NYD's passive EQ, ghetto edition

[dripelectronics]

sounds like a good time to consider the PCB route ,

getting it out there is the best idea.

as a professional hopi artist for my living , i compleatly understand

where your coming from , 'bitters' as they call them are always

trying to undermine your designs and your ability to make a living from them.

win through global saturation.

is it not possible to copyright your design ?

 

[Learner]

So members won't be able to freeload a certain combination of calculated component values, WHY NOT DO YOUR OWN CALCULATIONS???!!

There are countless tutorials on the net if you google "LC filter" or "passive filter" to get you started on the basic concepts, then there are online calculators which pumps out "DESIGNS" at a click of a button.

Why be restricted to certain inductor value, weight, price when you can "DESIGN" your own LC combination according to what you have access to and willing to spend??

Cloning circuits can be a rewarding experience for learning if you make the effort try to understand what it does(after learning the basics in EE), otherwise its nothing but a soldering/circuit trouble shooting exercise.

So why not customise a solution to your need by "DESIGNING" your own LC filters, the real hardwork is already done by someone else.....

LC Filter Design

Elsie (LC)

QuickFil

Filter Solutions

The educational encyclopedia

The above is just a SMALL fraction of what's available online but its a start, so may be its time people should find their own way and use this forum for assistance instead of freeloading??

Another useful link....
Resistor-Switch Networks for Audio Volume Control

With all the info on the net and download a verion of SPICE free, what else do you need??

 

[NewYorkDave]

Measured response curves of the prototype.

 

[Franklinmastering]

cant say i blame you. I am a lurker and have been for about a year and a half. I love this forum and am very greatful to all that contribute. I'm a mastering engineer outside Nashville, TN and i have not done that first diy project yet but cant wait to start one.

 

[Corvus]

[quote author="alk509"]
Oh, it's no joke: As I write this, there are 12 registered members and 21 unregistered guests browsing these fora...
[/quote]

That does not tell a lot, actually. I only sign in when I post something, because most of the time I just check what's up and signing in is not required.

The issue with intellectual property rights and violation thereof sure is an issue and the concern of NYD is real.

all the best,

martti.

 

[PRR]

Dave, I understand and respect, but face facts.

Schematics are worth as much as recipes. You can't eat schematics. To earn bread, you gotta bake bread. The baking costs much more than the recipe.

In today's electronics world, it isn't the design, it is the boxes. You need a pretty face, a nice spec-sheet, and distribution. Makkie or Beeringer announce a new product, Banjo Center orders a thousand and puts it out in the stores. NYD announces a product, Banjo Center never even reads the memo, Greg buys one kit and Al acts interested but never sends the check. The coils and caps are a small problem, the big problem is finding a way to convince enough people to buy your boxes that you can pay your rent. That's a rather different problem from design or repair, and one that few techs do well.

Look at the rich equipment merchants. Nothing exciting inside the box. But it is a good-looking box, it does the job, and at a price that musicians can afford. That means the profit is small, but by pushing truckloads to Banjo Centers they can sell in big volume and get good prices from fabricators.

Look at the respectable gear pimps. Nelson Pass has a deep understanding of BJT action, designed some good amps, which turned out could be mass-produced and copied by anybody. Patents? Look through the Sony and Sharp and Sanyo patents: a lot of them may be efforts to get the same effect as Pass's or other patents, without stepping on any Claims. So Nelson has moved to some quite wonky designs, very euphonic, too costly for the world to need more than one vendor (and he was there first). Nelson is also a very savvy salesman: he seems like a low-key geek, but he gets enough people to give him big checks that he can survive. Dan Kennedy, Jim Hagerman, Joe Malone: they found different price-volume-profit levels but they survive by good salesmanship. None of them are rich in money. Fun and satisfaction are a form of pay, but dealing with @sshole customers and apathetic suppliers is strong anti-pay.

When was the last time something really new was designed in analog audio? The SuperBal input? Lily-gilding the CMRR? UltraLinear?? We all stand on top of, not even Giants, but a pile of smart midgets. Oh, a few giants in narrow fields: JB Lansing could build a speaker (he couldn't run a business). Olson could do a mike, and was good at half-explaining all the basics. All that Neve stuff was old when he did it: his little genius was in using his ears and refining. Most "new" good ideas happen to several people at once: Dan Mayer published the complementary differential quad, but guys inside H-P also invented it at the same time but the company kept it quiet. I had an idea for an "improved" engine valve, but with "issues": recently some other guys had the same idea, changed enough to work fine, built demos, shopped it around to the engine makers, got mild interest but no takers. I now have an idea for a novel gain-cell, with issues; I expect I'll sit on it a while and see someone else run across it, develop and market it, and go broke.

It saddens me how much of the knowledge of the Dead Men has been lost. (Dan Hollihan says this about steam-heat systems.) Not the knowledge that made their companies rich (that was more sharp marketing and luck) but real basic stuff that gets lost in this plug-n-play world.

If someone wants to sell a new product, it isn't design costs that stop them; it is whether it can be built cheap enough and sold widely enough to be worth the effort of pushing it. New products need a LOT of pushing.

OTOH, there does seem to be some market in very ordinary designs, custom-made to a high standard of craftsmanship or style. Do a Fender amp really well, find a sucker to love it, you may be able to do better than break-even. People like Duncan and Hoffman (and of course Marshall!) started this way, even support others who want to follow that route. Guitarists can get very attached to, and invested in, their amps. The mass-produced amps won't be able to fill this niche. Stroke that need, find not-broke guitarists, there can be a precarious living.

 

[Corvus]

[quote author="TomWaterman"]Anyhoo, behringer (and others like them) will steal designs here or buy one of your new commercial units and steal it from there - they have no shame, and unless you can patent your designs etc there's little you can do to stop them I think.[/quote]

Patents help, but unless you have created something that truly is unique, your creation may not be patentable. Application of known design principles does not qualify. Once you've had your patent, the competitor may still steal your design and change it just enough to go around the part protected with the patent and you law suit is just money spent. It happened to me (in an another industry)

With all that said - if I'm planning to spend hundreds of hours and dollars on a DIY project, I try to play safely. I am willing to spend money on good components and tools to make sure the gadget works as planned. I am also willing to pay a reasonable fee for a proven circuit with application notes that make sure my effort is not wasted.

I would also be interested in buying the circuit boards, even if this may be against the principles of hard core DIY'ers. Buying PCB's with a licence to use the circuit for builiding that one unit would be acceptable for me at least.

peace,

martti.

 

[NewYorkDave]

Dave I luv ya
but I disagree

This is DIY and these pros and cons haven't changed and never will

Guys, maybe a little background will help you to understand.

I have a good job that pays well, but my financial burdens are such that I live from paycheck to paycheck, barely making ends meet most of the time. I took an unexpected hit in the wallet this week and at the moment, my bank account is empty, I have thirty dollars cash in my pocket and I'm wondering how I'm going to get through the week. I don't get paid again till Feb. 3rd.

I thought about all the time and effort I've put into the DIY "hobby" and it finally dawned on me that if I redirected at least some of that effort into developing a possible source of second income, instead of just doing all the work pro-bono, then maybe life wouldn't have to be so stressful. Developing/modifying/fixing electronic circuits is a substantial part of what I do in my "day job", so it's a natural extension into a moonlighting gig as well--and more enjoyable and fulfilling than the day gig, to boot.

A lot of the stuff I've posted here is nothing special from a commercial standpoint, but a couple of things (particularly the EQ, as Paul S. points out) might actually succeed as a product on a modest "boutique"-type scale. Even if I only built a couple of units per month, that's still a few hundred bucks in my pocket that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

So, how do you think I'd feel if I didn't do that, left the circuit hanging out for the world to see, and then found out that some boutique startup was selling a clone? Or some Chinese ripoff house stuck the EQ circuit between a couple of IC op-amps to create the "Passivizer Pro?" (Hey, it would still be a passive EQ by a strict definition, just with amplifiers on both ends of it :wink. I'd feel like a dupe, wouldn't I? And my options for recourse would be few to none, especially if the offender were overseas.

Yes, the "Dramastic affair" did get the gears turning in my mind. It reminded me that I need to temper my sometimes-naive belief in the basic goodwill of most of my brother and sister enthusiasts with the fact that there are some scumbag pigs out there who have no ethics at all. And on the internet, you never really know who's in the room while you're talking to your friends.

So, go ahead and pass judgement if you like, spout platitudes about the free and open exchange of information and ideas in the DIY community... Whatever. I appreciate the words of support and the expressions of appreciation--and it's gratifying to me to know that I've helped some along the path--but none of those things will pay my rent. I need to find a good balance between helping others and helping myself.

EDIT: Regarding patents (not that I think any of my stuff is novel enough to patent, anyway!), they only do you some good in countries that respect that sort of thing. China, for example, doesn't give a rat's ass about our patents, intellectual property laws, etc.

 

[PRR]

Lurking

In forums, as in any organization, 10% of people do 90% of the work. If you work in a big office, you know exactly what I mean.

This is particularly true for these conversations, which happen at a very high (or low) level. Not everybody can add information. Those who can often find that someone else added it first.

They also serve who post dumb questions. If not for dumb questions, what would provoke the lectures and essays? Even here, a smart and patient lurker will sometimes find his particular dumb question asked and answered.

It takes a special kind of brass balls to post in public on a sharp forum. There is a fear of saying something stupid and being giggled at. Sure we try to be kind to each other, this isn't DIYaudio, but still a mis-step stings. It really can take a shy person years to get over that and just keep putting foot in mouth.

Being a "member" ain't nothing special. You can post, but if you don't find a place to add something, no loss. Thread notification, maybe PM, big deal. Many busy members son't even bother to log-in every time. There is no membership test: nothing to stop a manufacturer's spy from registering with a bellsouth.com email address. And of course we LIKE many manufacturers: Dan and Joe and John and Jakob... who wants to lock-out these true experts? I do NOT think you can draw a line around a "closed forum". Jerks would still get in, gurus might not. That's just a feel-good measure.

Back in the day when online cost money, forum operators said "bless the lurkers, they pay the rent". Traffic in most forums is 90% people who never post. When we paid a per-minute fee, that did pay the rent. Costs have dropped, not to zero, but so low we can't collect a user-fee: we need a non-broke Patron, and we found Prodigy-Pro. When boss Chae wonders why Ethan wants new computers, he looks at the company sales and general data-racket, but also at the many thousands of page-hits on the company logo top-left of every page. Many of us ignore it, but Chae sells good boxes, and just a few of those sales can justify keeping this server plugged-in.

 

[underthebigtree]

A lot of the stuff I've posted here is nothing special from a commercial standpoint, but a couple of things (particularly the EQ, as Paul S. points out) might actually succeed as a product on a modest "boutique"-type scale. Even if I only built a couple of units per month, that's still a few hundred bucks in my pocket that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

NYD, I'm sure you've thought of this, but here is my $.02 on the matter:

Rather than going through the significant out of pocket expense to get a product started, particularly when finances are tight, how about selling your labor? Moonlighting by taking on repairs on your bench, acting as a consultant to a pro audio manufacturer, maybe even something as big as going in on a partnership with a front end guy - your excellent design, someone else's capital and marketing savvy.

In any of those scenarios, your out of pocket costs are zero to very low relative to your profit. There is another member of this board who I am currently hiring to fix some dead cards for my Ampex MM-1200. Ollie is currently refurbing my V72's. In both cases, I could try to do the work myself, but they know so much more than me, that I can stick to my comfort zone in building my Gyraf Pultecs and homebrew LA-2A's. Everybody wins.

I'll bet there are loads of other folks around here who could use some help with some broken piece of gear, and who would be willing to pay you a fair market rate for your wealth of knowledge in fixing it. And I'm positive that is the case over at TapeOp. Maybe hang a virtual shingle advertising your services. I'll betcha that would bring cash flow quicker than working on packaging your designs in a box or kit.

Whatever you do, all the best, and thanks for teaching me so much. I doubt there is a reader of this board who doesn't know what an endless struggle it is to make a buck in this world.


:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

 

[Kev]

[quote author="NewYorkDave"] ... So, go ahead and pass judgement if you like, ... [/quote]
no judgement from me Dave

seriously, I do understand and have been privileged to talk to a few very smart people that work for themselves and some that work for the man
and have heard many alternate views

Back at at Tech Talk I told the story of one of our projects going out to a PCB Manufacturer and in less than one month it was coming in through the front door in the hands of a salesman trying to sell it to us.
We did point out that it was only version 1 and had a couple of errors on it.
We suggested that IF they were to rip off our design then it would be wise to rip-off the working model and not the prototype.
The PCB still had my bosses personal logo on it ... :shock:
We then showed him the finished fully working model.

I really do understand.

A bloke's gotta do, what a bloke's gotta do.

I guess the only platitudes I have to spout may be that,
" What's Dave's best project ? "
:green:
" His next project will be the best ever "

I hope it can make a difference to that back account.
:thumb:

it's all good

 

[pstamler]

Dave, here's a thought that might get you a bit of additional cash coming in without a lot of cash outlay: Make and sell circuit boards for the One-Bottle Preamp.

It's a simple feedback pair circuit with a dual triode furnishing the active devices, which means it's adaptable to many other circuits. To wit: the Dynaco PAS design, the Univ*rsal 610 (see Dynaco output stage), the M*nley mic pre, and lots of other stuff. In short, it's a near-generic circuit design, one of the applications of which is the elegant one you did with the 12AV7. It's also usable with many other dual triodes, especially if you use a 6.3V filament supply and include jumpers for things like 6FQ7s or 6DJ8s. Leave all kinds of pads on the board so people can connect stuff outboard, particularly in the feedback circuit. Include a one-page instruction sheet with it to tell folks some possible applications.

So you put it on sale in the Black Market, but you also advertise it (with small ads, classified) in audioXpress and whatever other DIY publications are out there. And you put in fine print, "Please allow 6 weeks for shipping." Wait until you get your first orders; use the first batch of checks to pay for making the boards; sell for something like 2x your wholesale cost, and make sure the cost of the ads is included in that cost. Your first batch of boards should bring in enough to pay for the second set of boards and still break even; the second set of boards is gravy. If you're successful, do a board for power supply.

Hell, put me down for four of them.

Peace,
Paul

 

[pstamler]

Dave, here's a thought that might get you a bit of additional cash coming in without a lot of cash outlay: Make and sell circuit boards for the One-Bottle Preamp.

It's a simple feedback pair circuit with a dual triode furnishing the active devices, which means it's adaptable to many other circuits. To wit: the Dynaco PAS design, the Univ*rsal 610 (see Dynaco output stage), the M*nley mic pre, and lots of other stuff. In short, it's a near-generic circuit design, one of the applications of which is the elegant one you did with the 12AV7. It's also usable with many other dual triodes, especially if you use a 6.3V filament supply and include jumpers for things like 6FQ7s or 6DJ8s. Leave all kinds of pads on the board so people can connect stuff outboard, particularly in the feedback circuit. Include a one-page instruction sheet with it to tell folks some possible applications.

So you put it on sale in the Black Market, but you also advertise it (with small ads, classified) in audioXpress and whatever other DIY publications are out there. And you put in fine print, "Please allow 6 weeks for shipping." Wait until you get your first orders; use the first batch of checks to pay for making the boards; sell for something like 2x your wholesale cost, and make sure the cost of the ads is included in that cost. Your first batch of boards should bring in enough to pay for the second set of boards and still break even; the second set of boards is gravy. If you're successful, do a board for power supply.

Hell, put me down for four of them.

Peace,
Paul

 

[AMZ-FX]

So, go ahead and pass judgement if you like, spout platitudes about the free and open exchange of information and ideas in the DIY community...

In my experience, the people who squeal the most about free exchange are the people who never contribute a single idea to the mix. Exchange of info has to be a 2-way street with both give and take, and not just "gimme-gimme I deserve everything for free". :grin:

how do you think I'd feel if I didn't do that, left the circuit hanging out for the world to see, and then found out that some boutique startup was selling a clone?

This happens much more often than you think in the guitar stompbox market... it's not paranoia. For example, there is a simple but effective pedal design on my web site that has a big disclaimer about commercial use on it and it is being used in at least 2 commercial stompboxes that I know about, and probably some that I don't.

I happened to mention on one of the pedal forums that a certain builder was using my design in his product and linked to my schematic for anyone who wanted to build their own for personal use, but then got blasted on the forum by someone who claimed I was hijacking the thread about this guy's product and cutting into his business! Huh? I'm getting called names because someone else is copying my work??? WTF?

99%+ of the people interested in audio DIY are really great folks, but the remainder are enough to get you depressed sometimes...

Rock on, Dave.

 

[Bauman]

Dave,

Your EQ looks very good, I want to put one togheter for me one day.

I respect your decision, wanna thanks for all the designs and comments on forum. I learn a lot from you and the guys (cant name everybody).

If you feel you want/need some profit from this design work, cool, nothing wrong.
Someone said `make boards of you work and sell it as kits` and I must say it is a good route. I believe ppl here that are interested on your circuits will fully support you and buy boards, me included.

They did it to me with the 312 boards, I have spend many many nights far from my kids working hard, prototyping, design boards, testing, testing, aswering lots of emails, and getting a little profit out of it, enough to keep my DIY going.
And you know what? The best thing is when some guy tell me he likes my work and that the gear he did with the baords is on the studio making some music. That alone feels so good, better than my pockets full of dollar bills... and I also run from paycheck to paycheck every month :thumb:

I hope we can keep the sharing going somehow, I just love this place.


many cheers!
FAbio

 

[Consul]

Well, darn it, I try to throw down the gauntlet, and it gets overlooked. :green:

I have nothing but the utmost respect for Mr. NewYorkDave, and I wish him well in his future prospects.

Dave, when I finally make it over to New York City, you and I are going out for a :guinness: or two. Okay? :thumb:

 

[analag]

It's a nice EQ, Dave it simulates better than The Pulptec, my modification has tube buffered in/out. My question is the inductors...where to get those values. Non Commercial use here...bro.

Analag

 

[Viitalahde]

[quote author="analag"]My question is the inductors...where to get those values.[/quote]

I used Wilcos in mine.

www.wilcocorp.com

 

[synthetic]

I agree with the kit idea. If you wanted to charge for a design and kit plus a reasonable amount of support I would be in.

 

[matta]

Hey Dave,

I agree with Paul, the One Bottle as kit or PCB sounds grand! It is simple and as long as people are careful a relatively easy project to put together and could put a few bucks in your pocket with minimal outlay to you, heck I'm not sure what your PCB designs kills are like but a can think of a few board designers here who I'm sure would help out.

If you did and could make it affordable I'd take one or 2, that is a promise! (Affordable is like under $30 a PCB). I hope you do make some sort of kit or board, I'd love to build one.

Cheers

Matt