Piano mics on a budget

[kags]

I have a friend who is a successful though not wealthy pianist. He is getting old (just survived quadruple bypass and a valve replacement) and has composed hundreds of piano pieces (jazz, pop, crossover) and we would like to start archiving his compositions. I've set him up with an audio interface and three channels of Focusrite ISA preamps, two for his grand piano and one for vocals. He has a very warm and in-tune grand piano in his lovely-sounding, carpeted den. He will be recording with the piano open only to the short stick, sometimes with him singing, sometimes only piano, and sometimes with a featured singer or horn player.

I record a lot of pianos using M149s, Royer 121/122, C12A, and the like, but he doesn't have that kind of budget. I'd rather not let him use his Sony electret camcorder mics, and he's willing to spend a modest amount on a pair of mics. I thought about some Rode M2s, but I'm not usually a fan of SDC on piano, except maybe DPA or B&Ks.

For under $600 per pair, what would you guys choose? I really wanna keep it in that price range, and I can't permanently loan him any of my mics that I would typically use on piano.

I look forward to your input!

Adan

 

[garp]

A pair of Bumblebees seems to fit in your budget, they will translate your piano and additional instruments very well.

 

[kags]

A pair of Bumblebees seems to fit in your budget, they will translate your piano and additional instruments very well.

I will check those out- I love ribbons, like the 121 on piano, but this piano will be in short stick so fig 8 might not be my first choice. I would consider those kits for other things, though.

 

[k brown]

When piano has to be on short stick, I've gotten the best results with SDCs taped to the lid, or suspended Earthworks PM40 PianoMic-style above the strings; closer to them than the lid (I built my own bar for this). Never for Classical, though. This is similar: https://pianomount.com/

Alternatively, something like the DPA magnetic mounts, but using more affordable mics; maybe a pair of Line Audio Omni1s http://www.lineaudio.se/Omni1.html). I bet you'd be surprised at the results of a pair of Omni1s inside the piano. The manual (attached) for the PianoMic system has great positioning recommendations. The main thing that makes the PianoMic sytem work so well is actually because the capsules of the mics it uses are so small; this makes them ultra-omnidirectional, for even pickup from all angles, which is vital with mics inside the instrument. The capsules used in the Omni1 are about the same size.

I think you'll find that with mics inside the piano, SDC omnis are the only thing that will produce a fairly 'honest' sound of the piano. If LDCs must be used, they work much better outside the open lid.

With ribbons outside the lid, it's worth trying with an absorptive baffle behind them, if the rear lobe pickup is bothersome. A couple layers of heavy Duvetyne works well (nappier side out); a foot or two behind.

 

[kags]

When piano has to be on short stick, I've gotten the best results with SDCs taped to the lid, or suspended Earthworks PM40 PianoMic-style above the strings; closer to them than the lid (I built my own bar for this). Never for Classical, though. This is similar: https://pianomount.com/

Alternatively, something like the DPA magnetic mounts, but using more affordable mics; maybe a pair of Line Audio Omni1s http://www.lineaudio.se/Omni1.html).

I think you'll find that with mics inside the piano, SDC omnis are the only thing that will produce a fairly 'honest' sound of the piano. If LDCs must be used, they work much better outside the open lid.

With ribbons outside the lid, it's worth trying with an absorptive baffle behind them, if the rear lobe pickup is bothersome. A couple layers of heavy Duvetyne works well (nappier side out); a foot or two behind.

I agree. I thought of taping SDCs to the lid to avoid comb filtering. I’ve used 414s in closed pianos to good effect, but those are out of this projects price range, so I’ll revisit the SDC idea.

I rarely use ribbons too far from the piano unless I have a really nice room and the music is appropriate. I like a pair of ribbons up close, in a kind of ORTF array a few inches above the hammers. That’s a great pop or jazz sound. Tight freq response but realistic presence and stereo width. For that setup I think of them as cardioid (helps my brain not feel guilty). Otherwise spaced pair of M149s is hard to beat.

 

[k brown]

I edited my post with some addtn'l info.

 

[k brown]

Even though a bit outside your stated budget, I've also had good results with a pair of ATM35s (predecessor of the ATM350) inside the piano, with their card capsules swapped for omnis.

You could probably get a used pair on ebay inside (just) your budget.

These Vtel table mics are a good source for the omni capsules for the ATM35/350.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=vtel+omni&_sacat=0&_sop=15

AT makes a magnet piano mount for the ATM350; doesn't work with the older ATM35, as it's clip is not removable.

______

The Line Audio Omni1s have flatter response, though (in fact dead-flat).

______

Probably the simplest and least expensive way to go would be a pair of Behringer B-5s with omni capsules (much better than the cardioid capsules), though more challenging to rig inside the instrument than Omni1s or the little ATs.

 

[kags]

I have some clamps with threaded mic stands that mount on the metal harp inside the piano. I used to have some DPA piano mics with magnets that were nice but the mics never had enough body for my taste. I’ll check the Behringers and I might pick up some Line mics because they seem to get a lot of love.

 

[k brown]

Famed Classical engineer Tony Faulkner has a strong preference for ribbons on piano, but he doesn't do jazz/pop/crossover, so always outside the piano.

His second choice is Neumann M 50s - we all have a pair of those, right?

 

[john12ax7]

If you like 414s and buying used is an option, you could find a pair of 214s within budget.

Audio Technica and Shure tend to be solid choices, though you might need to go used here too. AT4050 for LDC, AT4051/2/3 for SDC, and the various KSM series of Shure.

I do agree about ribbons sounding great on piano, maybe there are some budget options there.

 

[hkung]

+1 for Line Audio OM1's or CM4 for Cardioids. If you can get a hold of LOM Usis / Basic Ocho, alternatively MicBoosters Pluggys based on the same Primo EM272 capsule they also work great. These are all SDCs, around 100-150 Euro / USD per mic.

I prefer SDC Omni mics so that you can get close and crisp transients with lots of personality from the piano without proximity effect, but it all depends on what sound you're after. Since you mentioned youre not a fan of SDC I'd probably go for Rode NT1 (not A) or finding some used M Audio Novas perhaps?

 

[Jtrax2001]

I have a friend who is a successful though not wealthy pianist. He is getting old (just survived quadruple bypass and a valve replacement) and has composed hundreds of piano pieces (jazz, pop, crossover) and we would like to start archiving his compositions. I've set him up with an audio interface and three channels of Focusrite ISA preamps, two for his grand piano and one for vocals. He has a very warm and in-tune grand piano in his lovely-sounding, carpeted den. He will be recording with the piano open only to the short stick, sometimes with him singing, sometimes only piano, and sometimes with a featured singer or horn player.

I record a lot of pianos using M149s, Royer 121/122, C12A, and the like, but he doesn't have that kind of budget. I'd rather not let him use his Sony electret camcorder mics, and he's willing to spend a modest amount on a pair of mics. I thought about some Rode M2s, but I'm not usually a fan of SDC on piano, except maybe DPA or B&Ks.

For under $600 per pair, what would you guys choose? I really wanna keep it in that price range, and I can't permanently loan him any of my mics that I would typically use on piano.

I look forward to your input!

Adan

Line Audio CM4s are a great budget SDC option

 

[jeremynothman]

I've been using my Beyerdynamic MC930s in ORTF quite a bit in the well of Pianos on short stick and like them quite a bit. Obviously taste differs, but I can't really complain about this sound. Obviously if you're wanting more attack, maybe the position is not the best.

Is Short the choice because there's vocal at the same time?

 

[TLK]

As I have always heard... "Ask how to mic a piano and you will get a hundred opinions" Here's # 101
You cant go wrong with the Line Audio CM-4's. Nice wide cardioids.
As far as I know you must order them from European distributors www.lineaudio.se

If the material he's playing and what might be sung is appealing musically, no one will be concerned with the mics he used.
Any reasonable SDC that fits his budget will do just fine..

 

[mikepoole]

I have a friend who is a successful though not wealthy pianist. He is getting old (just survived quadruple bypass and a valve replacement) and has composed hundreds of piano pieces (jazz, pop, crossover) and we would like to start archiving his compositions. I've set him up with an audio interface and three channels of Focusrite ISA preamps, two for his grand piano and one for vocals. He has a very warm and in-tune grand piano in his lovely-sounding, carpeted den. He will be recording with the piano open only to the short stick, sometimes with him singing, sometimes only piano, and sometimes with a featured singer or horn player.

I record a lot of pianos using M149s, Royer 121/122, C12A, and the like, but he doesn't have that kind of budget. I'd rather not let him use his Sony electret camcorder mics, and he's willing to spend a modest amount on a pair of mics. I thought about some Rode M2s, but I'm not usually a fan of SDC on piano, except maybe DPA or B&Ks.

For under $600 per pair, what would you guys choose? I really wanna keep it in that price range, and I can't permanently loan him any of my mics that I would typically use on piano.

I look forward to your input!

Adan

Do not laugh- but for the price (sub $200/pr) , checking out a pair of Behringer B-5s with Omni Capsules would be advised....

mike

 

[k brown]

As I have always heard... "Ask how to mic a piano and you will get a hundred opinions" Here's # 101
You cant go wrong with the Line Audio CM-4's. Nice wide cardioids.
As far as I know you must order them from European distributors www.lineaudio.se

If the material he's playing and what might be sung is appealing musically, no one will be concerned with the mics he used.
Any reasonable SDC that fits his budget will do just fine..

Actually that link is not a "European Distributor", but Line Audio itself, which basically just Roger Jonsson and his wife, working from home!

 

[k brown]

Do not laugh- but for the price (sub $200/pr) , checking out a pair of Behringer B-5s with Omni Capsules would be advised....

mike

Already suggested in post #7.

For even less money, there's the omni-modded Takstar CM60/63 (aka Pronomic SCM1) that @kingkorg talks of in this thread: https://groupdiy.com/threads/diy-m50-capsule.73114/
If used inside the piano, I wouldn't do the rubber ball mentioned in the thread, just the omni conversion by plugging the capsule's rear holes (of the capsule itself, not the body's side vents).
In my own unscientific listening tests, I actually preferred them to the B-5's omni; a shade bass-heavy, though (when modded to omni).
https://www.amazon.com/TAKSTAR-Instrument-Microphone-Professional-Gold-Plated/dp/B0C58XZ9RS/ref=sr_1_5?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.IU5maeX4iqE3Gb4ElGY1QQ.aZGLmiaNlub6FiDhmL5JPNYwJ9U6Q30tmc1x6vVQM80&dib_tag=se&keywords=takstar+cm63&qid=1721582481&sr=8-5&th=1

When used as cardioid, I found them to sound a bit smoother (especially off-axis) with just two of the rear vent holes plugged; it's then closer to the sub-cardioid pattern of the Line Audio CM4. This was suggested by a well-know British Classical engineer, for the Rode NT5/55/6.

 

[Newmarket]

I'm no expert on this. But since I can't see it mentioned (?) - I'll throw in the idea of "Boundary Mics" mounted on the inside of the lid. Eg the famed Tandy PZM (likely modified for P48 and removal of the little transformer) or more contemporary types.

 

[k brown]

I'm no expert on this. But since I can't see it mentioned (?) - I'll throw in the idea of "Boundary Mics" mounted on the inside of the lid. Eg the famed Tandy PZM (likely modified for P48 and removal of the little transformer) or more contemporary types.

SDCs taped to the lid is the same thing, but much higher quality.

Like this little Schoeps gimcrack does:
https://schoeps.de/en/products/accessories/table-applications/on-the-table/blc.html

 

[hkung]

SDCs taped to the lid is the same thing, but much higher quality.

Like this little Schoeps gimcrack does:
https://schoeps.de/en/products/accessories/table-applications/on-the-table/blc.html

I never thought of this, I will try it at work tomorrow. They'd have to be omnis to mitigate proximity right? Or would you say cardiods work just as well?