Playing with discrete class-A opamps on the simulator

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Yeah, I realized that the slew rate was not "all that". My next iteration has a compensation C of 10pf in series with 470R. I don't know a rule of thumb for selecting these; I just tried different values in SPICE until I found something I liked. 220R in the emitters of Q1&2 seem to be a good compromise between slewrate and phase margin. Slew rate should be about 16V/uS. Gain-bandwidth product sims at about 18MHz.

Output device current will definitely have to be trimmed depending on the beta of the output transistors. The 2N4401 & 4403 I have seem to run about 300. This is just going to be a low-yield item for my own use so I don't mind the tweaking. My idiot purchasing manager is me :) It seems that a collector current of 20mA works well and the little trannys don't get hot.

Making Q4 current fixed isn't a bad idea. I was aiming for a value that gave an input bias current of Q1,Q2 of around 1.2uA. What are some other considerations in choosing input device current?

My first discrete project is going to be a moving-coil phono cartridge - to - line - level preamp so I can get out my turntable and transfer some records to CD.

MCamp10.jpg
 
I'm continuing to test and refine the opamp. Here's the latest iteration:

MCopamp1_1.jpg


The changes here are attempts to minimize noise, improve stability at different gains, make the output device current not drift so much, and allow it to work at different supply voltages.

More to come...
 
[quote author="Svart"]there's the problem right there.. all those BJT thingies..

hey wait it's 10:30.. time for another :guinness:

:thumb:[/quote]

But FETs frighten me so, and tubes burn my fingers. :wink:
 
Nice, Dan. I do see the similarities. I'm just taking other people's ideas and throwing them together with something other than the often-used complementary symmetry output circuit.

I'm hoping the current dividers on the bases of the output transistors, along with a bit of emitter degeneration, will stabilize the collector current through them.

On the previous iteration, the current would drift up - up - up but if I blew on it, the breeze would make the current go down again. I'm not trying to make a thermometer here.
 
> You guys are getting close to the opamp in the new EQ.

Nope. Magicchord's plan is better in some ways. Dan has the single-ended output, magicchord has truly push-pull output for twice the peak current at a given supply current.

As drawn, MC has lower input bias currents, Dan has somewhat lower noise resistance (MC: 240Ω, Dan: 140Ω).

And I know what the emitter network in MC's plan does, but I suspect that in 99% of chores it is just over-complication and lily-gilding. In this case it does suggest a better ratio of input current to noise voltage, but sometimes it isn't necessary to perfect both goals at once.

Dan can swing 10mA symmetrical peaks; MC can swing to 50mA peaks. (However MC has thermal bias drift issues, and does not yet understand the cause or cure. {There may be no good cure....})

Objections: MC will have some trouble with mirror-matching, Dan has proper emitter resistors. Dan's Q107 can be melted by a shorted output, but also Q106 can melt with vast overdrive (a modest collector resistor prevents that). I may be missing something, but MC's transistors look safe (except simple overheating of the outputs with heavy load). Also Dan's amp injects Q106 signal into ground: probably insignificant but with +/- supplies it is possible to avoid that completely.

MC needs 3 extra transistors, but for most purposes they can be $0.10 parts so who cares? However MC's plan is critical about Beta of the output devices and will probably need a trim, a major cost-factor in production (Dan's simple single-ended wins this point).

And anyway... how many different ways CAN you wire a decent op-amp? The paper on the old 990 covers most of the bases for designs that have good complementary PNP NPN (classic IC design without good PNP is very different). Oh, you can add or omit a complementary emitter follower output or use more exotic mirrors. The JLH output stage is one of the few I have not seen in "opamp" duty, which is one reason I laid it out for MC to try. But there are not that many ways to skin a cat so it comes out a good audio op-amp.
 
Yeah, I wondered if you'd see the internal flaw there PRR, it took me a bit to wonder why clipping it would sometimes smoke the emitter follower, and you're right, a simple resistor in the collector cures that.

I don't worry about shorted outputs, this amp never see's the outside world in this very simple form, always drives another internal stage.

Because this is in a circuit with seperate power distribution ground planes and signal reference ground planes, I don't consider the dumping to ground to be a major hindrance, but the increased dissapation in the follower and protection resistors is.

The output current can be boosted by changing the emitter resistor in the output stage current source. Once again, I know my load, so the 10ma is more than enough were this amp is dropped. It is boosted in other locations of the circuit. Different output transistor handle the increased dissipation.

A version with emtitter followers is used as the output stage, with significantly more current, and protection. But I like the simplicity, high loop gain, and sound of this amp. It's very smoooooth, I think largely due to the complete abscence of any output stage crossover issues.
 
[quote author="PRR"]...magicchord has truly push-pull output for twice the peak current at a given supply current.

Well, the JLH output isn't really push-pull, from what I've read; when the common-emitter half of the output goes into cutoff, the emitter follower half shuts down, too. It's more like a CE with a "dynamic" current-source load

As drawn, MC has lower input bias currents, Dan has somewhat lower noise resistance (MC: 240Ω, Dan: 140Ω).

I don't recall how to determine noise resistance. Is there a simple formula for someone who hates math? :grin:

And I know what the emitter network in MC's plan does, but I suspect that in 99% of chores it is just over-complication and lily-gilding. In this case it does suggest a better ratio of input current to noise voltage, but sometimes it isn't necessary to perfect both goals at once.

Well, the 10pF is probably overkill.

Dan can swing 10mA symmetrical peaks; MC can swing to 50mA peaks. (However MC has thermal bias drift issues, and does not yet understand the cause or cure. {There may be no good cure....})

Well, I hope to learn.

[/quote]
 
> it took me a bit to wonder why clipping it would sometimes smoke the emitter follower ... I don't worry about shorted outputs, this amp never see's the outside world

I've smoked a lot of those Q106 parts. Mostly when a speaker amp's outputs fail, and the drivers try to carry the load through a B-E junction.

And you don't need a shorted load to smoke a transistor. In something like your output stage, only with a resistor in place of the current-source. About 30mA 15V standing bias, 405mW dissipation. Under certain conditions a TO-5 transistor would die instantly. It was driving 10,000pFd (dummy 300-foot cable). Square-wave input, poof! The fast rise time emptied the 10,000pFd in a few nanoseconds, huge peak current, well over 1 Amp. So even if you don't drop screwdrivers, think what the worst-case capacitance and rise-time might be. Inside an EQ, it may be exactly knowable. And certainly 10mA peaks can be plenty: how many TL072 EQs are out there and not stinking too badly?
 
> Well, the JLH output isn't really push-pull, from what I've read; when the common-emitter half of the output goes into cutoff, the emitter follower half shuts down, too. It's more like a CE with a "dynamic" current-source load

That's one way of looking at it.

Don't confuse the JLH with the White Cathode Follower. Both are pretty-much limited to Class A: they won't go into symmetrical class B even for peaks. But the WCF actually drives one output device from the other; the JLH assigns that duty to a driver. The WCF can run about 90% of ideal Class A; I suspect a JLH could be fudged several percent past Class A.

But they are push-pull in the sense that the peak Class A output current is (almost) 2 times the idle current (Dan's scheme can only get 1X) and the even-order distortion is (mostly) cancelled (Dan's doesn't null output-stage even-order distortion).

Of course at line-level audio, power consumption should be a secondary issue. If good sound demands doubling the idle power, it is not impossibly expensive. And low-even-order distortion is not offensive, so the cancellation isn't always best for sound.
 
This amp is just one of 7 per channel in the EQ, so the power budget has been fairly closely adjusted.

I use this particular version as the input gain matching amplifier, it's fed from the input transformer, runs at unity or up to +20dB of gain and drives a moderate impedance following stage.

It'll drive it at full level (just below the clipping point) at 100Kc with slightly increasing distortion, which is good enough for me. The residual distortion is mostly 2nd, which is also fine with me...

The transformer starts on a downward slope at about 90Kc, so you can still hit it with a square wave, but not an infinitely fast one. I can probably generate faster edges internally by pushing this stage into clipping and then overdriving the following stages. But in bench tests of all the variables under these conditions, nothing dies.

Anyway, I should have been experienced enough to not miss the lack of current limiting in the emitter follower. D'oh.
 
> Dan, what does having the emitter follower in there do to benefit the circuit?

A "8-transistor" radio is obviously better and worth more than a "7-transistor" radio, right? (Leading to "8-transistor" radios with 5 working transistors, a half-dead tranny as diode, and 3 dead trannies just stuffed in to look good...)

Dan should speak to what he sees in it. But Q107 has Hie around 3Ω, base impedance maybe 600Ω, which if fed direct from the Q101 Q102 collectors would load them bad and give low voltage gain.

It also reduces Early Effect: non-infinite and non-linear "plate resistance" in a BJT. For loads over maybe 2K, Early would reduce and warp Q107's voltage gain.

It also isolates Miller effect, though in this case (as in many transistor opamps) we actually want extra Miller to pole-split and give a 1-pole response over most of the gain-bandwidth.

And if you omit Q106, you have a total current gain of just β^2. You can do simple audio chores well with two current-gain stages, but for more complex or precision work you pretty nearly always want three current-gain stages.

That thing you are working on also has three stages: you just arrange them different.

Good/bad-old 741 has 3/4 stages: input, Darlington volt-amp, and a couple emitter followers but one side is pretty lame (lateral PNP).

You can string up more stages, but you run into compensation trouble. Note that if all your transistors have (about) the same Ft, then total current gain WILL fall to zero (OK, unity) at Ft. So unless your load Z is higher than your source Z, the voltage gain must vanish there. Say you have Ft of 100MHz. Rig a low-gain input stage, a volt-amp, and a follower. Gain is 1-pole up to around 25MHz-50MHz where the input and buffer run out of steam. Make the volt-amp a Darlington, and you still get unity gain around 25MHz-50MHz but a 2-pole response below that, which is unstable. You can fix that with the compensation cap to give about the same 25MHz unity-gain, but β^2 of gain below 25MHZ/(β^2)= 1KHz. Which is great for DC and bass but may be odd in audio (rising error in treble).
 
I always learn from PRR, remember, I'm just a hacker...only older.

I look at it like this, the diff pair is working into current mirrors, which makes the collectors essentially infinitely high impedance. We need to tap some current off to make the next stage work, but the more taken, the less effectively the diff pair works, so the follower is pretty much the highest impedance input in a BJT (or most if not all devices) thing we can use to siphon off a bit.

This current does need to do some work to make the second (third) stage voltage gain stage work, so the current boost of the follower is also very desirable. The follower is also pretty fast, so it doesn't add appreciable delay to the mess.

I can't say I've gone off to study the Early effect, probably should.

I got here by f**king around a lot, after all.
 
> I can't say I've gone off to study the Early effect, probably should.

Nah. Fancy name for something you already know: even with current-source loads, the voltage gain of a transistor is never infinite. Or: a BJT has a "Amplification Factor" and a "Plate resistance".

In a 12AU7, if changing the grid-cathode voltage does a certain thing to the current, then changing the plate-cathode voltage 20 times more does the same thing to the current. Or if you force a constant current though, and change the G-K voltage 1V, the P-K voltage has to change 20 times more in the other direction. It has a Mu (amplification factor) of 20. The maximum voltage gain is 20. The plate resistance turns out to be 20 times the cathode impedance, which is 1/Gm.

A 12AX7 is the same except the factor is 100.

A pentode also has this, but the factor is 200-1,000 so in practice, you can not find a load high enough to reach the theoretical maximum gain (though AM radio IF tanks come close).

Also, in a 12AU7 the factor is pretty constant, 17 to 20, over nearly the full range of current it will work at. Down at a few microamps it falls off, but in audio we can't go there because of capacitive loading. In a pentode it varies considerably more, with current and also with minor variations of manufacture. That hardly matters because we can't "see" the amplification factor except with precision tests, it never affects practical work.

Same thing in BJTs and JFETs, at least above the "triode range" (0.2V on a BJT, 2-3V on a JFET). If you do precision tests at constant current, the gain is less than infinity.

A man named Early developed the theoretical explanation of why this happens. The electric field inside the device does something to the way the holes and electrons lay around. As far as I've ever been able to figure out, all this hole/electron BS is voodoo magic, of no use to us who stuff pre-made transistors together in various ways.

However, in BJT it is possible to get a good-enough current source and load-buffer to show the "amplification factor". As in your design: "the diff pair is working into current mirrors, which makes the collectors essentially infinitely high impedance". To a first approximation, and assuming lots of buffering, the stage voltage gain "should" be infinite. With real devices, Mu is 1000-2000 and this type scheme will show a voltage gain no higher than 300-1000 (because of three collector-base junctions on the node). The wild voltage swing on the collector makes the base junction bigger and smaller, counteracting the base drive voltage. It is like you have a 10 ohm resistor in series with the base, and a 10K resistor collector to base. The real base will see 1:1000 feedback from its collector.

In volt-amp stages, it helps to keep the base drive impedance very low (don't make the series base resistance any bigger than you can avoid). Q108 keeps Q107's base drive impedance low, so Q107 can maybe make a voltage gain of 500 (modified by the compensation cap). Q108 lives at a near constant voltage, so has little Early effect on its base current and on the input pair. (A Darlington for Q107 would be worse than your split-Darlington.)

In current-sources, Early effect means you may get 1.000mA at 1V, 1.010mA at 10V, 1.1mA at 100V. That isn't constant! It can be even worse with some topologies.

Cascoding isolates the working base from the working collector. The bottom base sees a collector stuck at a few volts, the top base sees the wildly swinging collector above it but is powerless to change the current it gets from the bottom device (actually its control is β times less, so it has little effect). If you need to get the MAX voltage gain from "a single stage", cascoding is needed all around the node. (Obvious way to go from a 8-tranny to a 12-tranny design and "feature"...)

Early effect seems to be non-linear: it isn't exactly 1000 but varies with voltage. If you cancel Gm variation with constant current, I think Early effect is one of the main causes of residual THD (junction capacitance also causes residual THD).

β times Early tells the maximum power gain of a BJT. If β is 100 and Early is 1000, then we have 100*1000= 100,000 or 50dB of power gain absolute max for a single transistor.

Classic broadcast amps have power gain of 40dB or 50dB, but we like to mis-match the input and outputs 10dB (2K load on a 200Ω source, etc) and a hard-worked BJT has THD around 26% so we want to throw a lot of gain into feedback to control THD.

So while you can make a 1-tranny buffer, or get a little gain for small signals, a phono preamp or broadcast-spec mike amp needs two transistors to "work", three to be good, and maybe 4 to be great. Some of these stages may want to be doubled: diff-in, push-pull out, so we wind up around 4 to 10 transistors in any gain block that does non-trivial work.

uA/LM741 is 6 transistors in 4 current-gain stages, plus more than that in support circuitry. (741's main audio flaws are slow PNPs and poor AB bias, not tranny-count.) The classic small-Langevin and Neve did mike-amps in 3 or 4 transistors but without diff or push-pull pairs. A big-Langevin used 8 transistors in 4 stages all push-pull. The Altec copy with 3 stages 6 transistors is not as highly regarded.

So if you really want to do your sums, you can take the gross box-level specs and estimate the number of transistors needed. (Note that an emitter follower has power gain more like 20dB, common-base about 30dB.) Line-amp is rated 50dB gain, but voltage-matched in and out. Gross power gain is 70dB. You could do this in one CE and one CC stage (a popular pair) but THD will be high unless signal is very small compared to supply power. Taking 20dB feedback in each transistor, you need 3 or 4 to reach the 70dB spec for the whole box. The THD is less with push-pull, but the transistors are doubled: when transistors cost money, the BBC and later Sir Rupert didn't do push-pull.
 
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