The score card

[pucho812]

Most of my patients throughout my career were undocumented monolingual Mexicans and Guatemalans (who keep the American economy going.) They explained to me how those who are here legally feel about them using the "crabs in a bucket" analogy.

Of course, this is how pretty much any ethnic or social group feels about the other members - it's just human nature.

Nothing wrong with asking folks to follow the rules on how to become a citizen. Many places people threatened to move to in 2016 would not have allowed them to just come on over

 

[hodad]

Nothing wrong with asking folks to follow the rules on how to become a citizen. Many places people threatened to move to in 2016 would not have allowed them to just come on over

Yeah, only a crazy, left wing radical would float an idea like offering amnesty to illegals--some commie pinko, like, umm, hmm, let's see.....Ronald Reagan??!?!?!?!?!!????!??

 

[pucho812]

Yeah, only a crazy, left wing radical would float an idea like offering amnesty to illegals--some commie pinko, like, umm, hmm, let's see.....Ronald Reagan??!?!?!?!?!!????!??

History tells us the people who were offered amnesty fled communist/socialist cuba.
They still were vetted

 

[crazydoc]

History tells us the people who were offered amnesty fled communist/socialist cuba.
They still were vetted

That's BS. Apparently many people think that if they write it on the internet, with no documentation, that makes it true, and everybody should believe it. (Unfortunately, many do, which is a big reason this country is in such a clusterfuk now.)

I did numerous physicals back then on run-of-the-mill Mexicans working in AZ, who signed up for the amnesty program, and exams were documented on US govt forms, mainly to prove they didn't have STD's, TB or other communicable diseases.

"The legalization provisions in this act will go far to improve the lives of a class of individuals who now must hide in the shadows, without access to many of the benefits of a free and open society. Very soon many of these men and women will be able to step into the sunlight and, ultimately, if they choose, they may become Americans."

Ronald Reagan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986

 

[pucho812]

That's BS. Apparently many people think that if they write it on the internet, with no documentation, that makes it true, and everybody should believe it. (Unfortunately, many do, which is a big reason this country is in such a clusterfuk now.)

I did numerous physicals back then on run-of-the-mill Mexicans working in AZ, who signed up for the amnesty program, and exams were documented on US govt forms, mainly to prove they didn't have STD's, TB or other communicable diseases.

"The legalization provisions in this act will go far to improve the lives of a class of individuals who now must hide in the shadows, without access to many of the benefits of a free and open society. Very soon many of these men and women will be able to step into the sunlight and, ultimately, if they choose, they may become Americans."

Ronald Reagan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986

I knew many a cuban who fled and were vetted.  but what do I know.

 

[hodad]

I knew many a cuban who fled and were vetted.  but what do I know.

That's fine, but it doesn't mean that it was all about the Cubans.
"I know 5 Cubans who availed themselves of Reagan's Illegal Immigrant Amnesty Program" does not logically get us to "Reagan's amnesty program was mostly for Cubans." 

I can't find a breakdown of who applied and received legal status via IRCA, but 2.7 million people benefited from the program.  Your handful of Cubans is not a statistically valid sample of 2.7 million. 

Your quaint anecdotal information is nice and all, but if all we had was quaint anecdotal information, then crazydoc could say that the program only benefited Mexicans, since that was his direct experience.  I personally didn't know a single person who benefited, so going by my experience, no one at all benefited from IRCA. 

Seriously, dude.  Don't argue with nothing more than crap and a snarky attitude.  Accept that you're wrong, maybe learn a little more about what you're talking about (I actually learned more about this myself), and feel good that you know a little more now than you did this morning. 

 

[pucho812]

That's fine, but it doesn't mean that it was all about the Cubans.
"I know 5 Cubans who availed themselves of Reagan's Illegal Immigrant Amnesty Program" does not logically get us to "Reagan's amnesty program was mostly for Cubans." 

I can't find a breakdown of who applied and received legal status via IRCA, but 2.7 million people benefited from the program.  Your handful of Cubans is not a statistically valid sample of 2.7 million. 

Your quaint anecdotal information is nice and all, but if all we had was quaint anecdotal information, then crazydoc could say that the program only benefited Mexicans, since that was his direct experience.  I personally didn't know a single person who benefited, so going by my experience, no one at all benefited from IRCA. 

Seriously, dude.  Don't argue with nothing more than crap and a snarky attitude.  Accept that you're wrong, maybe learn a little more about what you're talking about (I actually learned more about this myself), and feel good that you know a little more now than you did this morning.

The person I was learning most from got chased out of here because of his view points.
But anyway.

 

[iturnknobs]

As a half mexicano I am shocked you make such assumptions.  But then again the legal folks who are Mexican feel the same way I do about the illegal immigration policy...

...and I know a guy(mid 40s) whose mother carried him out of Columbia in the early 80s and into our country. However it happened, he ended up in the Marines, has a bunch of AR-15s, is a huge Trump supporter and hates immigrants and "Brown people". Nothing shocks me anymore. I don't understand the blind obsession with the propaganda machine. Some are more susceptible than others and I'm not sure why.

I also wouldn’t use a fact check by the l.a. times. I live out here and they are extremely biased.

Here ya go.
https://www.rappler.com/newsbreak/fact-check/barack-obama-built-border-cages-separate-children-donald-trump-final-presidential-debate-2020

So much so that they think the current California government is doing a wonderful job while at the same time abc7 the local abc affiliate says “ Chronic homelessness in LA County expected to skyrocket by 86% in next 4 years”

...and Trump said C-19 would go away in the summer... I'm still keeping score

 

[iturnknobs]

The person I was learning most from got chased out of here because of his view points.
But anyway.

I've noticed less Antifa talk, less questioning of the election results, less Hunter Biden talk, less support for policies that are selfish concerning money and rights and less support for policies that are bad for the environment. I'm good with that. One more point for my score. Have no fear, Breitbart or NewsMax or RedState hasn't been silenced by "big-tech" yet.

 

[iturnknobs]

XL pipeline halted by EO after pushed through people's lands by EO...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/general-motors-all-electric-2035.amp

Looks like it's gonna be a moot point in the very near future. I guess it's gonna be GM's fault for those job losses now. Another point scored.

 

[hodad]

The person I was learning most from got chased out of here because of his view points.
But anyway.

So that means you didn't learn anything from me?  :'(   I gave you some basic numbers about a program a Republican president instituted--not my opinion of the program.  Almost 3 million applied, about 2.7 million received some sort of legal status.  At the time there were estimated to be about 5 million folks in the country illegally. 

That's not opinion.  Crazydoc's personal experience was enlightening to me as well--as was yours.  But neither your experience, nor crazydoc's, nor mine gave a full picture of what was happening.  The problem is not that your information was bad--it's that it wasn't enough info to draw the conclusion you chose to draw. 

And now you have information that goes beyond your own personal experience.  That info indicates that the conclusion you were drawing was wrong.  So are you going to continue to push your incorrect inference, or are you going to discard your original flawed conclusion and incorporate the new information into how you think about this matter? 

 

[iturnknobs]

I gave you some basic numbers about a program a Republican president instituted--not my opinion of the program.  Almost 3 million applied, about 2.7 million received some sort of legal status.  At the time there were estimated to be about 5 million folks in the country illegally...

...So are you going to continue to push your incorrect inference, or are you going to discard your original flawed conclusion and incorporate the new information into how you think about this matter?

Here's the real immigration issue, but people would prefer to be hateful and support tribalism instead of dealing with the actual issue at hand(Republicans supporting businesses over people).

https://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/559/

 

[pucho812]

So that means you didn't learn anything from me?  :'(

I didn't say that did I? no.

 

[boji]

Arguments about the ethical treatment of UW is a bit of a side issue. Some assumptions need to be analyzed, and possibly modified:

1) Is the US in a state of decline, and if so, what would be an ideal population equilibrium to mitigate such decline?
2)To what degree does the US economy rely on an embedded growth obligation, and if the EGO can not be met, what immigration policy would best assist in addressing it?

https://theportal.wiki/wiki/Embedded_Growth_Obligation

 

[hodad]

Nobody should give someone some work if they need it? These immigrants are coming because there is nothing where they are. So the answer is to make sure there is nothing for them here?

I think the point is that it's at best hypocritical to punish immigrant workers while doing little or nothing to those who employ them.  The rich exploit a vulnerable workforce, who take risks just to do jobs that are often physically difficult, woefully underpaid, and/or dangerously unsafe.  If you really want to address the problem, punishing employers who turn a blind eye to the legal status of their workers would be a great place to start.  However, all the risk--and that's risk in the sense of risking deportation as well as the risk involved in many of the jobs available to them--is put on the workers. 

An employer (let's say Donald Trump) knowingly hires illegals while at the same time ginning up racism/xenophobia among working class whites who may be struggling as well.  But instead of focusing on their own role in employing undocumented workers, they focus all hate and resentment on the workers (who are already being exploited by their bosses.) 

I certainly would be open to an honest discussion of the ins & outs of the issue.  It's not all that simple, and it's certainly not as simple as most right-wing politicians like to portray it.  I'm not interested in engaging in discussions that rely on fear and misinformation, or rhetorical games, or on a persistent unwillingness to look at the problem fully. 

 

[crazydoc]

I think the point is that it's at best hypocritical to punish immigrant workers while doing little or nothing to those who employ them.

The Immigration Reform and Control Act altered US immigration law by making it illegal to hire illegal immigrants knowingly and establishing financial and other penalties for companies that employed illegal immigrants.

The hiring process also changed as employers turned to indirect hiring through subcontractors. "Under a subcontracting agreement, a U.S. citizen or resident alien contractually agrees with an employer to provide a specific number of workers for a certain period of time to undertake a defined task at a fixed rate of pay per worker." .
By using a subcontractor the firm is not held liable since the workers are not employees.

again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986

That worked out real well to hold the employers responsible, didn't it.

The undocumented (and many documented) immigrants are doing sh!t jobs no one else will do at their pay scale. If the pay were raised enough to be able to hire and keep American citizen workers, most of us would not be able to afford to buy groceries or stay in a motel/hotel. (Just my opinion.)

When I worked in a migrant clinic in the early eighties, "La Migra" raided a fish processing plant and deported most of the workers to Mexico. For a few days they couldn't hire enough people to do the work, until the deported workers showed up again, as everyone knew they would.

 

[hodad]

I get the Trump hiring thing .... Whatever...it's one example of stuff..

The low wage thing is really played out imo.... I know plenty who make good money... Shoot, guys in the parking lot won't give you the time of day for less than $20 /hr here...or a flat rate that is similar..
Some of those farming or meat jobs may pay poorly...idk...

There was a case here in Georgia where a poultry plant was raided and the company substantially jacked up its starting pay and still couldn't attract enough native-born workers to staff the plant. 

And my mother likes to tell the story of a North Carolina farmer she was chatting with who told her that native-born workers he tried to hire invariably quit quickly--some even walked off before completing the first day. 

The wage issue may not be as big a thing for all undocumented workers as it once was, but it still is very much a thing.  And these workers are still very much exploited by employers (often large corporate ones), and these employers face very little risk for their actions. 

It's also worth asking why people take such amazing risks to come to this country--not just with people who come to work but especially with asylum seekers--and take a look at US foreign policy and see how that might be pushing people to abandon their homelands.  The US has a long and ugly history of exploitation and abuse in Central America--maybe we should be looking at that as well before placing all the blame squarely on all those scary brown people.

 

[boji]

immigrants are doing sh!t jobs no one else will do

Doubtful truck drivers and factory workers will simply 'learn to code' and avoid detestable jobs.

 

[boji]

Lot of roofers look really happy from what I've seen.

For some jobs, think you're right.  Decade ago took a pt job in the Southern Rockies as an exterior painter.  Beautiful views on top of those houses I didn't own.  8)

 

[crazydoc]

For some jobs, think you're right.  Decade ago took a pt job in the Southern Rockies as an exterior painter.  Beautiful views on top of those houses I didn't own.  8)

in 1963 I worked in the lettuce fields in AZ with the braceros. They had the good jobs - picking and packing the lettuce heads (because they had the skills). We few gabachos got to windrow the 50# boxes and load them onto the trucks. $1 an hour, lived in old army barracks 20 miles from town, and owed the company store. Good learning experience.