one step forward one step back.... (bad flat panel TV sound).

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Yup quality improvements are always a double edged sword... Just like I can longer tolerate cheap beer... lousy coffee, etc.

I can't quite put my finger on everything thats wrong about the built in speakers. Even the built-in GEQ can't make a dent in the crappification going on.

[edit] I tried again with the internal EQ... with the 1kHz pegged for full cut, 150 Hz and 10kHz pegged full boost, it is less objectionable for simple speech...The nasal sound was from a huge response peak somewhere near 1kHz . I don't know how they could ignore that during the design.  [/edit]

JR

PS: May need to upgrade to the HD satellite feed, only $10/mo.
 
After working for a movie channel mixing mostly trailers,  I went out and bought a Yamaha receiver with decoder built in and auto eq alignment.  I then used my ADS speakers with Braun for surrounds and a B& W Center channel under the 55" plasma.  I also subscribed to the HD Cable Decoder so HDMI runs to the Yamaha Receiver. 

The Yamaha receiver will auto cal ,equalize and balance the mismatched speakers producing the 5.1 sound field at the listening position by setting the included mic up to at the listening position or where you sit to watch TV.    I also had a powered subwoofer I added (again that was a speaker relic from previous purchases). 

This gave me very good sounding 5.1 listening system.  The System is stellar sounding and movies with Dolby digital are exciting to listen to.  Besides the TV the only investment was for the Receiver that was $450 from Costco. 

My take on things are that the center channel is very important and depends on the distance that you set in front of your TV.  If you are within 6 to 8 feet then soft domes are nice but if you are say 12 to 15 feet back then you may want to have a compression horn driver/speaker with a high Q, so as to direct  clarity of  the sound dialog further into the listening position.   

Those plastic crap speakers from best buy have such a low Q that clarity is lost after just a few feet. 

Its time to repurpose the speakers from your stereo systems of the past and get an auto calibrating Receiver.  Then you just plug in the HDMI from the cable box or digital optical from the TV and the audio is great for $500 investment.  Netflix works great and I'm stunned to hear the opening music on House of Cards.  What a great production.  We spend a thousand on building some vintage DIY piece so why not DIY from old speakers with 1 modern receiver purchase.   

By the way I think CBS national programs have the best 5.1 mixing and on air sound but there are other programs that sound very good as well and things are really well mixed for movies if you have an HD cable box  for your tv.  The Bomb scene in the Book Thief movie is amazing with a simple powered subwoofer purchase back in the 90's.    It would be hard to go back.  Calibration is painless. 

One more option is to hook up a set of bluetooth headphones to your system.  Might work for people who have lost some hearing and need help with the sound.

Just some thoughts.
 
I barely understand the point of 5.1 in movies - so little of the potential is ever used and center speaker pretty much does everything. But for any normal house no matter the size they are interior design pollution and look and function bad. A major area of the room is dedicated and shaped to this unholy altar of technology.

There is exactly one person who gets the full experience in any room with 5.1. The rest is listening to a skewed combination of surround effect artifacts.
 
I simply run the digital out with a glass fibre into my DAC connected to my 2.0 system which consists of a Hypex UDC 400 amp and 2 ancient B&W 80-II speakers.
Happy camper here!

Willem.
 
The interesting thing about these auto cal receivers are they not only compensate for level between speakers but also time arrival.  When speakers are placed in odd positions , the time arrival is compensated which helps the image. 

We have a family room with the tv in the corner of a long rectangle.  We set  in an L shape couch at the opposite corner.  This is far from ideal.  I had a 5.1 system in that room back in 2002.  And gave up on it in about 2004 and went back to 2.0  speakers.  It was so hard to get calibrated and I did not have a decoder in my old receiver for the broadcast so DVD's were all I had for 5.1 program.    This Auto Cal receiver changed everything.  It's not that its a perfect listening position as much as it is the auto cal fixed a multitude of acoustic problems.   

I installed the system mostly to check my mixes on air at home.  Once it was setup It sounded way better than I expected.    I always run the receive decoder on pure decode so if the mix is 5.1 it decodes to 5.1.  If it is 2.0, it decodes to 2 speakers.    A lot of the problems stem from your receiver set to pro logic and now audio is thrown into all channels with a fake stereo field.  You should not have dialog coming out of your rear channels except for say ambience in a tavern or something.  The dialog stays focused to the screen.     

I'm sure some people would hate the look of my family room with all its speakers everywhere.  I'm lucky my wife loves movies.  She loves the sound.  The sound from the 55" flat screen would suck now after getting use to the calibrated 5.1 system.
   
 
To finish the upgrade I paid for a HD satellite feed and DVR receiver...  ;D

Speaking of surround sound I used to sell a kit decoder back in the 70s-80s. Pretty much a L-R+delay using BBD technology for analog delay. I still have one laying around and my computer speaker system is 4 discrete channel + a sub. So I could add some old school surround. My system was very similar to the original Dolby surround but I didn't use Dolby NR on the surround channel.  So I have a mono center channel (L+R) and a mono rear channel (L-R + delay). Back in the day I had a couple thrifty movie theater operators use my kit surround system to decode Dolby movie releases.

I may fire that up later today... see if it still works.  As I recall the L-R+delay didn't suck for stereo recordings too. I doubt it will do a lot for modern movies.
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I like the DVR. TV commercials really suck and are getting worse, the less people that have to watch them. What is it with those car insurance commercials, is that a millennial thing (crash your car get a newer one)?

The DVR turns watching TV into a participation sport as you manually FF through commercials. But better than before, a lot better. It also doesn't suck to be able to watch programs showing at the same time.

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I just got asked to review the TV monitor.... I think I may have to share my (low) opinion about the crap speakers.  :p

JR

 
Kingston said:
I barely understand the point of 5.1 in movies - so little of the potential is ever used and center speaker pretty much does everything.

Well, I don't think that's true.

I'll grant you that it depends on the film you're watching, but any well-mixed film, either originally in 5.1 or better yet, 7.1 or Atmos, will have content intelligently laid out between all channels. And in a sense the industry has become streamlined and "standardized" so that more and more films use it wisely, even if conservatively.

In my opinion it's really easy. Dialog comes mostly from the center channel, which is as it should be. The rest is spread out over the remaining four speaker channels and the LFE channel provides some nice low-end effects. Simply A/B-ing a film's stereo mix with its 5.1 mix and you should notice the difference between them. To me it's at worst subtle, and at best a tremendous difference. To me, it's like my whole room "collapses" to a flat 2D wall at the front when I turn 5.1 off. That's not to say that stereo mixes can't sound great, they can, but to say that their potential is never used or that the center does everything is in my experience not correct at all. Heck, if the center does everything, then you should be able to solo that channel and hear a film that is almost unchanged compared to having all channels on. But I'm telling you, the second you do you lose the sense of space, and you lose music, and you lose backgrounds etc.

That is of course not even talking about more aggressive panning where sources actually travel through space, from say the old Blade Runner or Apocalypse Now to Gravity or something similar.

Kingston said:
But for any normal house no matter the size they are interior design pollution and look and function bad. A major area of the room is dedicated and shaped to this unholy altar of technology.

There is exactly one person who gets the full experience in any room with 5.1. The rest is listening to a skewed combination of surround effect artifacts.

I agree. There are clear practical issues with surround sound. But the same is true for stereo. If you have a wide enough tv/screen, and spread your L/R wide enough to the side of it, then when you sit off-center the dialog is going to sound like it's coming not from the mouth of the character from beside him/her. Same problem with a "phantom center" in stereo as is any thing spread out over the other four channels in 5.1.  But at least with 5.1 anyone at any place in the room will hear the voices come mostly from their mouths or very close to it. I'd say that's a benefit; the ability to anchor any sound "in the screen".

There are speaker systems though that don't look like crap, and I think it's a choice a person just has to make; better sound or better aesthetics. In addition to that, Dolby Atmos Home is popping up in the market, and the question is how far this will go. I could see an intelligent system in the future where a much greater number of smaller wireless satellites could be place around the room, and then wirelessly talk to the main unit which then allocates sound in a 3D space just as Atmos does. Sufficiently small speakers at a low enough price could make that a possibility actually.
 
I am old enough to remember when stereo came out, and there was some abuse. We called it ping-pong stereo, after a classic demonstration where a NYC TV station broadcast one side of a stereo feed and used an affiliated radio station to broadcast the other side. IIRC it was a Perry Como TV show.  Of course they showed a game of ping pong with the sound bouncing back and forth between TV and radio.

Then by the 60's there were psychedelic effects, and short lived discrete or matrixed 4 channel records (I wonder if the hipsters will rediscover them too.  :eek:

If there is lots of percussive information in side,surround channels (speech is pretty percussive) arrival time matters (that's why we delayed the rear speakers in old surround systems).

For now a new surround system is not on my bucket list (yet), but never say never.  Judging by the monitor I got for just over $200 the audio electronics is (should be) so much simpler (cheaper?). 

I just checked and 5.1 decoders for only $39. on ebay.....  hmmmm.

JR

 
JohnRoberts said:
I am old enough to remember when stereo came out, and there was some abuse. We called it ping-pong stereo, after a classic demonstration where a NYC TV station broadcast one side of a stereo feed and used an affiliated radio station to broadcast the other side. IIRC it was a Perry Como TV show.  Of course they showed a game of ping pong with the sound bouncing back and forth between TV and radio.

Then by the 60's there were psychedelic effects, and short lived discrete or matrixed 4 channel records (I wonder if the hipsters will rediscover them too.  :eek:

lol.... fun stuff. I recall some early music in 5.1 where the engineers/producers got crap from the artists because they applied a reasoning similar to that for film and put vocals only in the center, with not that much else around it. Well, with far less auto-tune at the time some artists got real upset when consumers soloed the center channel and heard the raw vocal....

JohnRoberts said:
If there is lots of percussive information in side,surround channels (speech is pretty percussive) arrival time matters (that's why we delayed the rear speakers in old surround systems).

For now a new surround system is not on my bucket list (yet), but never say never.  Judging by the monitor I got for just over $200 the audio electronics is (should be) so much simpler (cheaper?). 

I just checked and 5.1 decoders for only $39. on ebay.....  hmmmm.

JR

I bit the bullet a year and a half ago (or so) and got some cheap Equator D5s for work at home. I got a stereo pair, and then got three more for a 5.1, coupled with a cheap sub. The only thing that sucks is that now I'd really want a 7.1 system instead. Oh well....
 
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