{NOT!} Sorry my nonexsisting english.

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PRR

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
11,143
Location
Maine USA
> Sorry my nonexsisting english.

Don't apologize.

Nobody here should laugh at your writings. Many people here learned english as a second language, and must remember their early struggles with it. Most of us who learned english as babies should remember our ancestors who had to learn english.

English is a bastard language born in the mud of a little island at the edge of the world. There isn't any good reason for anybody outside London to speak english. Except a few hundred years ago, a few Englishmen expanded their business to all corners of the world. Tea, opium, tobacco, rum, cotton, slaves, sheep, and wood; in China, America, India, Australia, Africa. Anybody who wanted to make money learned to speak a little english. With all this money came machines and technology (steam engines, steel, electronics), so a lot of technical information is presented in english.

Remember that for some of this time, "Good People" did not use english. Around the King and Queen, you used French in public: French was a "good" language. (In private, many of the english monarchs used German, because half of them came from the German royalty.) In good schools, Latin was the "good" language. Only street-people and business traders used english, it was a "gutter language".

My own family, centuries ago, when the people around London spread their business to all of the island of England plus Scotland and Ireland, were beaten or put in prison for speaking Scots or Irish.

At the time the USA was founded, over half the people were German. However all the courts and cargo ships were run by Englishmen, so the Germans learned enough english to handle their legal and business affairs. Even when the US split from England we kept that english-speaking tradition. All the Germans and others used english either as a second language, or quit using their original language so they would fit in with everybody else.

India has 1,000 languages, some very different. But after the English ruled the country a while, a lot of Indians learned english. Both because it was the language of the Englishmen who ran the courts and trading ports, and because two Indians of different languages could work together in the english language.

We mostly speak english here for the same reason: of all the languages of the world, english is the most common shared language. Those of us who were forced to use english generations ago are now more comfortable in english than people who learned it more recently. But I know my great-great-grandfather had to learn english, without even forums like these for study, and surely his english was much worse than yours.

english is a bastard language with many roots and many conflicting "rules". It is such a mess that everywhere it goes, it changes. My American (US) english is different from what Queen Elizabeth and Tony Blair now use in England, and different from the english that our working-class English friends here speak (even ignoring their special slang). english is different in Canada, Australia, India. None of these are "wrong", because there is no authority to say what is "Right". We have dictionaries and grammar books, and some of them pretend to tell us what is "right", but they can only document how english is used by certain people. When I listen to the different flavors of english, from India or China, I note that it is different from how we talked in Missouri USA, but I don't think it is "wrong". english is a very dynamic language.

And before english, much of the world spoke Latin. Or Greek, Or Coptic. Fashions change. Maybe in another century, Estonia (which isn't any smaller than London once was) will expand their business and the whole world will learn Estonian.
 
Yesterday when I first found this site, I was utterly amazed at how many people are here from different countries. I personally found it awesome that people from Finland, Denmark, Brazil, and more can communicate on audio projects from around the world. A language just lets people communicate ideas, any more ideas the better as far as I'm concerned. After all, we can all understand schematics, like those Neumann ones silent:arts posted. Nice! :thumb:
 
A lot of insight there PRR.

And it's partly the American, Hindi, French, and god knows what else (audio geekspeak even) feeding back into English that keeps it changing - and flexible enough to be used by so many.

But I feel bound to tell you that Tony Blair's 'New Labour' abolished the working class. We're ALL middle class now....y'know. It's just expedient to know a little 'estuary English' so you can communicate with your 'daily'. Innit.
 
Eeh? Us Canajuns' have our own brand of english? What PRR said. Nobody should ever be afraid of posting because of their language skills. This forum is a learning tool, after all. If you can benefit your english skills by pursuing technical interests, so much the better. I believe all genuine people are welcome here.

It's kind of interesting that a technical forum can help promote world unity even if only in a small way. That's how world peace propagates.
Tremaitsya!
Bill
 
[quote author="PRR"]> Sorry my nonexsisting english.

Hi PRR
Thanks for this words because I am thinking about my bad english. However I make a mistake and use wrong words.
Duka from Montenegro
 
personally i'm happy if i can communicate, with who-ever by using whatever... :cool:

and as a very wise man (PRR) said: don't apologize!

Let's just help out whoever wants to build his own stuff in whatever accent, isn't that what keeps us united here?

and proof of Union doesn't have to be looked for very long ago!

t dB

PS this means, Lurkers, don't be shy to post when you consider your english sublevel.
we all like good valve and trafobuildedgear
:sam: :sam: :guinness:
 
I've gotten very good at understanding English from people who speak another languange as their first language. When speaking with others who's main language isn't English, I always keep in mind that I don't know Japanese, or Slovak, or whatever. My brother-in-law is from Pakistan, my sister-in-law is from Slovakia, my great grandparents on half of my mom's side were direct immigrants from Poland. My ex-girlfriends grandparents on one side were from Mexico. The tech at the studio I used to work at was Russian... It seems pretty hard to go through life in this world without becoming friends with/becoming entwined with people who's main language is not English.

So yeah...what PRR said...it doesn't matter, we follow what you're saying and if we don't, we'll ask...so communicate away!!!

Jimbo

:thumb:
 
> I don't remember anyone on the old TT ever said anything about people's languages.

Me neither. But I just get tired of seeing a readable post, with an apology for the english at the bottom. We aren't here to make fun of anybody's english. There is no reason to apologize.

(But now that I think about it: there may be a cultural issue. Americans rarely apologize for anything. Only when we are in the wrong AND need a favor from the person we apologize to. But in some Oriental cultures, excessive apology in advance is a way to show respect even in small things, and not apologizing is very rude. So is the american custom of not apologizing, but people expect Americans to be rude. Maybe a polite apology is a better custom for this global village to adopt.)

> I was utterly amazed at how many people are here from different countries.

Me too. Back around 1990, I was in forums that "could" be accessed from anywhere in the world. BUT the cost of making the connection (before the Internet) was VERY much higher for people outside the US/Canada. There were many members from England, and a few from other places. We had members from every continent except Antarctica. But really 95% were US/Canada, and 4% from England.

Then I come in places like this and find people from every land. Kev is from the other side of the Pacific, Jaakko from beyond the North Sea, etc. Also I'm seeing more people who may now be in "St. Louis, MO" but using names like "XaiuM" (Chinese?) which suggest they come as far from the east to reach Missouri as my own ancestors came west to Missouri from England. I love the diversity.

> brother-in-law is from Pakistan, my sister-in-law is from Slovakia, my great grandparents... immigrants from Poland. ...from Mexico. The tech ...Russian...

And you sign-on from Appleton Wisconsin, heartland of the USA, where ex-German farmers and their cows all speak english. The world gets smaller every day.

> more ideas the better as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, yes, yes.

> we can all understand schematics

But sometimes we need a few words with the schematics.

> I make a mistake and use wrong words.

Get used to it. Every word in english is stolen from a different language, and most of them were once "wrong" words that caught on and became "acceptable" or "proper" or "correct". As a result, english has an awful lot of words. We have many words for the same thing. We have some words that can mean many things. Even if you use english for many years, it is confusing.

Also of course we here use a lot of words you can't find in any dictionary. Like "toob" (tube). I didn't know what a "pre" was when I showed up.

If you can't think of the right word, use the wrong word and someone will figure it out. We need more than "capacitor, resistor and toob" but you don't need a "lot" of words to do business (or talk tech) in english. If you (or I) use the wrong word someone will ask "Do you mean...?" Like Jimbo says: "we follow what you're saying and if we don't, we'll ask...so communicate away!!!"
 
>Americans rarely apologize for anything. Only when we are in the wrong

Most Americans don't apologize at all... they do double-speak.

i.e. "I apologize that you are offended by my actions." or "I'm sorry you are an idiot" is NOT an apology.

"I apologize because what I did was wrong" is an apology.

ahhhh... unfortunately, the first one is rampant in our society today and the second one is almost never heard nowadays.
 
The international language of diplomacy is still French, I understand. For some reason even this appears to be eroding. I find it sad, since most things sound beautiful in French, (and slightly worrying in German!)

My mother speaks lord-alone-knows how many languages (well... she does teach modern languages) and from her fluency in Russian, French, Spanish and countless others, I shamefully picked up only French. It's handy, and I do at least love to learn parts of other languages and I find etymology fascinating.

I find that even the British (who are considered generally well-mannered here in my new home contry) are considered rather coarse and less well-mannered in otehr countries. -My first visit to Japan convinced me that everyone should me made to visit the place, to 'learn some real manners'!

The diversity here is wonderful. The difference in approaches is not always as totally different as some might imagine, but I find that people such as Igor (IJR), Jakob and Kev, with their enthusiasm, productivity and dedicated perseverance give the lie to the simple assumption that because most people here are from the USA, then the USA must be better at this Group DIY thing...

I'm personally looking forward to a get-together or two... it'll be a couple of years before my wife and I go back to visiting different countries, owing to our young son... but my wife's horizons have been broadened by our several unaccompanied trips around Europe thus far. What we see here is just a glimpse of the creativity in the world.

Keith
 
QUOTE............"Those of us who were forced to use english generations ago ......"



PRR, have you really been around THAT long?


:grin: :grin:
 
from Keith:

The international language of diplomacy is still French, I understand. For some reason even this appears to be eroding. I find it sad, since most things sound beautiful in French, (and slightly worrying in German!)

The French fear less influence of their language now the European Union is expanding. Just recently they even offered newcomers to the EU (the people working for the EU in Brussels) free language courses in nice pittoresque settings in the Provence.

Peter
 
[quote author="PRR"]> At the time the USA was founded, over half the people were German. However all the courts and cargo ships were run by Englishmen, so the Germans learned enough english to handle their legal and business affairs. Even when the US split from England we kept that english-speaking tradition. All the Germans and others used english either as a second language, or quit using their original language so they would fit in with everybody else. [/quote]

German-Americans were once described as "America's invisible ethnics" because a) they're the largest ethnic group in the county and b) they're so completely assimilated by now that they don't really have a distinct ethnic identity in the way that more recent groups of immigrants might. Also--and this is purely my own theory--since the world wars, there's been a huge incentive to assimilate. You can be sure that I won't be walking around with a "Kiss me, I'm German!" T-shirt next Von Steuben day ;)

I'm originally from a neighborhood (Ridgewood, Queens, NY) that had a very strong German identity just a generation ago. This dates back to the Revolutionary War, when Hessians were billeted there. I heard the language spoken on the street by the older residents, saw it on signs in shops and restaurants, and the principal industry in the area, for decades, was the brewing of beer. Thirty years later, most traces of this past life are gone. The German-Americans have all moved out to the Island or upstate, like my family did. Most of the businesses and restaurants have changed to reflect the current demographic of the neighborhood, which is hispanic and Polish. One thing that hasn't changed is that it's still a clean, quiet working-class neighborhood. The surnames and the accents change, but the process remains the same for everybody. I imagine that someday, the children of today's Ridgewood will move out to the suburbs like we did generations earlier, and they'll probably speak just about as much Spanish or Polish as I speak German--which is to say, pretty much none at all.
 
Guys, I really can't finde the words to show haw I'm proud to be here with you, my englisch is broken, and sometime I'm shy to post question or comment... I'm still learnig from you and not only electronics.
Mik from Italy

:sam:
 
[quote author="clintrubber"]The French fear less influence of their language now the European Union is expanding.[/quote]
...but the French are the only country which I can think of, that has an extremely powerful government organization (L'Acadamie Francaise) who are charged first and foremost with preventing the erosion of the French language!

For example, the 'importing' of words such as "le walkman" and "le Jumbo-Jet" annoyed them so greatly that they were renamed "Le Balladeur" (the Minstrel) or "Le Grand-Porteur" (the great carrier).

Just 2 weeks ago, I listened to the incomarable Alistair Cooke in a replayed interview from about 40 years ago. He was asked by a caller if he would agree that America is 'the great adulterer of culture and of the English Language'. -Alistair Cooke was a truly great man, and he generously replied that he disagreed, however he understood the temptation to focus on all that is sensational or tawdry. For him, the British fixation with the American molestation of the language was understandable in a similar way, but he pointed out that the caller probably used adopted American words without realising it. "Awful" is apparently a word of American origin. Also, why pick on America? he asked what the caller slept in, and was told 'Pyjamas'. -He pointed out that pyjamas is a word of Persian origin.

Alistair Cooke saw all that was good about America and loved it. He doubtless saw much that was bad about America and forgave it. -May I grow to be as wise!

Keith
 
I think the reason that English, in all its variations, has become the closest thing to a "universal" language is precisely because we don't have an Academie Francaise. English happily absorbs vocabulary from all over the world, and this process has been going on for a very long time. Even though our language is nominally descended from German, many more of our words come from Latin!
 
[quote author="NewYorkDave"]English happily absorbs vocabulary from all over the world[/quote]
...and -like German- we happily deploy portmanteau words for whatever purpose we feel needs them. -the irony here is that 'portmanteau' is of French origin!

George Orwell in 1984 wrote that Big Brother and 'the state' forced the people to speak a new language -"Newspeak"- so that their thoughts can better be guided and controlled. -If you control how a nation speaks, he wrote, you begin to control how they think. -I believe that the reverse is also has to be true. A country that thinks in a specific way will naturally develop words to express that process. The two facets of that phenomenon have led to different cultures and theire associated languages which have remined comparatively isolated for long periods developing self-reinforcing though processes and their associated means of expression.

Hmmm... getting dangeroously into teach-yourelf-psychobabble here...!

Anyhow, Mark Burnley has met my mum, and my dear old sainted mother just got back from New Zealand, by way of Thailand... Can't say she lets the grass grow under her feet!

Keith
 
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