Live and let live

[Tubetec]

Oh fuck , looks like Ive opened another puzzle box ,
dont forget one rule needs several more to wipe its arse for it .

 

[Brian Roth]

This is slightly on topic:

https://news.yahoo.com/fda-warns-e-coli-contamination-210215334.html
I've seen frequent ads for "HelloFresh" on TV channels. A bit ironic, eh?

Bri

 

[scott2000]

More government is never the answer except in all the cases where it is. And the free market will step in to fix everything except when it doesn't. That's America in a nutshell.

Then there's the regulating of the regulators. Defund the police probably stems from something along those lines . Can't imagine other areas don't share a similar fate?

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Then there's the regulating of the regulators. Defund the police probably stems from something along those lines . Can't imagine other areas don't share a similar fate?

The Legislature is the voice of the people and is intended to create laws. Instead it now creates agencies (bureaucracies) with broad, ill-defined powers. These agencies then make their own rules for us with no recourse. The Legislature is supposed to be the regulator of regulators. This is why many of us are very concerned about the "permanent bureaucracy" of the Federal government.

 

[scott2000]

yeah not sure what to make of some of it. Happened across some of the diesel truck forums and how some of the companies supplying kits for certain delete mods were hit pretty hard. Even one guy had the atf come after him because he bought a bunch of oil filters or something. Guess some people use them for silencers....

 

[pucho812]

The Legislature is the voice of the people and is intended to create laws. Instead it now creates agencies (bureaucracies) with broad, ill-defined powers. These agencies then make their own rules for us with no recourse. The Legislature is supposed to be the regulator of regulators. This is why many of us are very concerned about the "permanent bureaucracy" of the Federal government.

Yes, in California we have, CARB, short for the California air resource board and now we have a fast food council coming to a municipality or county near you if you have a population over 200,000. The fast food council will dictate what fast food can and can't do, how much they can pay their employees and such. The big thing right now is they want fast food franchises like mcdonalds to pay 22 an hour. If mcdonalds does not comply they will face a fine or worse. McDonalds may decide to switch to robotic automation in their food making. I don't usually eat fast food but if the fast food council gets it's way, and it looks like it might as the bill was signed into law by governor newsom, one of two things will happen, Either prices will go up to past the cost of doing business onto the consumer, or they will do layoffs to meet any profit margins and go automated. In turn this will affect any of the low income folks who tend to frequent fast food places as they can afford the inexpensive meals. I don't do fast food regularly, but this is completely asinine.
Any good intentions by the California government often make things worse.
Haven't they learned enough from the first time with CARB?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Can we add a rule prohibiting passive-aggressive trolling, whining to moderators about anything that "hurts my feelings," and aggressive looking avatars? Asking for a friend.

The funniest is when injured parties report me to me (that has actually happened).
===
Let's lighten up, the actual rules are vague. #4 the applicable rule was just posted (agin).

There is too much criticism of people. Much less contentious if we just criticize inanimate things like policy. They don't have feelings to hurt.

JR

 

[hodad]

Hard to tell if this is joking....

Just.......wow.

 

[Tubetec]

I heard an interesting story about Macdonalds years back ,
A person I know , her father was a department of health inspector ,
At one point they started testing the frozen burgers , practically all the samples were contaminated by faecal matter . Nowadays its all done differently , the burgers arrive steam cooked/frozen ,there actually only reheated and maybe given a little colour on the hot plate before its served .

If we were so careful as to never offend anyone with our words , would we really be saying anything of consequence at all ?
As John Cleese said ,cancel culture has killed comedy , everyones afraid they'll end up hacked to bits by the online crap shooters if they say something risqué. Theres a video of the interview up on youtube , I think John Cleese is 80 or more years old now ,but he still has that spark of brilliance , 'Dont mention the war' is one of the funniest comedy sketches ever , with Faulty running around like a headless chicken and doing his funny walks and 'sig heil' saluts . I showed the clip to a couple of German friends , they nearly pissed themselves with laughter ,no offence whatsoever was taken .

 

[rob_gould]

Yes, in California we have, CARB, short for the California air resource board and now we have a fast food council coming to a municipality or county near you if you have a population over 200,000. The fast food council will dictate what fast food can and can't do, how much they can pay their employees and such. The big thing right now is they want fast food franchises like mcdonalds to pay 22 an hour. If mcdonalds does not comply they will face a fine or worse. McDonalds may decide to switch to robotic automation in their food making. I don't usually eat fast food but if the fast food council gets it's way, and it looks like it might as the bill was signed into law by governor newsom, one of two things will happen, Either prices will go up to past the cost of doing business onto the consumer, or they will do layoffs to meet any profit margins and go automated. In turn this will affect any of the low income folks who tend to frequent fast food places as they can afford the inexpensive meals. I don't do fast food regularly, but this is completely asinine.
Any good intentions by the California government often make things worse.
Haven't they learned enough from the first time with CARB?

So you're against low paid fast food workers getting a pay rise in order to preserve the availability of low cost burgers for the low paid? This feels somewhat circular.

I wonder what the burger flippers themselves would say if they were asked?

McDonalds made $12B in profit in 2021. They could just, ya know - give them $22 an hour anyway.

 

[JohnRoberts]

So you're against low paid fast food workers getting a pay rise in order to preserve the availability of low cost burgers for the low paid? This feels somewhat circular.

Where do you think the money comes from if fast food workers get $22/hr for entry level jobs? The price of the food must go up to accommodate the high costs, or the fast food stores will have to use even more robotic cookers. Jobs like flipping burgers are not careers, but entry level jobs to get their foot on the first step of the employment ladder to gain work experience.

I wonder what the burger flippers themselves would say if they were asked?

its easy to speculate they would want as money as they can get, who wouldn't. Over the last 6 years the number of McDonalds workers has dropped from 400,000 to 200,000. Rising minimum wages will lead to even more job cuts and adoption of automation.

Flippy the burger robot...

McDonalds made $12B in profit in 2021. They could just, ya know - give them $22 an hour anyway.

McDonalds is a franchise so the individual stores are generally small businesses, while some operate multiple stores and are not that small.

Here is a link to an article about minimum wage rate increases in SeaTac area (a suburb of Seattle/Tacoma). economists review I won't cherry pick quotes because you already know what I think.

JR

 

[fazer]

AI to the rescue. Just a matter of time. Burger flippers should learn how to fix the automated burger flippers. Now Maybe make up to $50 /hr.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

So you're against low paid fast food workers getting a pay rise in order to preserve the availability of low cost burgers for the low paid? This feels somewhat circular.

Historically fast food restaurants, chain restaurants, and independent low to mid quality restaurants were largely staffed by highschool, college, and young adult people except for management and maybe cooking in the mid-quality establishments. It was a way to earn some spending money, offset college tuition, etc. and paid minimum wage with no benefits. Several of my high school friends and cousins were fast food cooks, some were waiters/waitresses, others busboys. It wasn't uncommon then for a fast food store manager to be a 20-something with a high school education.

I wonder what the burger flippers themselves would say if they were asked?

In the 70s-90s they did the work for a few years and moved up to better jobs. No one looked at it as a career except perhaps the store manager level and up.

McDonalds made $12B in profit in 2021. They could just, ya know - give them $22 an hour anyway.

McDonalds has over 38k stores worldwide and only 14k are in the USA. Divide $12B by 38k and you get about $315k average annual profit per store. Not really a huge number, is it?

Raising pay and prices will reduce profits, cause some stores to close, and make burger-bots a better option for the remaining stores. How does that help anyone except Chinese robot manufacturers? If a low-end burger costs as much as a "premium" one from Five Guys, In-n-Out, Sonic, etc. where do you think people will go?

 

[Matador]

The price of the food must go up to accommodate the high costs,

I think you missed his point. Even taking his numbers, 200k employees generating 12B in profit (meaning above and beyond their cost of employment) is nearly $60k (on average). So each employee's work product is not only covering their own salary, but also generating $60k above their own salary. The average salary is roughly $47k if Forbes is to be believed, and those earning minimum wage are just a fraction of that. McDonalds operates on nearly 50% EBIT margin which is essentially printing money.

So the argument is: if we paid %10 more salary on average, profit might fall from $12B to $11B, margin might fall from 50% to 45%, which is unacceptable, so therefore we must raises prices? If that doesn't clearly illustrate the problem I don't know what would.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Raising pay and prices will reduce profits, cause some stores to close, and make burger-bots a better option for the remaining stores. How does that help anyone except Chinese robot manufacturers? If a low-end burger costs as much as a "premium" one from Five Guys, In-n-Out, Sonic, etc. where do you think people will go?

This trend has been going on for years. As I already mentioned McDonalds has cut their workforce in half no doubt replacing entry level labor with technology.

Raising minimum wage typically results in higher wages for many other workers within the same business, keep workers from quitting. The net result over time is less jobs total. I won't debate wether technology replacing entry level labor is good or bad (my gut sense is mixed). Entry level employment is just another aspect of preparation for adulthood that kids are being denied by all this government help.

My first full time summer job, working in a machine shop, earned me a minimum wage of $1.25/hour (yes I'm old). I learned valuable life lessons. This was my first 40Hr/week job, but not my first job. As a young kid, I mowed lawns, shoveled driveways (in NJ not in MS), and even had a paper route delivering newspapers.

I learned useful life and business lessons from all those random jobs.

JR

PS: A quick web search reveals several vendors automating commercial kitchens, this is not a new trend but wage (and food cost) trends will accelerate this. It obviously takes significant capital investment to build an automated FF store so expect more small FF shops to disappear, while the McDonalds of the world to get bigger.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I think you missed his point. Even taking his numbers, 200k employees generating 12B in profit (meaning above and beyond their cost of employment) is nearly $60k (on average). So each employee's work product is not only covering their own salary, but also generating $60k above their own salary. The average salary is roughly $47k if Forbes is to be believed, and those earning minimum wage are just a fraction of that. McDonalds operates on nearly 50% EBIT margin which is essentially printing money.

So the argument is: if we paid %10 more salary on average, profit might fall from $12B to $11B, margin might fall from 50% to 45%, which is unacceptable, so therefore we must raises prices? If that doesn't clearly illustrate the problem I don't know what would.

I tend to avoid too easy answers. Static economic analysis ASSumes that nothing else changes when you alter one factor or term. I am unwilling to follow you down that particular rabbit hole but McDonalds is a public company so publishes things like net profit margin (more like 25%), data but I repeat they are a franchise so corporate numbers may not reflect individual store metrics.

JR

PS:

Greed is an uncontrolled longing for increase in the acquisition or use of material gain; or social value, such as status, or power. Greed has been identified as undesirable throughout known human history because it creates behavior-conflict between personal and social goals.

FWIW Mike Douglas was playing a fictional character, but there is no doubt that some greed exists in business (and politics).

IMO The pursuit of profit has driven many technology advances in modern culture. Where the profit motive, turns into greed is somewhat subjective.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I think you missed his point. Even taking his numbers, 200k employees generating 12B in profit (meaning above and beyond their cost of employment) is nearly $60k (on average). So each employee's work product is not only covering their own salary, but also generating $60k above their own salary. The average salary is roughly $47k if Forbes is to be believed, and those earning minimum wage are just a fraction of that. McDonalds operates on nearly 50% EBIT margin which is essentially printing money.

They aren't even in the top 100. Might be around 200th.

https://tipalti.com/profit-per-employee/

So the argument is: if we paid %10 more salary on average,

profit might fall from $12B to $11B, margin might fall from 50% to 45%, which is unacceptable, so therefore we must raises prices?

Show your math. Your equation ignores other overhead (FICA comes to mind).

If that doesn't clearly illustrate the problem I don't know what would.

McD employees are free to find work elsewhere. Or improve their skills and get a better job or an actual career. None of my family or friends who worked in fast food or restaurants did it longer than a few years because they set higher goals and worked to achieve them. If you want to demotivate people, be sure to pay them more for not learning anything beyond how to run a deep-fryer and griddle.

 

[pucho812]

So you're against low paid fast food workers getting a pay rise in order to preserve the availability of low cost burgers for the low paid? This feels somewhat circular.

I wonder what the burger flippers themselves would say if they were asked?

McDonalds made $12B in profit in 2021. They could just, ya know - give them $22 an hour anyway.

No. what I am against is the California government creating yet another agency with no accountability that is dictating policy. Policy should come from the legislature not from a third party entity.
If McDonald’s decided to raise those wages, good, if they pass that onto the consumer, ok, their choice. If government raises minimum wages, fine there will be consequences both pros and cons to it all. But a third party entity dictating policy is a recipe for disaster….

 

[AnalogPackrat]

It's a problem when people assume the economy runs the same way today as it did decades ago. It doesn't. These days, if you are on the labor side of the equation you are extremely disadvantaged, even in professional fields.

It largely does. I worked retail (Eckerd Drugs) for a few months one year in the mid to late 80s. Even a store clerk position required a psych test, drug test, etc. And I made minimum wage which was around $4/hr. On my feet for 8-10 hour shifts during Christmas and Easter. If you haven't bothered to develop any skills, you will always be at a disadvantage. That hasn't changed.

The USA is basically UCA now, United Corporations of America. Do what you want, exploit who you want, all with personal impunity under the corporate shield. The politicians in turn take their cut, then enact laws to make the corps stronger while weakening and punishing the little guy.

I agree that corporations have far too much power and influence. Money isn't speech and corporations aren't citizens, much less people. It needs to be addressed.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Only if you look at it from the lens of a boomer or from someone born on 3rd base and thinks they hit a triple.

Wrong on both counts. I started work as a janitor at the middle school for two hours a day after school when I was 14 or 15 making $2.65 an hour in the very early 80s. My parents were state employees (public school teacher and small department manager at state highway dept of a small state).

Any objective look at the data will give a much different perspective.

Having lived it for a few decades tells me more. Fewer teens and young adults work anything like my parents did or my generation did, both for money and to better ourselves. There are still some go-getters around, but on average the work ethic and dedication to improvement is sorely lacking. TANSTAAFL