team politics talking points.

[JohnRoberts]

Since this thread is about politics I will philosophize some... It is the nature of politics to persuade people to support one side or the other... This is a huge industry (big dollars) and I have included some good books on the science/art of persuasion in the reading list.

I see very little actual persuasion going on here, lots of rationalization, posturing, even some trolling.

Try to take a step backwards to better see the larger picture. The men and women behind the curtain work to pit us against each other so we don't realize how much we have in common.

I am interested in understanding politics so I am not the patsy in the poker game of life.

JR

 

[hodad]

Try to take a step backwards to better see the larger picture. The men and women behind the curtain work to pit us against each other so we don't realize how much we have in common.

JR

Yes. I actually find I have more than a few opinions in common with folks on the right who are here and elsewhere. A good example is on the outsized role money, especially big $$$$ donors. But how are folks going to unite on issues like that when the race card is constantly being played by the gop? And honestly, they play it the most. They also play the abortion card, and the immigrant card. You could potentially accuse dems of playing the anti-gun card(honestly, in the South it’s hard to say when dems go too far, because it generally happens in some other state) but R’s play the pro- gun card at least as often. Also, Dems often lean on their minority base while not always representing them as best they could.
So who’s going to acknowledge they’ve been played on an issue (or three)? Who will acknowledge,grudgingly or otherwise, successes from across the aisle?
Apologies for any typos. I’m typing on an iPad, which drives me crazy.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yes. I actually find I have more than a few opinions in common with folks on the right who are here and elsewhere.

I expect we all have more in common, than divides us.. Political strategists uses the strategy of division to manipulate our votes one way or the other.

A good example is on the outsized role money, especially big $$$$ donors.

Sadly politics is big business and elected officials hit the ground raising money for their next election cycle. This never ending thirst for campaign fund raising makes whores of all but independently wealthy. For better or worse, modern campaigns cost so much that even a very wealthy individual can't buy his way into office. Some obvious recent examples are Bloomberg, Jeff Bezos, and let's not forget Ross Perot who got something like 19% of the popular vote, while running as a third party, but he was more of a spoiler.

But how are folks going to unite on issues like that when the race card is constantly being played by the gop?

Opinions vary... From where I sit it looks like the left is the side promoting racial division, and identity politics to make mountains out of molehills. The current appointment for SCOTUS happens to be a black woman which seems to matter more to the democrats than the republicans. It is your team's turn to pick, and you have the votes so enjoy the win.

And honestly, they play it the most.

I see it pretty much the opposite way, but that is not exactly news.

They also play the abortion card,

Abortion card? Is this "____ card" word play on a trump card, like when playing Bridge?

Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice are pretty long (decades old) running political debates. IIRC the Abortion card was last played against Amy Conry Barret, claiming that she was a threat to woman's abortion rights, during her SCOTUS hearings.

and the immigrant card.

Not sure what you are referring to... Immigration reform has been stalemated since powerful groups from both sides feel like they benefit from leaving it unresolved. Border security is a concern for most people (I think?). I have yet to hear a reasoned argument in favor of open borders, not to mention the unintended (?) consequences of fentanyl poisoning, human trafficking , etc.

You could potentially accuse dems of playing the anti-gun card(honestly, in the South it’s hard to say when dems go too far, because it generally happens in some other state) but R’s play the pro- gun card at least as often.

2nd amendment? The democrats are the best gun salesmen ever... I can't imagine living in a modern city like NYC or Chicago without protection, while the law probably makes it difficult for honest citizens to arm themselves.

Looking at the Ukraine situation should be instructive about the value of an armed citizenry to fight against oppression.

Also, Dems often lean on their minority base while not always representing them as best they could.

The demographics are shifting, but these days I feel like I am in the minority.

So who’s going to acknowledge they’ve been played on an issue (or three)?

nobody (Dunning Kruger effect) part of how we are wired.

Who will acknowledge,grudgingly or otherwise, successes from across the aisle?

My momma told me if I can't say anything nice don't say anything at all, so good job ya'll.

JR

Apologies for any typos. I’m typing on an iPad, which drives me crazy.

 

[iturnknobs]

Try to take a step backwards to better see the larger picture. The men and women behind the curtain work to pit us against each other...

2nd amendment? The democrats are the best gun salesmen ever... I can't imagine living in a modern city like NYC or Chicago without protection, while the law probably makes it difficult for honest citizens to arm themselves...

...to maintain a well REGULATED (read it and weep, conservatives) militia...not to shoot at fellow citizens. Also, if I'm pointing a gun at you, and you attempt to pull one out, I will not let you get a shot off, meaning they are more likely to get one killed. I love it when people support the latter half of the 2nd Amendment, without recognizing the first half. In 1791, no more than four shots a minute could be fired. Those bump stocks are really keeping people safe.
The right-wing media is the best fear sales organization ever. Thanks for the example provided by you. I work in the major DemocRAT cities of our country. I have been to practically ALL of them multiple times.
You are a smart man and you would NEVER put yourself in the neighborhoods where your news sources procure and over-amplify these reports from.
Hawaii has the most restrictive gun laws in the country and the lowest rate of deaths by gun. Democrat gun salesmen...
Take a look at the state line between Indiana with extremely loose gun laws right next to the near Chicago suburbs with tight gun laws...I wonder where the guns come from? If only we could build a wall. WHAT A SOLUTION!!!
Try different news sources... especially ones that don't imply that the current SCOTUS nominee is a pedophile sympathizer.
#pizzagate

I always try to point out people being nasty to people in a certain party and the softball continues to be "lobbed" at me.

 

[JohnRoberts]

...to maintain a well REGULATED (read it and weep, conservatives) militia...not to shoot at fellow citizens.

yup, but the right to self defense is a natural right that predates the constitution and bill of rights.

Also, if I'm pointing a gun at you, and you attempt to pull one out, I will not let you get a shot off, meaning they are more likely to get one killed.

Thanks for the fair warning, why would you be pointing your gun at me? That sounds like bad weapon discipline, it might be loaded (like Baldwin's was).

I love it when people support the latter half of the 2nd Amendment, without recognizing the first half. In 1791,

straw man..

no more than four shots a minute could be fired. Those bump stocks are really keeping people safe.

AFAIK bump stocks were outlawed after Las Vegas shooting.

The right-wing media is the best fear sales organization ever. Thanks for the example provided by you. I work in the major DemocRAT cities of our country. I have been to practically ALL of them multiple times.

opinions vary.

You are a smart man and you would NEVER put yourself in the neighborhoods where your news sources procure and over-amplify these reports from.

Amazon (presumably smart) just relocated 1,800 employees out of downtown Seattle... is this fake news?

Hawaii has the most restrictive gun laws in the country and the lowest rate of deaths by gun. Democrat gun salesmen...

hawaii is nice, I have one old business acquaintance living there and he likes it.

Take a look at the state line between Indiana with extremely loose gun laws right next to the near Chicago suburbs with tight gun laws...I wonder where the guns come from? If only we could build a wall. WHAT A SOLUTION!!!

Perhaps support the local police to enforce the laws.

Try different news sources... especially ones that don't imply that the current SCOTUS nominee is a pedophile sympathizer.
#pizzagate

another straw man... Her sentencing record is being questioned, typically below sentencing guidelines. Her rationale is that the WWW makes it so easy to get kiddie porn, that the minimum sentence guidelines are too harsh. A corollary is that bump stocks make it some much easier to kill people so sentencing should not be as harsh as for people killing using only semi-automatics. (sorry, but to make a point)...

This judicial hearing is all part of the beltway political circus. Turn off the lights and cameras and they will fade back into the swamp. No comparison to Kavanaugh and Barrett hearings, but two wrongs do not make it right. This is further evidence of our nations deteriorating civility.

I always try to point out people being nasty to people in a certain party and the softball continues to be "lobbed" at me.

swing and a miss....

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

swing and a miss....

JR

Take a look closer to home. Be afraid... very afraid. Opinions vary and facts are facts, unless they are "alternative facts".

https://www.clarionledger.com/story...hest-mississippi-2018-cdc-figures/4933239002/
Per Capita, your claims are laughable.

https://www.clarionledger.com/story.../7073265001/?itm_source=AMP&itm_medium=UpNext

 

[JohnRoberts]

I am not very afraid... I noted recently that Jackson, MS was cited among the list of cities with record homicide rates, I'm not sure what your point is, but I am well aware of the problem in numerous liberal cities... Surprise surprise, Jackson MS is liberal (democrat).

I don't watch a lot of local news but there are gun homicides reported closer to me, Jackson is maybe 60 miles west, 20 miles east Meridian has some gun violence too. A perhaps amusing legend, when I first moved down here, I heard that Meridian was noted as the "unsolved" murder capital. So this is probably a good place to live if you want to disappear somebody. I don't roll that way.

By some metrics, Jackson is the nation’s most dangerous city. Homicide numbers have soared across the country the past two years, but based on cities with at least 100,000 population, Jackson’s per capita murder rate is the highest in the United States.

There's a negative stat about Jackson,MS you missed....

JR

 

[Matador]

yup, but the right to self defense is a natural right that predates the constitution and bill of rights.

The words "a right to self defense" don't appear anywhere in the Constitution. Certainly if that were the intention the founders would have included it, yes?

Her sentencing record is being questioned, typically below sentencing guidelines.

She did routinely hand down sentences below the guidelines, but a) so do many other judges (many of them Republican appointees), and b) were in line with those requested by the prosecution (also in line with standard practice). An analysis of findings of the sentencing recommendation board found that Judge Jackson handed down sentences that were in line with other judges (12 of which were Trump appointees), many of whom were confirmed by the same GOP Senators that are bringing this up now.

I'm not sure what your point is, but I am well aware of the problem in numerous liberal cities... Surprise surprise, Jackson MS is liberal (democrat).

Opinions vary. Murder rate per capita rose in many cities, both Democratic and Republican. In fact, murder rates in Jacksonville, Miami, Forth Worth, Tulsa, and Oklahoma City, all rose by more than 26% per capita, and all are Republican cities. Perhaps correlation is not causation?

 

[iturnknobs]

but I am well aware of the problem in numerous liberal cities... Surprise surprise, Jackson MS is liberal (democrat).

...in a sea of bad Republican legislation.

Summary of Mississippi Gun Laws:
"Mississippi is a shall-issue, permitless carry state with concealed weapons permits issued at the state level by the Department of Public Safety. There is NO permit, background check or firearms registration required when buying a handgun from a private individual."

May 18, 2021

Freedom. 'Murica.

 

[scott2000]

hawaii is nice, I have one old business acquaintance living there and he likes it

Beautiful place...
My neighbors just got back from the big island and said the homelessness situation was crazy. Come to think of it, those were pretty much all the exciting stories they felt like talking about..

 

[JohnRoberts]

...in a sea of bad Republican legislation.

Summary of Mississippi Gun Laws:
"Mississippi is a shall-issue, permitless carry state with concealed weapons permits issued at the state level by the Department of Public Safety. There is NO permit, background check or firearms registration required when buying a handgun from a private individual."

May 18, 2021

I try not to break laws (forgetting about the occasional speed limit) so I followed the local gun laws that changed a couple times over the last few decades. They passed a "castle law" effectively that you can use lethal self defense in your home. After that they extended the castle protection to your vehicle so carrying your weapon in your car is legal.

When I first moved down here every pickup truck had a shotgun or hunting rifle in the rear window... these days not as much, probably because of theft.

Freedom. 'Muric

yup..
===
If simply outlawing guns worked Chicago and NYC would be free of all gun violence.

Police and prosecutors need to enforce those laws.

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

If simply outlawing guns worked Chicago and NYC would be free of all gun violence.

Once again, Hawaii... it's just not surrounded by a bunch of bad actors and legislation.

Also, I never said outlaw guns. Sensible regulations (the word unread by conservatives in the 2nd Amendment), is what is needed. The fact that Republicans willingly register and insure their cars without throwing a fit is laughable...seeing as they won't do the same with something which only exists with the purpose of KILLING...hmmm, nasty.

Cars are needed. Guns are not.
https://consumer.healthday.com/fire...ding-cause-of-premature-death-2656748833.html

 

[JohnRoberts]

Once again, Hawaii... it's just not surrounded by a bunch of bad actors and legislation.

huh?

Also, I never said outlaw guns. Sensible regulations (the word unread by conservatives in the 2nd Amendment), is what is needed. The fact that Republicans willingly register and insure their cars without throwing a fit is laughable...seeing as they won't do the same with something which only exists with the purpose of KILLING...hmmm, nasty.

people kill people, guns are just the tool of choice for some.

I wasted some time after I was drafted trying to convince some junior 2nd lieutenant that I didn't see any need to kill people. He told me not to kill any of my fellow soldiers at Ft Riley KS.

Cars are needed. Guns are not.
https://consumer.healthday.com/fire...ding-cause-of-premature-death-2656748833.html

Fentanyl overdoses have become the leading cause of death for adults ages 18 to 45, according to recent U.S. government data. The potent narcotic killed more Americans in 2020 than car accidents, gun violence, suicide, and COVID-19, according to the opioid awareness organization Families Against Fentanyl, which analyzed the CDC statistics.

I hear there is another new synthetic opioid that is even more lethal.

JR

 

[hodad]

I expect we all have more in common, than divides us.. Political strategists uses the strategy of division to manipulate our votes one way or the other.


Sadly politics is big business and elected officials hit the ground raising money for their next election cycle. This never ending thirst for campaign fund raising makes whores of all but independently wealthy. For better or worse, modern campaigns cost so much that even a very wealthy individual can't buy his way into office. Some obvious recent examples are Bloomberg, Jeff Bezos, and let's not forget Ross Perot who got something like 19% of the popular vote, while running as a third party, but he was more of a spoiler.

Opinions vary... From where I sit it looks like the left is the side promoting racial division, and identity politics to make mountains out of molehills. The current appointment for SCOTUS happens to be a black woman which seems to matter more to the democrats than the republicans. It is your team's turn to pick, and you have the votes so enjoy the win.

I see it pretty much the opposite way, but that is not exactly news.

Abortion card? Is this "____ card" word play on a trump card, like when playing Bridge?

Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice are pretty long (decades old) running political debates. IIRC the Abortion card was last played against Amy Conry Barret, claiming that she was a threat to woman's abortion rights, during her SCOTUS hearings.

Not sure what you are referring to... Immigration reform has been stalemated since powerful groups from both sides feel like they benefit from leaving it unresolved. Border security is a concern for most people (I think?). I have yet to hear a reasoned argument in favor of open borders, not to mention the unintended (?) consequences of fentanyl poisoning, human trafficking , etc.

2nd amendment? The democrats are the best gun salesmen ever... I can't imagine living in a modern city like NYC or Chicago without protection, while the law probably makes it difficult for honest citizens to arm themselves.

Looking at the Ukraine situation should be instructive about the value of an armed citizenry to fight against oppression.

The demographics are shifting, but these days I feel like I am in the minority.

nobody (Dunning Kruger effect) part of how we are wired.

My momma told me if I can't say anything nice don't say anything at all, so good job ya'll.

JR

Political strategists seek to divide us, and it appears you’re quite happy to do your bit to help them out. Good work, John!

 

[boji]

The words "a right to self defense" don't appear anywhere in the Constitution. Certainly if that were the intention the founders would have included it, yes?

An amplification of what natural laws were like in the late 18th century would help. The way the history books select for it, one would think early townsfolk deliberated over the rights to attend public executions or perform duels to the death with about as much explicitness as the rights to a game of shuttlecock.

 

[JohnRoberts]

An amplification of what natural laws were like in the late 18th century would help. The way the history books select for it, one would think early townsfolk deliberated over the rights to attend public executions or perform duels to the death with about as much explicitness as the rights to a game of shuttlecock.

Natural laws are not enumerated but apparent like common sense.

Natural law (Latin: ius naturale, lex naturalis) is a system of law based on a close observation of human nature, and based on values intrinsic to human nature that can be deduced and applied independent of positive law (the enacted laws of a state or society). According to natural law theory, all people have inherent rights, conferred not by act of legislation but by "God, nature, or reason." Natural law theory can also refer to "theories of ethics, theories of politics, theories of civil law, and theories of religious morality."

Sadly I just did a search and found a new woke redefinition of natural law... (are we living in Orwell's 1984?)
===
Back then farmers living away from populated areas needed a long rifle to hunt for food, at the risk of sounding cliche to protect against Indians, or marauders. Rifles were arguably necessary for survival in the wilderness.

We are getting pretty far off tangent...

I apologize to any who find this divisive.

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

at risk of sounding cliche to protect against Indians...

You mean killing those who owned the land that we stole. More CRT, I suppose.

If anyone's been paying attention, it might be becoming apparent that I think selfishness and murder are unacceptable. I do take pleasure in seeing those who do so suffer when their behaviors backfire. The day women primarily control the world, instead of men, these issues will likely start to be resolved...if we live that long as a species. Doubtful. Testosterone is more dangerous than Fentanyl.

 

[scott2000]

Testosterone is more dangerous than Fentanyl.

My Dad's been on test suppression for a few years now. Guess it's normal for cancer patients.

 

[rob_gould]

. The day women primarily control the world, instead of men, these issues will likely start to be resolved...if we live that long as a species. Doubtful. Testosterone is more dangerous than Fentanyl.

I read an observation the other day that I found interesting.

The old cliche that 'women are more emotional than men' only works because men do not see anger as an emotion.

 

[JohnRoberts]

My Dad's been on test suppression for a few years now. Guess it's normal for cancer patients.

I recall a decade or more ago when big pharma researched ways to stimulate testosterone output, this was considered a quality of life home run, until the legal department pointed out the massive liability of promoting cancer.

The cancer connection has not slowed the supplement industry from promoting T enhancement.

Caveat emptor... cancer kills, fentanyl kills, testosterone not in the same ball park but I perceive some misandry (mixed in with the typical prejudices).

JR