K47 / M7 (Theirsch or Peluso?)

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jtmotenz

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2024
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5
Location
New Jersey
Does anyone have experience with the Peluso PK47 capsules? I know he also sells reskinned Neumann capsules, so how would the two of them differ?

The Theirsch M7 capsules are another option for me, but I’d really rather not pay for overseas shipping if I don’t have to. Maybe someone in the US is willing to sell me one?

(Maybe even a genuine Neumann capsule for the right price)

Apologies for bringing up a well covered topic, but a current update & options for 47 replica capsule would be very helpful.

Thanks!

-JT
 
Does anyone have experience with the Peluso PK47 capsules? I know he also sells reskinned Neumann capsules, so how would the two of them differ?

The Theirsch M7 capsules are another option for me, but I’d really rather not pay for overseas shipping if I don’t have to. Maybe someone in the US is willing to sell me one?

(Maybe even a genuine Neumann capsule for the right price)

Apologies for bringing up a well covered topic, but a current update & options for 47 replica capsule would be very helpful.

Thanks!

-JT
@soliloqueen sells 1:1 confirmed, measured Neumann k47 replicas.

https://store.arienneaudio.com/micr...-microphone-capsule.html#/14-options-cardioid

Peluso, even though this particular capsule might be great, is not to be trusted IMHO. He's been selling lots of simple, cheap chinese re-branded capsules.

Thiersch is the real deal, it's just that his son in law has taken over, but i guess we should presume the quality and capsules are still just as good.

The issue might be you are not sure whether to get k47 (Peluso)or M7(Thiersch). They are quite different, and can sound nothing alike, depending on the type.
 
@soliloqueen sells 1:1 confirmed, measured Neumann k47 replicas.

https://store.arienneaudio.com/micr...-microphone-capsule.html#/14-options-cardioid

Peluso, even though this particular capsule might be great, is not to be trusted IMHO. He's been selling lots of simple, cheap chinese re-branded capsules.

Thiersch is the real deal, it's just that his son in law has taken over, but i guess we should presume the quality and capsules are still just as good.

The issue might be you are not sure whether to get k47 (Peluso)or M7(Thiersch). They are quite different, and can sound nothing alike, depending on the type.
Interesting to hear that about Peluso.
I’ve been hearing about the Arienne capsules over and over again, so that’s definitely my #1 contender for K47.

I am in fact undecided about M7 vs K47… I’ve heard the M7s and Thiersch capsules in specific run a bit darker, but having been a long time AKG fan, it might be nice having a darker mic in my locker. (I record live jazz most of the time, and Rudy Van Gelder- THE recording guy from all the classic Blue Note records used an early Telefunken U47 which would have likely had a M7 capsule.)

Anyways, I’ve heard that the Arienne capsules don’t have that weird peak in the high frequencies, so that’s promising.

Anyone want to help me make a decision?

Ahhhh I hate decisions…
 
Anyone want to help me make a decision?
Good luck with that. I went by certain logic that Neumann and many other designers were always aiming for flattest possible response. Even sm57 designer.... It also alligns with what i like to hear. Which is why i went crazy about Soliloqueen's flat k47. Which is more M7 like.

On the other hand, there are some legit, vintage M7 that are anything but flat. With that peak you mentioned. Just measured one last week. I can post the measurement later. Some people have that sound baked in their mind when talking u47, and M7.

All of this makes the decision very difficult, especially with all the random capsule variants out there with no published specs, all of them claiming to be the real deal.

With Arienne's k47 you at least get 100% measured and confirmed current production Neumann's k47 response which alligns with vintage variants, although some vinage ones can be out of whack and atypical.
 
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Regarding K47/M7 differences, I record a lot of classical music and jazz. I am a big fan of the M7. It is in all of my U47-style mics except one where I have an original Neumann K47. That mic is used least by me but is fantastic when it's the right thing. But I like a slightly "neutral"/darker sound...
 
Both stock, well functioning M7 vintage original capsules measured under exactly the same conditions outside the body. Very different backplates, very different sound, they sound nothing alike actually.
 

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Both stock, well functioning M7 vintage original capsules measured under exactly the same conditions outside the body. Very different backplates, very different sound, they sound nothing alike actually.
probably the same anatomical difference as between the regular and flat k47
 
probably the same anatomical difference as between the regular and flat k47
From what i could see without busting them it does seem to be. Interestingly, based on Gefell graphs on their site, they seem to make both flavors still.

Their CMV 563 has PVC M7s marked with - S, and UM 92.1 S with ''regular'' M7. Published graphs mirror my measurements almost exactly.
 

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Conveniently @nashkato just posted this pic in another thread. Here's a vintage M7 backplate. Notice how unevenly the holes are spaced. Most modern M7 replicas have them perfectly symmetrically spaced. One of many intricacies.

Another piece of the puzzle that confirms my hypothesis we've been all chasing a mirage. Nothing superior about these mics. Just a ton of inconsistencies, making it impossible to make a perfect clone.
 

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@jtmotenz

The Arienne Audio K47 will be a nice capsule option if you want so “desperately” the distinctive bump in the upper mids and the authentic vintage ‘60’s sound to use it in a “voice(s) only” M-49 or U-47 microphone…

The Arienne Audio Flat K47 will be a nice capsule option if now you want to use it in an “all around” M-49 or an Oliver Archut U47 Alternative Tube microphone for instruments and general voice(s) purpose…

In the same way the Siegfried Thiersch Elektroakustik STW7 blue line M-7 PVC capsule will be your preferable capsule option if you want so “desperately” the “all authentic vintage ‘50’s sound”, to use it in a “velvety voice(s) only” M-49 or U-47 microphone…

& the Rico Vetterlein Mikrofonunion STW7 red line M-7 PET capsule will be your preferable capsule option if you want to use it in the UM-57 microphone or even in a CMV563 microphone…

So as you can see both the capsule(s) and the electronic circuit in combination determines a sound & an era and you can go back and forth sound-wise depending upon your likes and upon your needs…
 
Conveniently @nashkato just posted this pic in another thread. Here's a vintage M7 backplate. Notice how unevenly the holes are spaced. Most modern M7 replicas have them perfectly symmetrically spaced. One of many intricacies.

Another piece of the puzzle that confirms my hypothesis we've been all chasing a mirage. Nothing superior about these mics. Just a ton of inconsistencies, making it impossible to make a perfect clone.

Does the exact placement of the holes matter at all? I'd think the averaged sizes of the holes would be important, for damping & resistance, but not the exact placement, if the variations are small relative to the wavelength of the highest audio frequencies. (Although my understanding is the hole size varies, too.)
 
Does the exact placement of the holes matter at all? I'd think the averaged sizes of the holes would be important, for damping & resistance, but not the exact placement, if the variations are small relative to the wavelength of the highest audio frequencies. (Although my understanding is the hole size varies, too.)
Well, just varying the placement of the exact holes i pointed to won't probably do much it does point to inconsistencies that don't stop just there. It is the depth and width of all the holes, and question of adjusting for wear and tear of bits mentioned many times before.

All of this makes sense also, because throughout the history of trying to replicate these, many different sizes were reported. Dale, for example, at least with several of the capsules i had, copied the spacing randomness. Not sure if the spacing is random, or if he just copied exactly from the specimen he was replicating.

Quote from Thiersch:

We admit that proving differences in sound regarding the material of diaphragm of STW7 blue line and STW7 red line is practically impossible for us with the measurement opportunities we can use. STW7 red line has got diaphragms made of Polyester PET also known as Mylar and STW7 blue line stands for our sound transducer skinned with diaphragms made of Polyvinylchlorid (PVC). We limit ourselves to the free field measurement of frequency response in our small semi-anechoic room. As a matter of principle we make an effort to achieve a nearly linear horizontal frequency response for both versions in the range 40-15000 Hz primarily in pattern cardioid. For measurement we install our sound transducer STW7 in a little reflective housing. We use the Neumann U67 housing. Using STW7 together with the lollipop M7 housing causes that the frequency response of STW7 is less linear but equates to the characteristic frequency response of Neumann M7.

Differences in frequency response are primarily caused by differences in electrode (tolerances) and not primarily by diaphragm's material.

Due to our repair and reskin service we made the experience that the tension of diaphragms (e. g. red line) reduces a little bit over a long time whereas the tension of old PVC diaphragms could have increased. One can assume that the aging of PVC is the reason for small differences in sound like less bass, strengthened high frequencies, loss of sensitivity and reverse attenuation caused by a tauter tension of diaphragm. So differences in sound are caused by alterations in tension of diaphragm due to aging process and not directly by chemical composition of diaphragm's material. This small alteration is possibly accepted because these old sound transducers with PVC diaphragms were sometimes attested having the best sound. We use the designated tension of diaphragm for STW7 blue line, STW7 red line, backplates produced by FLEA (only red line material) and for reskinning original Neumann sound transducers. We don't necessarily give the tension that we found before repair because we always give the designated tension. This can be the reason for small differences in sound between PET and PVC used in combination with old (PVC: higher tension of diaphragm, PET: less tension) and newly skinned sound transducers.

More than 20 years ago we started the reskinning of M7 electrodes with Mylar respectively MCF diaphragms. Many years before Neumann Berlin modified the M7 sound transducer for U47 (K47) to make it possible to screw a Mylar diaphragm to the backplate. In contrary to Microtech Gefell they ceased the production of M7 sound transducer. Apart from another diameter (34mm instead of 32mm) the K47 sound transducer is identical with M7. That's why the question of differences in sound between M7/PVC and K47/PET and also regarding a larger diameter can be interesting particularly because the U47/48 was produced with M7 as well as with K47. With the help of our ring STR32/34 the outer diameter of M7 style sound transducer can be adapted to K47 assembly. Acoustically the increasing of outer diameter hasn't a positive influence on sound. That's why holders should be as thin as possible or segment holders should be used (e.g. our offer STS7.1). As a result the sound transducer isn't completely enclosed and not thickened and a short way for sound around the sound transducer is maintained. Our sound transducer STW7.1 in combination with the holder STS7.1 complies with this requirements because segment holder STS7.1 thickens only a small part of the sound transducers and allows that the main part can free. Consequently the frequency response is hardly influenced by the holder.

To define differences in sound regarding the diaphragm's material differences in acoustic color would have to be identified. We didn't examine frequency analysis (harmonics) and unit pulse response. In our opinion the acoustic color should be judged subjectively by comparisons of what can be heard. We aren't sound engineers but we can give the experiences that our customers made. Experiences with STW7 blue line can reach back only to 2008 whereas we used the red line material due to our reskin service much longer.

It's not possible to identify the better sounding STW7. Some of our customers find small differences in sound but some of them prefer STW7 red line other prefer STW7 blue line. It's not possible for us to describe these differences. At this point we want to remind of differences in sound between amplifiers with transistors or tubes. The version with tube is more popular although measurable properties often aren't as good as them of the transistor version. Neumann Gefell respectively Microtech Gefell whose authorized repair shop we were preferred PVC for a long time. In contrast we started the usage of Mylar because we firstly weren't able to manufacture PVC diaphragms. The M7 sound transducers reskinned with PET turned out to be working very well. That's why there wasn't any rush to manufacture PVC diaphragms too. In the meanwhile producers of cheap microphones use diaphragms made of Mylar for condenser microphones too. The demand for diaphragms made of PVC increases and therefore we started with the manufacturing of STW7 in red and blue in 2008.

The differences in material and manufacturing of both synthetic diaphragms are significantly. Therefore we assume that differences in acoustic color can be based upon this. Diaphragms made of metal produce another sound than diaphragms made of synthetic material. Of course additional factors have to be considered. We also manufacture nickel foils and as a result diaphragms made of nickel in our company. PVC diaphragms are harder than PET-diaphragms. The structure of Mylar can be described as inhomogeneous because it's extruded and stretched. The PVC foil that we cast by our own can be signified as homogeneous. Its thickness is approx. 6µm. Optically the vaporized surface of our blue version shows a very good capability of mirroring. Differing properties of expansion and elasticity regarding length and width caused by the industrial production process are reduced by a special finish treatment we give to the material that we use as "red line". Our manufacturing of PVC diaphragms contains the casting of every single diaphragm in a circular area and don't cause differences in length and width.

Mylar is a little bit more porous than PVC in respect of the absorption of water and also the absorption of dust. Especially on non-vaporized spots of diaphragm this can cause problems over time. Due to the humidity of close vocal use noise occurs earlier and makes it necessary to reskin the sound transducer. We like to use MCF instead of Mylar. This material is has got better properties regarding the absorption of water. In case of our red line version we don't distinguish between MCF and Mylar The absorption of water due to air humidity and causes that tension of diaphragm decreases temporarily. We assume and hope based upon our own technology of manufacturing that our STW7 red line and blue line will have a long duration that changing of diaphragms is insignificant and that the sound is preserved with no alteration.
 
Does anyone have experience with the Peluso PK47 capsules? I know he also sells reskinned Neumann capsules, so how would the two of them differ?

The Theirsch M7 capsules are another option for me, but I’d really rather not pay for overseas shipping if I don’t have to. Maybe someone in the US is willing to sell me one?

(Maybe even a genuine Neumann capsule for the right price)

Apologies for bringing up a well covered topic, but a current update & options for 47 replica capsule would be very helpful.

Thanks!

-JT
I have genuine Neumann capsules(check in the black market)
 
Peluso, even though this particular capsule might be great, is not to be trusted IMHO. He's been selling lots of simple, cheap chinese re-branded capsules.

John Peluso is a good friend of mine and I visit his shop frequently. This opinion (above) is not accurate from my eyewitness accounts of his workplace.

John does work with Chinese and domestic companies that manufacture materials for him. But he skins them all himself in his shop. His step-son, Chris, and wife, Mary, work alongside him. They are wonderful folks.

I brought an old U47 to John last year with a damaged capsule. He pulled two vintage M7 reskins from his inventory: one from Theirsch and one he reskinned. The Theirsch (for whatever reason) did not have the low-end authority I wanted. The Peluso reskin did, and sounded beautiful in the mids and top end as well.

So, that’s my opinion based on experience. Hope it helps.
 
John Peluso is a good friend of mine and I visit his shop frequently. This opinion (above) is not accurate from my eyewitness accounts of his workplace.

John does work with Chinese and domestic companies that manufacture materials for him. But he skins them all himself in his shop. His step-son, Chris, and wife, Mary, work alongside him. They are wonderful folks.

I brought an old U47 to John last year with a damaged capsule. He pulled two vintage M7 reskins from his inventory: one from Theirsch and one he reskinned. The Theirsch (for whatever reason) did not have the low-end authority I wanted. The Peluso reskin did, and sounded beautiful in the mids and top end as well.

So, that’s my opinion based on experience. Hope it helps.
That's great to hear! I'll take your word for it given the fact that you've actually been there. I'm also in the same state as his shop, but unfortunately still 6 hours away. (Not visitable, but shipping would be pretty easy)
 
John Peluso is a good friend of mine and I visit his shop frequently. This opinion (above) is not accurate from my eyewitness accounts of his workplace.

John does work with Chinese and domestic companies that manufacture materials for him. But he skins them all himself in his shop. His step-son, Chris, and wife, Mary, work alongside him. They are wonderful folks.

I brought an old U47 to John last year with a damaged capsule. He pulled two vintage M7 reskins from his inventory: one from Theirsch and one he reskinned. The Theirsch (for whatever reason) did not have the low-end authority I wanted. The Peluso reskin did, and sounded beautiful in the mids and top end as well.

So, that’s my opinion based on experience. Hope it helps.
Every time i mention Peluso a good friend, not very regular in the forum section, shows up. While i don't doubt Peluso can do a good job, i am speaking about products available in Europe where i have had experience with them, and got the chance to measure and compare his re-branded products to stock chinese ones. I am not the only one.

And why the obligatory story about wife, husband, kids, honest, kind people, with a dog and a cat every time we point to crappy product?


Edit:
Just because i'm bored...
Here's the lie, after lie, after lie, after lie... From the honest mr. Peluso himself.

Just read the "plot" and look at the image of chinese k67!!! capsule in a u47 style microphone! Because vintage k47 was supposed to sound like chinese k67 when it was new.

https://pelusomicrophonelab.com/22-47-le/#next

If you will i can show you the measurement of this mic, and how it matches in every aspect to chinese capsule. Published FR on the site is fake! And even if it wasn't, that's not even close to how u47 should look like. The nail-polish trick on the screws doesn't work in 2024...
 
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Here are some graphs of the mic i had a chance to dissect. The Peluso 22 47LE.

First here's the graph of FR of the circuit itself. With a u47 as we know it should be flat, but here it has a built in filter cap to hide the fact the mic uses wrong type of the capsule.

Peluso Circuit Frequency Response.jpg

Here's the graph of FR of the capsule, but in a FLAT! circuit. Exactly the same as every k67 of this type i have ever measured. Needless to say, no u47 ever made had a capsule with 10db at 10K. Biggest issue with these stock chinese capsules of this origin is too much leakage from the rear which causes the dip at 5k-ish... Good k67 doesn't have this dip, and has a gradual ride up to 10K.

22 47LE Capsule flat.jpg


Here's the factual frequency response of this mic. Does this resemble any u47 or k47 graph you have ever seen?22 47LE FR.jpg


And here's the published Peluso graph:

.Peluso published graph.jpg



Peluso company is a rotten business, and if the owner of the company is really the man behind all of this i repeat for the thousandth time, he is a liar and a fraud! It is not me who say that, it's the facts!

Here are the all 3.587$ of chinese manufacturing in their full glory! And the 20$ tube.

Screenshot_20240810_231102_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20240810_231119_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20240810_231147_Gallery.jpg
 
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