team politics talking points.

[boji]

Like when they put "under god" in the pledge of allegiance (which in itself is force fed patriotism) we were all required to say at the beginning of every school day.

When I was younger and rebellious, I too was generally dismissive of the idea that humans require worship to have meaning, and that a perfect, sacrificial, non-corporeal, and transcendent guide for humanity is not a biological necessity.
However what I did not wish to consider at the time was that the non-corporeal nature of the godhead is a miracle tool-- We learned to take the future greatest good, and anthropomorphize it! And that is partly why we put our hands on our hearts when we pledge something; it symbolizes that what we want for the future emerges immaterially from the core of our being, and is therefore the most true.

edited 3/21 for concision.

 

[JohnRoberts]

As compared to Putin calling jewish President Zellensky a "nazi"... IMO there are more important issues out there.

Your filter is stuck on identity politics. I am critical of Soros for all the damage his funding has created by helping to get radical progressive prosecutors into office where they exercise criminal privilege. I didn't even know his religion, I'll take your word for that, I am more interested in watching what he did and does.

My filter sees right and wrong, good and bad, not race, identity, etc.

I guess this passes for argument (vague charges of antisemitism) for the junior varsity debate team. Perhaps call out the real antisemitism in the world like nations trying to wipe Israel off the map. Perhaps this is just a weak attempt to use "rules for radicals" strategy, to try to put me on my defensive ( a swing and a miss).

JR

PS: My favorite Soros anecdote is how he lost $1B by shorting the stock market after ex-President Trump was elected. Apparently he really believed his side's own BS that much, but cut his personal losses after dropping a quick $1B. He would have lost even more if he stayed with that short trade longer.

 

[hodad]

MO there are more important issues out there.

The Antisemitism Lurking Behind George Soros Conspiracy Theories

You can express your contempt for Democrats a thousand different ways. You do not have to wade into the waters of antisemitism--intentionally or otherwise.

 

[JohnRoberts]

you are the one with distorted filters.

I will not take the bait (personal attack) again.

JR

 

[hodad]

A view from someone in Finland (posted on a left-leaning news site):

I understand you would like to see your heroic country as the navel of the world and as the main focus of any operation, but I am sorry to inform that, in this case, you are only cheap tools. You had to be weakened (and Britain manipulated to Brexit etc) in order to facilitate invasions to Ukraine, Belarussia and a list of other neighboring pieces of land in Putin’s future Menu.


So, as a KGB officer would plan, they came exactly from the opposite direction than where they were expected. They professionally built an operation web among the rural redneck cowboys, evangelical christians, the NRA, the most republican of all republicans, your law enforcement, some military people, big business etc etc. They popped up to the surface from within the “core americans”, but their long dive before that was planned and had started from the Kremlin’s operation board.

It's a thing, for sure, to be considered. All the dark money pumped into the NRA from Russia, the July 4 visit to Russia by Ron Johnson and other right-wing politicians, the fawning admiration of evangelicals for Putin's harsh stance toward the Russian LGBTQ community, etc. etc.

 

[boji]

What is your take on the value of the social commons, Hodad? Do you side with Matador, and believe consilience-seeking across the isle is a fool's errand? The reason I ask is because the frequency of posting implies not, yet the content...

 

[Matador]

Do you side with Matador, and believe consilience-seeking across the isle is a fool's errand?

I might argue with you if I even knew what that means...

I'm not sure how much "convergence" is possible when discussing what ultimately boils down to one's own "sincerely held beliefs". "Masks actually work, and here's the evidence" can never square with "masks are morally wrong". The fools errand is hoping people will hold their side to the same standard as they hold the other.

 

[hodad]

believe consilience-seeking across the isle is a fool's errand?

2 things (one of which Matador sort of addressed):
1. Do you ask this same question of the list's climate deniers and anti-vaxxers?
2. When the supporting "evidence" cited by the other side is imagined white-shaming, or imagined vote fraud, or imagined G5 chips in vaccines, where is the consilience? What does it mean for hard evidence to find common ground with fever dreams?

 

[iturnknobs]

I always thought I could "help" the "analytically capable" subset of society see things with logic. I believe Hodad feels the same way. I cannot understand how anyone is so "capable", yet we have vastly different opinions on political/social issues. I cannot understand how profit/benefit for some is ever beneficial overall. Then again, some don't care. That must be accepted and lessons must just be taught through receiving what one asks for. The world is a crazy place. I need to put my efforts in a more productive outlet (like finishing many projects)...and so I don't sound like Boji, I leave my mushroom infused chocolates in the freezer and my LSD in the cupboard.

...and to stay true to the forum thread...

If Bannon AND Giuliani had access to Hunter's laptop, as self-proclaimed by each, why is this, and why was this NOT ever major news? F'in RINO's.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Our filters/frames are revealed by how we describe each other, often using pejorative terms.

Try to be nicer....

JR

PS: I pretty much got acid out of my system 50 years ago....

 

[boji]

Matador: I could/should have said truth-seeking, but I've seen no olive branches here for some time. Disbeliefs feed most of the sincerity in the brewery's politicized threads.
On the mask example-- Neither opinion (masks work / masks wrong) excludes the other from keeping to their belief's rewards. No incentive, no standard, but it could still be agreed upon. This brings to mind the analogy of treating the commons like an ecosystem, or for this bunch, an audio ground. If you want clean signal, don't pollute the com. Anyway, to steelman your point, perhaps a better example would have a zero-sum component, where one's expressed truth somehow excludes the other from the benefit of keeping to a belief. That type of scenario would make consilience- even if desired- not possible.

Hodad, I was not being rhetorical or cynical, I wanted your opinion about the commons to add to my own. I'll try to kindly respond to your deflections tomorrow.

Edit: Btw, consilienceproject.org was the inspiration for the word choice.
Schmachtenberger's longform podcasts are on rotation. He's been influencing my thinking of late.

 

[JohnRoberts]

You know, a lot of people donate to Democrats--and there's more than a few big $$$$$$ donors. I'm sorry you feel compelled, time and time again, to single out a particular one who just happens to be Jewish. I've called you out on this before, and yet here you are again. As I noted before, I am not accusing you of being anti-Semitic but of (mindlessly?) repeating an anti-semitic talking point. Consider this me reporting you to a moderator (namely, you.)

I try not to do anything mindlessly. You are literally accusing me of anti-semitism without any real basis (rule #4). Regrettably we still see antisemitism in the world today, just not between my ears.

You need to consider that some popular partisan themes may actually be true statements. You suggest that all talking points by definition are fictional (flawed logic). Since I started this thread to inspect political talking points this is fair game for inspection.
===
George Soros is a specific target of criticism for organizations that he funds/supports promoting the election of radical/progressive prosecutors in multiple cities. In my judgement this criticism is not because he is Jewish or wealthy. I am aware that he is wealthy because of some of his high profile notorious currency trades. He made a bundle shorting the British pound when it was under pressure back in 1992. He reportedly made a profit of $1B from that trade at the expense of the Bank of England.

The unintended (I hope it was unintended) consequence of these new catch and release prosecutors is rising street violence in cities where violent criminals get released back to the street and not prosecuted or jailed.
====
The tide is going out and we can see how many in mainstream media are not wearing swim trunks. The NY POST asked the 50+ intelligence officials to comment, who claimed that emails on Hunter's laptop "sounds like Russian disinformation". Again, it can sound like disinfo and still be true. These partisan "team players" are supposed to be working for all of us, it appears they were on team Hillary effectively discrediting the embarrassing Hunter's laptop story to low information voters.

NYT belatedly (two years late) admitted that Hunter's lap top was real, but since then it is still being widely ignored by mainstream media. Reportedly the grand jury investigating Hunter's international dealings was slowed by Covid for a couple years but is back in regular sessions again. I can't imagine this running its full course but is still grinding along. Another shoe to drop?

Ex AG Barr was recently asked about Durham investigation and he remains optimistic that Durham will get to the bottom of the campaign mischief. It's been 3 years.

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

Try to be nicer...

I wasn't trying to be mean. I also use the N-word, repeating it, as used by my Republican "neighbors" to make blunt and extremely harsh points. My Democratic neighbors do not do the same(who do you stand with?)
What I am saying is:
If the Hunter laptop data is SO JUICY, Bannon and Giuliani must be RINO's(a term that Republicans chum the waters with, not Democrats) if they didn't divulge the info...or there's just not anything there. Otherwise, they would have. I'm not disputing that the laptop is potentially real, just that there's nothing of "value" on it. It's propaganda hype to further split people down the middle. Especially those who continue the tribalism ideologies.

 

[rob_gould]

Edit: Btw, consilienceproject.org was the inspiration for the word choice.
Schmachtenberger's longform podcasts are on rotation. He's been influencing my thinking of late.

I thought this was a good read.

https://consilienceproject.org/endgames-of-bad-communication/

 

[fallout]

Especially those who continue the tribalism ideologies.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm have trouble understanding some of the insults being flung around.... I am totally OK with that.... but remeber it's nice to be nice.

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

Pointing out people being nasty on one side does not equate to being nasty. It is only documentable observations. I can't help it if the truth is painful. Please point out those on the left being nasty. That has been what I have been seeking through debate, all along. I don't see signs of profanity attached to political campaigns, nor white supremacy, nor q-anon, nor Putin support, nor anti-LGBTQ, nor religious fundamentalists, nor the inability to read the 2nd amendment, nor money over people, nor money over environment, nor hiding history under the guise of CRT on the left.

edit: nor the freedom to get others sick against their will, nor the slur of "gay cancer", nor the stripping of workers rights, nor the enforcement of immigration while not prosecuting employers for verifying I-9/Citizenship forms prior to employment, etc.

edit 2: nor denying same-sex couples human rights, nor forcing rape and incest victims to carry pregnancies to term, nor proposing denying married couple access to birth control, etc, AGAIN.

edit 3: Who do you stand with?

 

[fallout]

Haha. I laughed at you mentioning 'tribalism'. I'm not even sure what you're responding to. Just listen to yourself.

 

[JohnRoberts]

and the beat goes on.....

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

Haha. I laughed at you mentioning 'tribalism'. I'm not even sure what you're responding to. Just listen to yourself.

I hear what I say. Republicans are nasty and selfish in general. What are Democrats? Gay lovers? Bleeding hearts? Environmentalists? Stupid 503c creators? Supporters for The National Endowment of the Arts? Supporters of fair and accessible education? Supporters of fair and accessible healthcare?

I asked for examples of generalizations which accurately describe most Democrats and/or liberals advocating policy which is just nasty towards those unlike them. You provide none and attack me. I'm waiting. I'll even listen and make an effort to change myself, given a well-explained argument, and convince those like me, but....

Voting for us/them, instead of issues that truly matter will be the end of this country's experiment.