Mixing Consoles money wasted , considered the "new" way of making the Mix ?

[r2d2]

Hi everybody,

just for ear some opinion about the "need" to have an analog  mixing console with :
preamp,  comp-lim-gate, and eq , on each channel
and its cost to buy it new or used ,

keeping in mind that :
the recording of most "important" solo or group tracks (voices , guitars , brass , strings,etc....)
are made with out of console rack devices (preamp , comp-lim-gate , eq)

as it deemed more appropriate or better ,

and later for the analog LR summ-mixing down ,
many tracks are processed with plug in inside pro tools , or other daw ,

except for the most "important" solo or group tracks
that are processed with outboard deemed more appropriate or better,
(manley, neve vintage, gml, api, millennia, chandler, thermionic, teletronix, urei,etc...)

and then the console is really only used for channel fader, some aux send, and the LR summ ,
and not always even the control room are used,

because a dedicated "high" quality control room unit like avocet or similar
replace that section of the console ,

and also the fact that the touchscreen daw remote control
It is going to replace the various dedicated hardware,


the "ideal" console will then be a hybrid desk with:

a center section for 32-36"touchscreen daw remote control ,
the quality analog LR summ master with fader and insert,
a quality control room section ,
8 bus faders with panpot ,mute, solo, and insert ,

and on the left and right upper sides dedicated  space for rackmount outboard , 19" and api 500 size modules,
and on the lower side next to arm rest  channel faders, each with panpot, mute, solo, and insert ,
and (the return of...) patch bay for setting up the various sound paths processing ,

forgot something ?

thanks in advance for all post

r

 

[ruffrecords]

forgot something ?

I apologise if this sounds  little cynical, but I never understand why people ask questions like this.

Before  anything else, you need three things for success:

1. Talent.
2. Luck
3. Money

Once you have these, the gear you use does not matter.

Without them, it does not matter what gear you use, you won't make good music.

At  a push, two out of three will suffice.

Cheers

Ian
Cheers

IAn

 

[r2d2]

I apologise if this sounds  little cynical, but I never understand why people ask questions like this.

Before  anything else, you need three things for success:

1. Talent.
2. Luck
3. Money

Once you have these, the gear you use does not matter.

Without them, it does not matter what gear you use, you won't make good music.

At  a push, two out of three will suffice.

Hi Ian
thanks for post

and your (good) opinion about get "succes"....

but the question is about the tech "factor" ,
ergonomics ,  optimization  of workstation position , etc...
obviously the money aspect is included

r

 

[JohnRoberts]

Technology has been evolving toward ITB mixing for decades.

I'm not sure console designers would call it wasted money, while the big analog desk market has been contracting for some time.

JR

 

[Rocinante]

I think you got it but many of us still like analog routing festures that desks provide. This includes having faders and buttons.
Now to make it so they are both able to control analog and digital and the routing in both realms and in an intuitive way is the key.

 

[Bowie]

but the question is about the tech "factor" ,
ergonomics ,  optimization  of workstation position , etc...
obviously the money aspect is included

r

If you're talking about designing boards for clients, I can't help.  But, as an audio engineer I find that the ideal console depends on the individual and their workflow.  Find what works for you.  I find myself doing 90% of my fader and button movements on mouse, despite coming up "old-school". 

 

[r2d2]

Thanks to all for post ,

i also spoken about with some other guy that work as sound engineer (studio and live) and or own a personal "advanced" rig

all think that when tracking or mixing better have much controls as possible under hands , near arms lenght ,

daw remote control , control room , outboards , analog summ unit , etc...

and about analog summ ,
if channel faders with:
panpot ,
on-off  insert switch ,
mute ,
solo ,
and also a meterled at the side of fader ,
are included
so much better ,

about fader that control analog audio level and daw "soft" fader, they said  it would be great but not essential ,

and also the "modularity" spaces for analog outboard that allowing a custom configuration
is a good thing .

more post about are welcome
r

 

[Di_Sousa]

Hi,
I think you're reasoning is right but as it has been said by Bowie it's really a matter of taste and individual preferences in workflow.

I like to mix a record only with a computer, a simple monitoring controller and a mouse, no complains on my part.

But my preferred mixing setup is:
-simple monitoring controller for 2 speaker systems and headphones out
- small 8 channel DAW controller with fader and solo/mute
- for plugins I still prefer the mouse because plugins are so different of each other (fortunately) that it's not easy and trouble-free to try to use an external plugin daw controller with different plugins brands and model
- for a desk, just line in with insert , nice sounding Semi-parametric EQ (for full parametric and cirurgical I prefer the plugin EQ options) like Neve 1084 or API 550B or Helios 69 , going to solo and mute buttons, 3 Aux Pre/Post, Pan Pot and  Fader, after that a nice summing Amp, going into a Nice Stereo EQ and a Bus compressor
- desk is only 12 to 16 channels
I like to send everything in groups from protools to the desk with the faders at the zero position, I prepare everything in protools so the mix already sound good when leaving the box and hitting the desk with faders at unity.
The desk is used for the final summing, for some EQ touches , to use the faders for some small organic fader ridings during the mixdown.  All the bigger fader movements are automated in protools is easier.
for example
from protools to the console
1-2 Drums
3 Percussion
4 Bass
5-6 Guitar
7-8 Keyboards
9-10 Backing vocals
11 Lead vocal
12 -13 FX protools
14,15,16 Analog FX Returns

This is what I like and what works for me, might not be really useful to other people.
But if I only have a computer to Mix I never feel that I'm less capable of achieving the same level of quality.
The only things that is just really important to me is having a good sounding control room and my set of Speakers so that I know what I'm listening and make decisions, I need to be able to trust the sound thats coming out of the speakers otherwise I'm lost and I will not make any good sounding record even with the most expensive pieces of equipment in front of me.
So Personally I dont care care if nowadays I have a console or not, if I have a vintage fairchild or the bombfactory fairchild emulation, couldn't care less, the only thing I really care is Monitoring!

Tchad Blake used to have really nice analog equipment, he mixed in some of the best studios in the world with amazing analog consoles. Nowadays he just mixes everything in the box, he even sold his Icon controller because it was just a giant and expensive mouse, and his Mixes continue to sound better and better.

 

[r2d2]

..........has been said by Bowie it's really a matter of taste and individual preferences in workflow.......

Individual ... , subjective ..... , this is why anybody like different music type ..... the rest apart...

.......... The only things that is just really important to me is having a good sounding control room and my set of Speakers so that I know what I'm listening and make decisions, I need to be able to trust the sound thats coming out of the speakers otherwise I'm lost and I will not make any good sounding record even with the most expensive pieces of equipment in front of me.
So Personally I dont care care if nowadays I have a console or not, if I have a vintage fairchild or the bombfactory fairchild emulation, couldn't care less, the only thing I really care is Monitoring!

yess , fully agree !
how do you control something that you do not ear ?

too many bad quality speakers around .... , advertised as "pro-fessional" (...pro junk?...)

.......... Tchad Blake used to have really nice analog equipment, he mixed in some of the best studios in the world with amazing analog consoles. Nowadays he just mixes everything in the box, he even sold his Icon controller because it was just a giant and expensive mouse, and his Mixes continue to sound better and better.

..... the difference between much and less  talent guy.... (dna....)

but use a plug in eq without some knob (remote control)
is so terrible (i.m.h.o.) .... for shure Tchad Blake have tons of presets ready to patch....

i remember some word  from Bob Clearmountain like :
you cannot get a hit song with top sound  from a piece of sh.......

....in peace we trust
r.

 

[Pip]

Are you nervous about getting rid of your console......Are you feeling inadequate because you don't have a console? Just asking in a rather confrontational way I admit. It was for dramatic effect please do not take it personally!

It really comes down to what you like and or what makes you feel comfortable. I am an old dude who remembers when he bought his first piece of sampling hardware for his Atari. It was made by a company called Hippo. It was 1980. I have embraced digital since it first dawned on the horizon and I love it. I am also an analogue  gear whore! Why? Because I love it!

I own two consoles and one is for sale. I like the way a console lays everything out  when tracking and then I tend to mix ITB these days with Cubase. I have noticed that for the work I do and the console I have I have more headroom and can play games with overdriving inputs and what have you. But again this is a preference and I am not doing Classical or Jazz work.

All this having been said I have never let gear or lack there of stop me from making the best recording this recordist can achieve
with what is available. Why?! Because it means nothing, no amount of gear or lack there of can make a crappy performance of a crappy idea done in a crappy way good you can not fix bad. Recording is purely, IMO, the personification of Zen and the Art of the Happy Accident!

 

[bluebird]

I think this is a really good option for being able to mix in the box and use outboard gear at the same time.
Mix it with automated faders and A LOT of people will be happy.

http://www.greinerengineering.com/sum-mation.html


Hmm I just read the "NEWS" page on the website and it seems they are not going to be making this anymore? I guess it wasn't as good of an idea as I thought. Or they sold the design to a larger company?

 

[r2d2]

Good device ,
but vca (again) ?
no thanks !

peace
r.

 

[Matador]

I've been on both sides of this, and Bowie is right:  it's about work flow.

Some really talented folks who are recording multiple parts at the same time (a band, in a room, playing a song, I know, think of it!) who know what they are doing, essentially mixed 80% of the song on the way in.  Having many channels, each with their own independent channel strip, gives this kind of flexibility.

Many aren't doing it this way any longer:  people are recording essentially the raw mike, and doing very little processing on the way in.  24-bit lets us set a peak level of -16 dBFS at the input and never think about it again.  They may be only doing 4 channels at a time and adding each part separately, and punching in overdubs where needed on an individual basis as well.  This kind of work flow doesn't require 32 individual compressors and EQ's, just a few flavor options to be added later like seasoning in the stew.

I'm (still) a firm believer that 80-90% of the recorded sound is: the talent, in the room, and where the mike is placed.  Everything "after" that (from a signal chain perspective) is the last bit remaining.