction from older people when youngsters show up with talent, but it's often the young people with energy and audacity who are willing to change things.  Like I said earlier - there are a lot of old people who are hoping that the current system they're invested in stays around until they die.  After that, who cares.

 

[ruffrecords]

Like I said earlier - there are a lot of old people who are hoping that the current system they're invested in stays around until they die.  After that, who cares.

And I think there are a lot of old people who care passionately about the world they leave behind for their children and grandchildren.

Cheer

Ian

 

[abbey road d enfer]

So, in short, there are fear-motivated young ecologists and guilt-motivated old ecologists.  :-[

 

[DaveP]

So, in short, there are fear-motivated young ecologists and guilt-motivated old ecologists.  :-[

And then there's the cynical....................?

DaveP