team politics talking points.

[hodad]

It is perhaps instructive how other media outlets have still not corrected their published misinformation that could clearly influence voters at the time.

Still waiting for Fox News to roll back claims of WMD in Iraq.

 

[iturnknobs]

Still waiting for Fox News to roll back claims of WMD in Iraq.

Sorta like this...
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...dows-january-6-texts-fox-news-anchors/621032/
Choosing not to denounce Republicans' behavior concerning this matter is complicit in treason.

Treasons Greetings 2021!

edit: But Hillary's emails!!! Don't forget to keep an eye out for the Durham Investigation...Benghazi...

HA!!!

 

[JohnRoberts]

"sticks and stones"...

Yes I am still following the Durham investigation, thanks for reminding us all. Igor Danchenko, charged with 5 counts of making false statements to the FBI, was back in court this week with his two new lawyers.

I am waiting for Maxwell trial to get interesting, I'm sure she has dirt on politicians from both parties. I don't expect Hillary to be involved but Bill was reportedly a frequent flyer on Lolita express. Reportedly Trump and some high level republicans were also associated with flight logs.

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

From Wikipedia:

Michael Flynn-
December 2017, Flynn formalized a deal with Special Counsel Robert Mueller to plead guilty to a felony count of "willfully and knowingly" making false statements to the FBI about the Kislyak communications, and agreed to cooperate with the Special Counsel's investigation.[26]

Roger Stone-
On January 25, 2019, Stone was arrested at his Fort Lauderdale, Florida, home in connection with Robert Mueller's Special Counsel investigation and charged in an indictment with witness tampering, obstructing an official proceeding, and five counts of making false statements.[31][32] In November 2019, a jury convicted him on all seven felony counts.[10][33][34]

These two "gems of society" were pardoned by Trump. They actually plead guilty. Stone, for doing the same thing as Danchenko, essentially. These two were either high level government actors or advisors. These people are now proven to be witnesses and/or participants of presentations on the how-to's of overturning the election results/will of the people. Not only is this not even apples and oranges compared to the Durham investigation, but those who cannot/will not see have outwardly stated that the Republic we grew up with is no longer to stand, regardless of the people's will.

 

[JohnRoberts]

From Wikipedia:

Michael Flynn-
December 2017, Flynn formalized a deal with Special Counsel Robert Mueller to plead guilty to a felony count of "willfully and knowingly" making false statements to the FBI about the Kislyak communications, and agreed to cooperate with the Special Counsel's investigation.[26]

Roger Stone-
On January 25, 2019, Stone was arrested at his Fort Lauderdale, Florida, home in connection with Robert Mueller's Special Counsel investigation and charged in an indictment with witness tampering, obstructing an official proceeding, and five counts of making false statements.[31][32] In November 2019, a jury convicted him on all seven felony counts.[10][33][34]

These two "gems of society" were pardoned by Trump. They actually plead guilty. Stone, for doing the same thing as Danchenko, essentially. These two were either high level government actors or advisors. These people are now proven to be witnesses and/or participants of presentations on the how-to's of overturning the election results/will of the people. Not only is this not even apples and oranges compared to the Durham investigation, but those who cannot/will not see have outwardly stated that the Republic we grew up with is no longer to stand, regardless of the people's will.

These charges were NOT for "essentially" the same thing and you should be smart enough to know that.

The Steele dossier was a political dirty trick on steroids, promoted by the Clinton campaign for political advantage, and embraced by the FBI and intelligence community. This rot goes deeper than the low level actors indicted so far, but Durham is building his case. You start at the bottom and build up, drip... drip.. drip....

AG Garland recently reiterated his intention to continue supporting the Durham investigation. There is a 5 year statute of limitations for some of the charges (like lying to congress), so some bad actors may dodge those bullets.

Merry Christmas, I hope Santa brings you something nice.

JR

 

[hodad]

The Steele dossier was a political dirty trick on steroids,

This is certainly what Trump wants everyone to believe, and I guess you're convinced. The problem here, as I've stated before, is all the corroborating words and deeds of Trump and those around him. What was up with their move to change the GOP platform on Ukraine? And the classic, "Russia, if you're listening..." And the sharing of poll data that Matador mentioned a while back? And Trump's very nonstandard, completely off-the-record meetings with Putin? And do we want to go back to all the money flowing to Trump's businesses from Russian kleptocrats? Oh, and the 20 million in dark money pumped into the NRA in 2016, almost certainly from the Russians?

There's plenty of reason to be suspicious of Trump's relationship with Russia beyond the Steele dossier. I don't know that it's all true (it was, as has been pointed out repeatedly, raw intelligence), but there are plenty of other reasons to be suspicious of Trump's relationship with Russia. As noted above.

Oh, yeah, the star witness's statement in the Sussman case actually contradicts said witness's prior statements. Not a whole lot to build a case on there, but I guess it's enough to keep the right wing conspiracy mill churning.

 

[iturnknobs]

Merry Christmas, I hope Santa brings you something nice.

JR

I don't believe in Santa Claus, but it would be nice if those on the right actually reported the news for their lemmings when significant events like overturning a free and fair election were actually discovered through subpoenas. I wonder why all Trump's buddies are being held in contempt of Congress...but the pee-pee tapes. Way to not even acknowledge what is actually going on in the news/world. We are doomed and on the path to a violent end for our democracy. Silence is cooperation.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I too worry about the republic but for different reasons than you.

We already had our civil war, I don't expect sentient people to repeat that kind of mistake.

JR

PS: Try to be less insulting to millions of people.

 

[iturnknobs]

PS: Try to be less insulting to millions of people.

Millions of people have often been not only wrong, but downright disrespectful of others unlike them.
See something, say something...or ignore and deny the literal attempt at the overthrowing of our country by a dictator supported by a minority. We are on our way....feel free to not acknowledge the "insurrection PowerPoint" yet again.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Godwin's law......

JR

 

[hodad]

Disregarding Godwin for a second: the hard truth is that Republicans, in pretty much every state where they have power, have been working overtime of late to disenfranchise as many black and brown voters (and liberal voters in general) as they possibly can. (You may not have noticed, since Mississippi has had discriminatory voting laws in place since shortly after Hiram Revels was elected.) Here in Georgia, the man who was the subject of Trump's ire (for refusing to break the law and illegally overturn Georgia's election) happily went along with moves by the legislature to restrict voting as well as stripping his own office of much of its power. Essentially, instead of breaking with Trump after he asked them to illegally usurp a free and fair election, they decided instead that they'd change the laws so that next time they'd be in a better position to overturn the will of the people in a more or less legal fashion.
If you, or millions of other Republicans, actually cared about the democratic principles that you all like to claim sole ownership of, you'd be furiously attacking the leaders of your own party. They are working as hard as they can to destroy American democracy, and if anyone on the right actually believed in it, they'd be doing their damnedest to deter their elected leaders from pursuing such ignoble ends.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Disregarding Godwin for a second: the hard truth is that Republicans, in pretty much every state where they have power, have been working overtime of late to disenfranchise as many black and brown voters (and liberal voters in general) as they possibly can. (You may not have noticed, since Mississippi has had discriminatory voting laws in place since shortly after Hiram Revels was elected.) Here in Georgia, the man who was the subject of Trump's ire (for refusing to break the law and illegally overturn Georgia's election) happily went along with moves by the legislature to restrict voting as well as stripping his own office of much of its power. Essentially, instead of breaking with Trump after he asked them to illegally usurp a free and fair election, they decided instead that they'd change the laws so that next time they'd be in a better position to overturn the will of the people in a more or less legal fashion.
If you, or millions of other Republicans, actually cared about the democratic principles that you all like to claim sole ownership of, you'd be furiously attacking the leaders of your own party. They are working as hard as they can to destroy American democracy, and if anyone on the right actually believed in it, they'd be doing their damnedest to deter their elected leaders from pursuing such ignoble ends.

The good news is that at least you are posting these partisan talking points in the "talking points" thread. I understand how if you believe that partisan dogma you should be angry.... but IMO it isn't remotely true, just politically crafted fiction to keep you and your team inflamed. There are mirror image talking points from the right saying that your team is trying to change the rules to make it easier to cheat in future elections. As I have shared before France outlawed mail in ballots years ago because of massive fraud. The best way to keep elections honest is to make it hard to cheat, not hard to vote.

I have seen a lot of bad (undemocratic) behavior from the swamp dwellers in DC and the common theme seems to be a thirst for power by hook or crook. Declining to reform immigration when they had the majority, refusing to close our southern border now is hard to explain as some sympathetic exercise. NYC is already trying to let non-citizens vote in local elections. They appear to be playing some long game trying to capture a new voting bloc.

I'm cool with non-citizens voting in local elections just their local elections, in their home countries, not in the USA.

JR

 

[Matador]

There's no need to "both sides" an issue when it's fairly easy to objectively measure outcomes.

A case in point: SB202 in Georgia severely limits early in-person voting. Guess the percentage of black voters impacted by this law as compared to their white peers?

On the flip side, an investigation of 12 Trump-challenged states found approximately 500 "possible" inconsistent ballots - meaning a signature irregularity, an address number not clear, etc. Out of approximately 30 million votes cast, even if all 500 we're fraudulent, would have flipped zero results. The emperor of election integrity still isn't wearing any clothes.

So one side can demonstrate harm, the other is scared of unicorns voting, and we're honestly going to "opinions vary" it?

 

[hodad]

The good news is that at least you are posting these partisan talking points in the "talking points" thread.

You're ignoring reality here by declaring it "partisan talking points." If you wish to debate the impact of the various election-related changes in Georgia, then let's do it. If you wish to debate the impact of the concerted efforts to oust minorities and Dems from local elections boards, that's great too. But you're not addressing what is actually happening--real events that are really happening--you're just pretending it's all made up by the crazy left.

I'd venture to say it's not I that's living in a fantasy land.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I will attempt a thoughtful response but doubt it will be received as intended. Our founders were some very smart people, surely smarter than me, and perhaps almost as smart as you guys. They crafted the electoral college to make close elections appear decisive so all voters would have confidence in the elections.

We all agree that that every citizen who wants to vote should be allowed to vote. We have long supported mail-in ballots for military serving out of the country, and for people with valid excuses. That said France experienced massive fraud and outlawed mail-in ballots years ago. It is important that we do not deny valid citizens their right to vote, and likewise that we all have faith that the vote process is honest. There is an old quote attributed to Stalin, "It doesn't matter how many vote, but who counts the votes". We can see multiple examples of questionable elections under authoritarian leaders around the world.

Ex President Trump is not helping his legacy by continuing to rant about election irregularities***. Our system is crafted to decisively stick a fork in election results and move on. All vote concerns should be addressed later and focussed on improving the integrity of future votes. The hyperbolic partisan biased viewpoint from the two sides amounts to one side accusing the other of denying valid voters, the other being suspicious of making it easier to control outcomes. The proposed federal election reform legislation is trying to bring voting under the federal government control which is in contradiction with the constitution that assigns that responsibility to the states.

Over the years we have seen the federal government trying to usurp more power from the states. This began with the 17th amendment (direct election of senators) and hasn't stopped since.

All DC politicians are nakedly pursuing more political power. This is not a republican/democrat thing, its a swamp thing. Don't hate the players hate the game.

JR

**** I still blame ex-president Trump for losing the senate due to his shenanigans in GA.

PS: I expected different talking points this week but am not dumb enough to go there and mention any others.

 

[hodad]

We all agree that that every citizen who wants to vote should be allowed to vote.

Perhaps you and Matador and I agree on that, but we are not "all." There are plenty of people in power in the GOP who have openly stated that discouraging turnout works in their favor. Many of the "reforms" passed in my state and others are intended to do just that. Despite your protestations about something that happened in France at some point in the past, you can't show me any evidence of widespread voter fraud in the US in 2020--it just wasn't there. And 2020 was possibly the most scrutinized election in US history. I'd say that new GOP voting restrictions were a solution in search of a problem, but there really was a problem--high voter turnout. That's a big problem for Republicans, and it cost them Georgia in the presidential, and it helped (along with pouty Trump) Georgia get 2 Dems in the Senate.
And what earthly purpose does it serve for Georgia to cede certain powers of the SOS to the state legislature? Oh, yeah, it makes it easier for Trump or someone like him to succeed in doing what he tried to do in 2020--use Republican state legislatures (which hold their large majorities via extreme gerrymandering, and thus are not in any way representative of the state's consituents) to overturn a presidential election. That is not doing squat to help democracy--in fact, it's doing quite the opposite.

Ex President Trump is not helping his legacy by continuing to rant about election irregularities***. Our system is crafted to decisively stick a fork in election results and move on.

Our system rests on norms much more than laws. And even many of the laws are not that well crafted, because most politicians followed the norms and there was no need to adjudicate certain things (the emoluments clause is a prime example.) Trump spent his entire time in office destroying norms and flouting toothless laws--everything from his abuse of executive privilege to hiding his taxes to contempt of Congress to his attempts to overturn the results of the presidential election. It was obvious from 2017 on that "norms" didn't mean a thing to Trump and his people. Democrats have put forth plans to make it harder to do what Trump tried to do in 2020--to codify the norms in order to make it substantially harder to overturn a presidential election.

The GOP, on the other hand, have done the exact opposite--they've changed laws so that it's easier to overturn an election. That is as anti-democratic and anti-American as just about anything I can think of. But the GOP knows it cannot maintain power in a democracy without attracting more voters. But the GOP does not want to change in order to attract those voters. So their only choice is to thwart the will of the people.

And if you actually looked at what's happening right here/right now instead of obsesssing about what happened in France once upon a time, you might be able to see that your beloved GOP is indeed busily destroying American democracy.

 

[JohnRoberts]

You are consistent with your one sidedness....

BTW we are a nation of laws, not "norms".

JR

 

[hodad]

BTW we are a nation of laws, not "norms".

JR

I guess you missed the point. Much of how we've grown to expect things to work in our govt., it turns out, is predicated on norms rather than laws. (At other times, the laws we have are simply not up to the task of making the more recalcitrant and mendacious among us pay for their crimes.) If you had been paying attention to Trump's presidency, you might have noticed all this. There were numerous times, from January 2021, that Trump did something that was not "how it's done" but was not illegal.

Yes, there are norms. Yes, they play a big role in how this country typically operates.

So, if someone violates norms, maybe there ought to be a law. That is what Dems want to address. There are aspects of the peaceful transition of power that don't necessarily rest in well-codified law, and Trump sought to take advantage of that. Now that we have had a president who has flouted the peaceful transition of power, it seems like maybe there ought to be a law, or that laws be better written to discourage wannabe tyrants from trying this on a semi-regular basis.

Of course, the other approach is to modify existing laws to make it easier for wannabe tyrants to succeed. That is the Republican way. That is what they did in my state this year. Unfortunately, the Republican way goes against the principles this nation was founded on. That really sucks for us as a country.

You can accuse me of one-sidedness, but right now one side is doing most of the really bad stuff. I do not for a second believe that Democrats are innocent, but at this point in time the GOP is far outperforming them in the dept. of anti-democratic atrocities. I am sorry that your one-sidedness renders you incapable of seeing that the party you so devoutly support is on the verge of destroying the nation you claim to love.

 

[JohnRoberts]

We all need to try to learn to deal with our personal biases... even I have some of my own.

My Dershowitz book"guilt by accusation" arrived today. I skipped ahead to the end and guess what? He's innocent.

It's only 150 pages, I can send it to you after I read it, but I have a few books in queue ahead of it, so that could take a while .

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

..feel free to not acknowledge the "insurrection PowerPoint" yet again.

...how it all started.