The absurdity of US college textbooks

[user 37518]

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[AnalogPackrat]

It's been a bit scammy like that since I was an engineering undergrad in the mid-80s. By the late 80s prices were even higher. Back then the publishing cycles were slower (a new edition every 3-8 years maybe), but books were very overpriced. Some new ones were $50-60 back then. I bought used when I could. Sounds like the publishers have "optimized" their profit model. Unfortunate. I'm glad I kept most of my old tech books as, with only a couple of exceptions, the material was good.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Actually include the authors (often teachers for the college courses). If they can get their own text into the curriculum for their course they get an extra gravy train.

JR

[edit- the entire borrow money to go to college is a positive feedback loop driving up prices. /edit

 

[user 37518]

I just noticed that the latest edition of Sedra/Smith Microelectronic circuits, which is probably one of the most popular EE undergrad book used in colleges, is "on sale" on Amazon for $195 US after a 15% discount from the original $229 price. This is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is when they offer the electronic version of the book for a very minor price difference, if production costs is the pretext for the price tag on the physical book, the price of the ebook completely disproves it.

Ps, I know that the entire free college topic is a touchy subject in the US, but you guys really need to do something about tuition costs, no kid should have to sell his/her soul for a college education. Grad school is cheaper, but undergrads have it really rough

 

[user 37518]

Actually include the authors (often teachers for the college courses). If they can get their own text into the curriculum for their course they get an extra gravy train.

JR

[edit- the entire borrow money to go to college is a positive feedback loop driving up prices. /edit

Ps, I know the entire free college topic is a touchy issue in the US, but you guys really need to do something about tuition costs, no kid should have to sell his/her soul for a college education. Grad school is cheaper, but undergrads have it really hard.

 

[Tubetec]

Here in Ireland a company called Folens was the main primary school book publisher , it was very hard for anyone else to get a look in for years and years . A damaging report came out trying to link Mr Folens with the Nazi regime. The family went to great lenghts to suppress the news by court injunction .
Albert Folens aided the Nazis before he shaped the minds of Irish children | IrishCentral.com
Links between Germany and the IRA go back to around the time of WW1 when Roger Casement organised a shipment of weapons ,but he was subsequently arrested on an isolated beach in Co Kerry after being dropped ashore from a German U-boat . Heres a link to a few other good articles about the subject if anyones interested .
https://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/frankry...istoricalContext/TheIRAslinkswithNaziGermany/
De Valera himself wasnt without his sympathies for the Nazi regime, it seems , signing the book of condolences after Hitlers death .
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/w...-because-of-us-ambassador-177156741-237537031
Its all quite a tangled web ,very difficult to see the wood from the trees ,
One of the good things to come out of this relationship was the hydroelectric dam at Ardnacrushe , built by Siemens and commissioned in 1929 , it covered most of Irelands electrical power needs for decades after and meant we didnt need to rely on the British to supply us power .

 

[5v333]

I made a search for Sedra/Smith Microelectronic circuits. I found a version for sale in here in Sweden, new, for about 70euros and another version for about 270euros...

Is there no chance you can either find used copies or loan from a library?

 

[5v333]

Or just get an older version cheaper?

 

[user 37518]

Or just get an older version cheaper?

That is exactly the problem, older versions are cheaper, but kids are forced by their college professors to buy the newest edition, publishers change the end of chapter problems, and make enough revisions to make the older versions unusable for the course. Some professors pity their students and ask for an old edition, but most professors are pressed to ask for the new edition.

Many students sell their used books after they finish the course, and future students can buy these used books for a much lower price. Publishers don't like that so they make sure that the new editions come out as soon as possible to render the used copies worthless, these new editions do not have significative new material, they usually just change the order of things, change the problems, and stuff like that, enough to make the older books worthless or to make the life of the student impossible. Of course, if you want to buy the books for personal study the used versions are a wonderful thing since they are quite cheap, I do that all the time, the problem is that when students start a course they are required to buy a specific edition of the book, which is usually the newest one.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Ps, I know that the entire free college topic is a touchy issue in the US, but you guys really need to do something about tuition costs, no kid should have to sell his/her soul for a college education. Grad school is cheaper, but undergrads have it really rough

It is hard to be against more education, but the US government's idea of help is too easy student loans. This easy funding drives up college costs as they raise prices to take advantage of the easy money. I guess it's logical that text book sellers would also participate in the feeding frenzy.

For most undergraduate courses there should be mature established books. Authors of new texts deserve compensation for their work but I doubt they are driving this price spiral.

===

In the news, President Biden is contemplating more student debt forgiveness. Current speculation is something like $10k per student. This won't help balance the budget.

[edit- just like EV makers raised their prices after the new EV subsidy, does anybody expect colleges not to raise tuition in response to more government largess? /edit]

JR

 

[user 37518]

It is hard to be against more education, but the US government's idea of help is too easy student loans. This easy funding drives up college costs as they raise prices to take advantage of the easy money. I guess it's logical that text book sellers would also participate in the feeding frenzy.

For most undergraduate courses there should be mature established books. Authors of new texts deserve compensation for their work but I doubt they are driving this price spiral.

===

In the news, President Biden is contemplating more student debt forgiveness. Current speculation is something like $10k per student. This won't help balance the budget.

JR

Let me tell you how it works down here in the "developing world", even though there are a lot of bad things going on, universities are something we are proud of: there are private universities and there are public universities, public universities are the best in every aspect and they are 100% state funded, no student has to pay a dime, these universities are not the equivalent to community colleges, these are the biggest universities in the country, around 90% of all the R&D comes from these universities, all Mexican Nobel laurates (we have only 3) come from a public university, even the first Mexican astronaut comes from the same public university.

I can tell you from my own experience, during my MS. EE and PhD, not only did I not pay a dime but I was awarded a monthly tuition by the government to complete my studies, I was awarded social security and medical insurance and, if you graduate within a specific time, you get awarded an extra $1500 US bonus, I even got funds to get my thesis printed. This only applies to graduate degrees, undergraduates do not pay tuition but they don't get the monthly allowance but they do get the medical insurance. Of course, the acceptance rate to these universities is below 8-10%. The government also offers students scholarships to study Master's and PhD degrees abroad, with government funds I was able to go to the US as a visiting scholar for six months at OSU in Columbus, OH, I wasn't living the big life, 3 other students and I were living in a tiny 2 bedroom apartment. However, the situation is very different from the US, Mexico wants to invest a lot in R&D to "become a developed country" so they need people with higher degrees to do that. In the US the situation is quite different.

I studied and now teach at the National Autonomous University of Mexico and it is 100% free although the acceptance rate is below 10%. If I ask my students for a $250 book they would probably throw a Molotov cocktail at me.

This is a cheesy institutional video but you get the idea, I wont lie, the students and faculty at this university have a very "socialist" —not to say communist— way of thinking, especially back in the 60s and 70s, but it still prevails, many students call everyone "compañero" which is not the same but very close to "comrade", for example, they will approach someone they don't know and say something like "Compañero do you have a light?" and so on.... I haven't heard the phrase so much lately but my dad, who also studied there, said he continuously heard stuff like "La revolución nos hará justicia" or "The revolution will make us justice". Still, from what I see, US colleges are now also quite communist.



On the other hand, private universities here do cost a lot and basically anyone who can afford them can get in, but you get charged even for the breath you take inside campus, these are not as good as the public universities because they don't have even 10% the infrastructure, resources, etc... as public universities, but the "elites" look down on public universities as those were the "poor people go". Still, these private universities, even though they are expensive, they are not unpayable as in the case of the US universities, you have to take a loan but not a life wrecking loan.

In my opinion, the US should have a few public universities where everyone can attend, with a below 10% acceptance rate if necessary and, for the rest, people can attend and pay for a private university if that is what they want, but tuition shouldn't be as expensive as it is right now.

 

[Lee_M]

UK universities don't seem to have this issue afaik (they seem to have the necessary textbooks in their library, and loan those books to students for free as part of their course), but I've heard good things from friends in the US about LibGen and Sci-Hub.

If you want to avoid lining the pockets of these grifters and you're happy with digital copies, I'd recommend checking those sites out. I have no idea if they have the latest edition of whatever particular book you're looking for, but it's definitely worth a look.

 

[user 37518]

UK universities don't seem to have this issue afaik (they seem to have the necessary textbooks in their library, and loan those books to students for free as part of their course), but I've heard good things from friends in the US about LibGen and Sci-Hub.

If you want to avoid lining the pockets of these grifters and you're happy with digital copies, I'd recommend checking those sites out. I have no idea if they have the latest edition of whatever particular book you're looking for, but it's definitely worth a look.

Thanks! I hate ebooks, and I am not entirely sure those type of sites are not offering piracy. I only download "free" books when I know they are no longer being published, so I know I am not robbing anyone...

 

[JohnRoberts]

I did not matriculate to a degree, so I need to stop pontificating about US colleges.

JR

 

[user 37518]

I did not matriculate to a degree, so I need to stop pontificating about US colleges.

JR

I dont think you should stop, if your tax dollars are being used to fund them, its just as important as any other state funded issue.

 

[user 37518]

Let me give you a clear example of the abuse

The book "Microwave engineering", 4th ed, by Pozar, US edition, new, $127: Microwave Engineering

"Microwave Engineering International Edition" 4th ed, same publisher, new, $16: Microwave Engineering International Edition

Both have exactly the same content, with the exception of the end of chapter problems. Of course, the international edition has cheaper paper and all, but the US edition is 794% more expensive! You can't attribute that difference to paper quality or a hardcover, but greed alone. They know US students can afford to pay full price.

 

[fazer]

No matter what the original idea was behind student loans, it’s turned into serfdom. If the bankruptcy laws were allowed on student loans, the whole situation would be solved by the market with great scrutiny and swiftness.
Why would a financial or educational institution care when there are no Consequences. The college should also be held responsible for the failure of loan payments. I’m not holding my breath.

The 10k loan relief is to be announced today. They’re saving the compete forgiveness for 2024 before the election.

 

[user 37518]

Another Example

"Analysis and Design of Analog Integrated Circuits", 5th edition, Gray et al., US edition, new, $265 ($135 to rent) Analysis and design of analog integrated circuits

"Analysis and Design of Analog Integrated Circuits, International Edition", 5th edition, same publisher, new, $23 Analysis and Design of Analog Integrated Circuits IE

The US edition is 1152% more expensive. Both have the same content, except for end of chapter problems and overall physical quality of paper/binding....

 

[fazer]

The US edition is 1152%

I wonder if big pharma bought the book company’s, Or maybe the mob did.

 

[Tubetec]

Seems to fit the text book definition of racketeering perfectly .
We have schemes here in Ireland to help low waged parents cover the costs of school books and uniforms .
The college system has its own system of grants available ,still though many people from lower income families havent got the money to give their kids a college education even if they have enough points to do a subject .
Anyone over around 24 years old qualifies as a mature student which includes rent allowance/social welfare and money to cover books etc most would probably still need some kind of part time job to make ends meat ,mainly due to the housing crisis were in .

 

[fazer]

Part time jobs are how I made through college in the 70s. Collage in the US is 4 times the inflation rate in the past 40 years. It coincides with the government student loan program.

 

[user 37518]

Seems to fit the text book definition of racketeering perfectly .
We have schemes here in Ireland to help low waged parents cover the costs of school books and uniforms .
The college system has its own system of grants available ,still though many people from lower income families havent got the money to give their kids a college education even if they have enough points to do a subject .
Anyone over around 24 years old qualifies as a mature student which includes rent allowance/social welfare and money to cover books etc most would probably still need some kind of part time job to make ends meat ,mainly due to the housing crisis were in .

Its even worse when you consider the amount that the author gets, similar to the music industry. I think that the main reason academic authors write books has more to do with academic reputation rather than earnings.