The Ultimate Analogue Desk

[Gettestudios]

Very good points guys. As i said never said it would be easy or cheap!  Automation aside from hardware is based in software. I am fortunate to have resources near me who know that aspect very well (both the hardware as well as programming) Although they are not in the audio industry. As i said i am still very much in the "research" phase here and every one of you have brought up good points  thank you....

 

[abechap024]

I think it would be a totally expensive project. It seems like the response of everyone is that its not possible. But we all have to agree, the technology is available isn't it? Yes its probably way more time than the average DIY is going to spend. But with unlimited time and budget, any one of us could make it could happen.
I would have good faders
Then the Digi style knobs for all the analog eq/compression (except change those ugly ass mushroom knobs!!)

I am probably a little nieve, something like the distressor is digitally controlled so wouldn't it be as easy(or hard) as wiring the encoders up to a memory function?

I do like the Idea of motors on all the knobs, but motors wear out.
Faders with motors are a must!

 

[0dbfs]

Will pcb's and full kits be available to forum members?

Best,
j

 

[StephenGiles]

My Behringer does everything I will ever need : : :

 

[Gettestudios]

Wow the opposition to even starting this project is far greater then even i had imagined. So many reasons to just drop the topic. To much money, not enough skill, not enough resources not enough etc....

Well, I am still heading down the path, regardless.... Thanks to those who support this project...

The Metal work: Some one could really make that kind of money building a cabinet? I should open up shop then...

There are way to many resources to get custom flat panels from (silk screened and colored to your desire) at very reasonable rates. I also have had extensive experience in metal  forming (Aluminum, steel etc) thanks to my Fathers Hobbies of Hot Rods, Knife and armor building(Museum replicas) I also have woodworking experience in custom cabinets and furniture making. With that experience along with the multitude of aluminum pieces available cheaply on the market (Extrusions, Panels etc..) i am sure i can bring the cabinet cost way down to a far more reasonable build cost.

There are going to be pricy "pieces" in a console this big with with huge feature sets, but should never be an excuse to not build it.... BUT even at my many would say humble starting point, it will not cost 2M to build... It comes down to mindset and approach.

Can we please move on from why not to build it and get to the guts of this thing? I did not want this to become a debate of why not but rather a good debate/discussion of what should be in it, or how it "could/should" be done. A collective of ideas and approaches.

I can assure you, that i will hammer on, this will not be a here today and gone and forgotten thread tomorrow.....

My hope is that this thread becomes deep enough it gains its own section in the forum, under its own heading.

Now back to the first topic:

MICPRE: I do think the THAT 1570 as a front end may work very well here, it specs out right and cost (a new thread buzz word) is relatively low given the sonic quality it provides. When coupled with the 1571 it offers the kind of control we are looking for digitally.

any ideas here?

Joel

PS: YES all pcbs be available to forum members as they get completed

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Wow the opposition to even starting this project is far greater then even i had imagined.

It's not opposition. It's a warning. You are very optimistic and thus tend to undervalue some difficulties.

I also have had extensive experience in metal  forming (Aluminum, steel etc) thanks to my Fathers Hobbies of Hot Rods, Knife and armor building(Museum replicas)

This reminds me of my days in North Africa, when the government decided to manufacture CRT's, on the basis there was a factory with expertise in producing soda bottles...

 

[Gettestudios]

Abbey- LOL point well taken.  I heed the warnings, but lust for the adventure anyway.....

I do not know how i have undervalued the difficulties? I know this is a hard road, so please do not take my optimism as a disregard to it.

I truly do appreciate the honest responses i have gotten and i do take them into consideration. My determination drives me to continue....

 

[sahib]

You can have all the determination but how much cash have you got for the prototype?

What is your timescale?

How old are you?

 

[klett]

Chief Black Cloud here...

I've worked closely with a number of console manufacturers over the years and I can tell you that the margins are thin and you are completely underestimating the amount of work and your various associated costs... faders, metal work, custom pots and switches, knobs that don't suck, metering, connectors, power supplies and on and on ...  but optimism is a great thing and before you bankrupt yourself or simply give up you will learn a tremendous amount of stuff and that may be worth the time and effort.  I'll bet some money you'll never build it though. 

It's not as if the engineering people at SSL or Neve have simply not looked at all the cost saving items you have described...  and when they come up with a console product they can amortize their design and development costs over 100 copies.  BTW Neither of those manufacturers built a large format "all-functions-automated" analog console...  although the Neve Genesys is somewhat automated beyond switches and faders and has snapshot recalls for a lot of functions like EQ if you have the cards fitted.

Fully all-functions-automated large format analog desks... there are only two systems that I know of that had any success.  One was the Harrison Series 10 / Series 12.  The series 12 can still be purchased with an analog back-end but most of them are digital and they are geared for film.  The other system was the Euphonix CS 2000 / CS 3000 and those did pretty well for a time but Euphonix has moved into digital.  Others?  Yes, the MCI 900 series that never happened. Yes, the Olive that was too far ahead of it's time (and only did recall anyway).  Yes, the Trident Di-An that actually worked and sounded quite good but was a failure as a product...

For anything anyone would ever want a copy of,  you are looking at several years of development and a half million bucks, if pay yourself $5 an hour.  The software for this thing could be half of that cost all said and done...  and I think I am grossly underestimating because you will have to hire people who have some experience which will blow your budget  or learn it all yourself which will blow your time frame.

but with all of this I say forge ahead - the best lessons are those learned through failure

I would suggest you look at the Euphonix CS3000 analog desk.  You have a control surface and a rack full of cards and everything is fully automated and fully recallable.  Your controls are simple linear pots since no audio goes though them - put a ring of LED's around them for feedback...  page functions to reduce knob count and so on.  You can buy a used CS3000 for $5000 USD or so - take it apart and put it back together - learn a bunch and then sell it for what you paid for it and get an education for free.

 

[fazeka]

Sounds like someone needs to speak with Brian Roth.

 

[abechap024]

I say we start with a design for ONE channel.try and think about building the whole smeggin console allll at once. Ever single step is going to be huge in its own way. Also, I don't think anyone in their right mind is planning to build a fully discrete, full instant recall console with 72 channels and what 48 busses? Haha. But it might be fun to think of maybe one channel. People then could rack it or convince everyone at their family reunion that they must build a channel a piece of die, and hope you come from a big family!

Seriously one channel. 72 is just.....a little c r azzzy to think about at this point.

weird idea and sorry for a tangent but I was thinking of you know how the SSL matrix turns your analog gear into "digital inserts?" well what if everytime you saved your session or whatever, It would send out a sweeep and tone and save the IR of the equipment. and based on the profile of the equipment that is pre programed in the software it knows how the setting are set on equipment and can tell the user later when they open thier project. The only thing it doesn't do is move the knobs for them!!

eyy??

I say go for it! One step at a time, because to build a digital interface to connect this all together would take a team of people!

Abe

 

[Gettestudios]

Deep breath.... I have been in this industry in some way or form for more then 20 yrs. First paid gig was when i was 15, not that it should matter but for those who wish to know, i am 36. I have been involved on both sides of the fence (manufacturer/user).

I have to in someway take the hit for how i approached this in this forum, that may be the cause to some of the replies i have gotten, not that i am offended. I should have approached it differently...

My intent as stated before was just an open discussion on the topic, regardless of cost, regardless of what we feel is posable, just a discussion to open the possibilities and maybe come up with a unique way of getting it done... lol I have never thought of this project as one for the market, but i must admitt after this i just might start thinking that way    :

Time scale? some time before i die....    I would like to be using it in the next year or 2.

Budget? C'mon Its like me telling my wife just exactly how much i will spend on the toy in the garage.... it is never complete ;D

Chief Black Cloud, Thank you for your honesty and insight, i will look into the CS3000 closer... BUT i admit i may be bankrupt i may even be single and homeless but in the end i will have a boat to ride on... with 72 faders... I mean that in kind humor. Seriously though i do understand your points and they are very valid. The experience in end is what i seek. come failure or success.

Boji: I hear ya and yes all you did was put more coal in the burner... In the end, when you fire up that desk for the first time, that feeling will be priceless and well worth the hell, that i can promise ya. Not many climb mount Everest but those who do, have seen/felt a part of life  reserved for the select few who seek it.

ABE, lets get started.....

 

[Gettestudios]

Chae - Thanks for the kind post, of course i would love to be that success story...

But what i am up against is clearly mount everest or at least metaphorically speaking.

 

[abechap024]

So I'm curious, anyone know off hand what kind of technology is being used to control analog circuits

I know there are

edit: http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an124.pdf


Digital switches
Digital volume controls

is there more?
And will we have to send every single parimiter we want to automate through a digital control? there might be an easier - less insane way of doing it. Possibly IR sweeps with motors. Hows that for analog!?

Any otherway to move analog knobs? mouses in cages?
What we really need to design is a Digital knob that controls a resistor value all in one cheap and easy to use package. Didn't they invent something like that?? they are going to use if for memory in computers or something? so the memory just stays without having to reboot each time.

If we had small self contained digital potentiometers, that could be controled via a built on encoder or a computer signal. Shoot then its a matter of patch working exsisting console designs and using our new industry revolutionizing Digital Potentiometers. wooooooo. We need to come up with a cool name for them first, and of course make tee shirts and promote it all. Lets get a Booth at AES, make brouchers, then were design it all at the last minute.

AC

 

[blue_luke]

Look guys, the gentleman is asking for design inputs, all it is going to cost US, the onlookers, is a bit of time reading, with interest, and supplying ideas and suggestions.

I say Gettestudios go all the way for it!

I built myself a 12in 4 bus stereo out from components taken from some various retired consoles in the mid 80s. I still have it and it never got <finished> in the sense that I learned and experimented so much from it!

You have my support, interest and admiration.

But as some already suggested, there are a few first step to be taken before committing metal and silicon to the project.
So here is officially my first input toward your project.
Here is some suggestions about how I would go about it.

- buy some tabloid size paper to draw, sketch, doodle etc... 1 tonne seems a reasonable starting quantity!  
- Get and learn to work with a mechanical CAD software. I have no recommendation but the guys et the shop here swears by SolidWorks
- Get and learn a good schematic-PCB software  I use Protel 99 ( about 3K$ at the time) but I have switched to KiCad, an amazingly good soft and FREE!!

With these tools you will be able to THINK your dream and put it to paper.

When I start designing a new project, I spend a good deal of time just <using> the thing in my head and on paper. From these thinking and bull sessions a certain consistent pattern will emerge. Think of how you want to go about it. Forget schematics and technology for now, think about how YOU want to USE the thing.
You have to decide beforehand about things like:
- In line or split configuration WHY?
- how many AUX busses and WHY?
- what kind of EQ/shelving/peaking ? WHY?
- how many bands of EQ? WHY?
- Dynamic process on each channel (Gate/compressor/expander/limiter etc)?  WHY?
- how many busses? WHY?

By now you get the pattern... you check what the others do, you dream up your own version and then you auto criticize it until you are somewhat satisfied.
DON't try to solve all the problems at this stage! In fact, don't try to solve ANY problem at this stage, but DO identify them!! (Let's see, hmmmm.... placing the machine control here seems reasonable, but then I can not get easy access to the intercom/master monitoring section... problem!  )


Now go ahead, buy some plywood and MDF and make an actual size mock up of the board and draw with a felt pen the actual layout of it to check on your ergonomic issues and see if it suits you. At this stage moving thing around is easy. And the size of it might makes you reconsider a few items to the agenda....

Now try to identify the section that you think will be the most troublesome to design/test/build and tackle this one first.
SChematics, experimentation, prototype etc....   until it works satisfactorily.
In my case, the EQ is my beef!

And keep us posted... this thread could be your journal
I whish you all the luck, and I will help you in the capacities I have.
Luc
-

 

[abechap024]

looks like most digital potentiometers don't have very good power handling. What if we used the digital potentiometer to control an LED and vacol. Certainly not a new idea, but it should work I imagine....
Maybe just build it all in to one easy to use package
AC

 

[Gettestudios]

Luc - THANK YOU! I will do that, get a pad and start drawing..... I will post the idea's as they become more solidified, this will help create a "visual" of the concept... as well as to begin a real "spec"

ABE: I am currently doing some research on PGA's and how they could be implemented in the console in a satisfactory manner (zipper noise could be an issue) I will share what i find...

Likewise my "radical"  approach to cooling and longevity. Liquid cooling. As engineers the biggest issue when dealing with design in both anolog and digital circuits is heat and how just having it present affects the operation and life span of the unit. if we can truly regulate the environment/temp (by keeping it at the ideal operating temp at all times) this opens the door to outside the box thinking on design. Just something to ponder....

 

[jensenmann]

Ok, so if you are serious to get into consoles I´d propose you this: go into console maintenance for a while and learn that way as much as possible about what, what not and how to do. Building a console was (of course) a dream of mine, too, like for so many others here (though totally out of sight for my abilities, to be honest). By luck my life turned into a somewhat other direction and now I´m a good bit into console maintenance because in the facility I work at are app. 20 analog consoles. Working on these desks gave me a much deeper insight than just thinking about how to design a desk. If I had to design a desk today with my newly gained insight it would be a so much better startingpoint.
Now just to encourage you: I posted a link to ADT before. These desks are engineered by one guy, a truely genius in electronics. He´s doing this since end of 70s. It is possible, so go for it.

 

[helterbelter]

Gettestudios,

I've followed the discussion you started these last few days. That you don't back out, and you keep insisting that your ideas are not just a quick brainfart, is something that I respect a lot. Especially since you're new here.

Anyhow, this discussion started me thinking ;

As far as I understood from what you've told us, you are experienced with computers and electronics regarding readout and control. Would it be possible for you to design an interface and a program that could control the fets and VCA's in an SSL console ? IOW, to come up with a program with just a tiny but of hardware as replacement for the old SSL computers ?

 

[Rochey]

How about a microcontroller, encoder, precision DAC and VCA?

Problem is, yu could end up with hundreds of them. How do you make a master controlled speak to eahc of these smaller ones?