The Vaccine

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scott2000

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Can't forget Black Flag

Rollins: In the Black Flag days, we had skinhead problems in the lower half of America. Florida, especially. One night in 1986, they mugged our soundman, kicked his head in and cut the lines to our PA. The cops came, shut the show down, and told us we were the problem and we had an hour to get over their county line. The skinheads were standing behind them, flipping us off.
 

L´Andratté

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Hahaha Dualflip and JR you´re priceless, what would Big Pharma do without your support?
Someone has to look after them, after all, or communists would come and steal all their beautiful hard earned money...
(and spend it all on drugs probably!)
Humoristic!
 

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Tubetec

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Big pharma's profits from vaccines are only a tiny piece of the puzzle , as pointed out it only amounts to a marginal increase over all , however look at the sales of anti anxiety and anti depressant meds over the same period , thats far from a drop in the ocean , with certain pills prescriptions up by 50% or more . Whats also fairly well recognised is once people start up on mood stabilisers the vast majority will remain on them forever . The only reason I could see to attempt to try and defend pharma is either its part of your investment portfolio or you've become addicted to the crap there pedaling .
 

JohnRoberts

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This may be a tough (pill?) to swallow, but it is possible to be critical of big Pharma (as I have) and respect IP rights.

For just one of my recent criticisms, the big Pharma covid vaccine strategy looks more like a subscription strategy where we will be expected to get jabbed annually (not anally).

JR
 

Dualflip

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This may be a tough (pill?) to swallow, but it is possible to be critical of big Pharma (as I have) and respect IP rights.

For just one of my recent criticisms, the big Pharma covid vaccine strategy looks more like a subscription strategy where we will be expected to get jabbed annually (not anally).

JR
John, its not that you can be a critical of big Pharma, it is that you are not 100% against every major institution what makes them angry, everything from goverment, companies, entrepreneurs, all of them are intrinsically evil, people shouldn't be allowed to make a huge profit out of anything, which is why you are getting so much heat.
 

calaverasgrande

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It took the drug industry 10 years and huge capital investments to develop mRNA vaccine technology, they are maybe just now breaking even (if that?). mRNA technology is very promising for addressing far more human diseases than just the current corona virus strains (maybe even cancer?). If business has to operate under the threat of future game changing technology being given away to competitors, why bother making huge investments in time and capital?
All this hand wringing is really unnecessary.
Biopharma is a cutthroat competitive business.
It's like the dot com techbro culture, except nobody is talking about information 'wants to be free' or other such high ideals.
Instead it's all "how do we make money from this before the guys a couple office parks over".
I used to do IT work all over South San Francisco and Redwood City. Gilead, Nektar, and many others.
Never seen a business sector with so much turnover, poaching of talent and just ruthless behavior. Also tons of money flying around.
I am not worried about those guys making money. When you get to companies like Roche and J&J Moderna etc they are already harvesting massive amounts of profit from IP that should have passed into public domain years ago. They are fine.
Though it is telling that while the whole world is being chewed up by a pandemic, some people still worry about the viability of profits.
 

JohnRoberts

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This is a very old conflict between medical innovations and "the greater good". The most visible tension is surrounding drug prices and the US historically pays higher prices for the same drugs as the rest of the world. We are a wealthy nation and can afford to be generous toward subsidizing poor nations.

That said we need to be careful to not kill the golden goose by starving it of future profits from capital investment (like defeating IP protection). While contrary to modern social justice opinion, keeping big Pharma innovation healthy does serve the greater good.

Of course opinions vary.

JR
 

john12ax7

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Usually with patents it is the one who invests that own the patents, the one who takes the financial risk gets the reward.

In this case the government put up a lot of the money, it would be rather silly to then have companies keep the patents. Subsidizing private profits with public funds is exactly the type of crony capitalism that is all too rampant and needs to be eliminated.

Here is a list of who got what
 

Banzai

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Big pharma doesn't innovate. They buy new drugs developed by biotech startups or universities. mRNA was developed by 2 researchers at Penn university. No-one funded them:


Americans also don't subsidise developing nations. They can barely afford the drugs themselves:

 

JohnRoberts

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Hank Greenberg (famous rich guy) and a bunch of intl business leaders has written a letter to President Biden suggesting that the US pioneer a world immunization program. If President Biden wants to give stuff away, donate the vaccines not the IP, which will only benefit China.

The attack on IP rights is another aspect of class warfare.
 

Banzai

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Hank Greenberg (famous rich guy) and a bunch of intl business leaders has written a letter to President Biden suggesting that the US pioneer a world immunization program. If President Biden wants to give stuff away, donate the vaccines not the IP, which will only benefit China.

The attack on IP rights is another aspect of class warfare.
This is funny. Instead of sharing the IP to allow others to make the vaccines themselves, you want the US taxpayer to fund a world immunization program?

Corporate welfare state gone mad.

Cyrano's right. Must be something in the water.
 

scott2000

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Big pharma doesn't innovate. They buy new drugs developed by biotech startups or universities. mRNA was developed by 2 researchers at Penn university. No-one funded them:
No one funding them is difficult to grasp unless maybe saying no biotech company funded them??? Who funds the Universities??...Here's a mention regarding DARPA 2 decades ago..

"DARPA has invested heavily in this technology. In fact, the United States’ rudimentary, experimental surge capability to make vaccines is almost entirely attributable to the DOD research. DNA vaccines are now being pursued by many U.S. biotechnology and pharmaceutical companies. The Army should keep abreast of this research"

 

JohnRoberts

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This is funny. Instead of sharing the IP to allow others to make the vaccines themselves, you want the US taxpayer to fund a world immunization program?

Corporate welfare state gone mad.

Cyrano's right. Must be something in the water.
Why does everything get personal fast?

I merely shared what Hank Greenberg wrote.... i.e. giving away vaccine is less harmful to US than giving away the IP that will do nothing to help poor people. NOT what I want.

I will not speculate about what you want, but hope you can calm down.

JR
 

Banzai

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No one funding them is difficult to grasp unless maybe saying no biotech company funded them??? Who funds the Universities??...Here's a mention regarding DARPA 2 decades ago..
No-one funded their mRNA research. Not even the university itself, who demoted her because they thought the research was useless. She did most of it on her own time.

Only received a salary as an associate professor:

"Kariko sent out countless grant applications and received countless rejections in her pursuit of developing mRNA technology, and with no money coming in, the University of Pennsylvania demoted her.

At this point, with their reputation skewered, most scientists would let go of their research. But Kariko, despite being newly diagnosed with cancer, pressed on. From when Kariko was demoted from the University of Pennsylvania in 1995 to when she was kicked out of the lab in 2013, her salary barely changed, even as health insurance and parking costs went up — she was making less than the lab technicians she worked with."


 

JohnRoberts

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Cough... Darpa funded early research into mRNA vaccine research, because of the huge potential, but back then it was considered speculative.

JR
 

Banzai

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Why does everything get personal fast?

I merely shared what Hank Greenberg wrote.... i.e. giving away vaccine is less harmful to US than giving away the IP that will do nothing to help poor people. NOT what I want.

I will not speculate about what you want, but hope you can calm down.

JR
Why do you take everything so personally?

Maurice Greenberg is the CEO of an insurance company. As a billionaire with a vested interest, of course he thinks the US taxpayer should foot the bill instead of Big pharma.

What's your reason?
 

Banzai

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Cough... Darpa funded early research into mRNA vaccine research, because of the huge potential, but back then it was considered speculative.

JR
In 2013. 8 years after the discoveries made by Penn researchers made its implementation possible.

The creation of Moderna was entirely based on their research:

"In 2008, he began researching messenger RNA (mRNA), building on the long-ignored work of Hungarian researcher Katalin Karikó and Drew Weissman, an immunologist at the University of Pennsylvania. In 2010, his discovery that modified mRNA, the molecule that gives DNA instructions on how to behave, could be inserted into cells to produce proteins opened up a world of possibilities for the medical uses of mRNA technology.

It was a finding big enough to attract capital, allowing him to found a biotechnology company in Cambridge, Massachusetts, with Timothy Springer, who like Rossi, was a professor at Harvard Medical school, and Robert Langer, an inventor, and professor at MIT."

 
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JohnRoberts

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Why do you take everything so personally?
I guess I'm just a snowflake
Maurice Greenberg is the CEO of an insurance company. As a billionaire with a vested interest, of course he thinks the US taxpayer should foot the bill instead of Big pharma.
Why does big insurance care about big Pharma....
What's your reason?
For what? You are criticizing me for what you ASSume I believe.

JR
 

scott2000

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In 2013. 8 years after the discoveries made by Penn researchers made its implementation possible.
It probably is more complicated than meets the eye. Wouldn't be surprising if some other things were at play and not just an ignorance to new technologies.
This is from 98 it looks like....

"I want to know what is on the inside," she says. To do this, DARPA-funded researchers are developing identification techniques based on RNA analysis. Unlike DNA, which is now used to identify unknown organisms, RNA is plentiful inside cells and need not be amplified before identification begins. And messenger RNA molecules reveal not only what a microorganism is, but what toxins it is making. Once the biological agent has been identified, how do you combat it? Vaccinating people before they are exposed is one answer. This is the strategy the military is betting on. Last year, the US military launched a programme to develop vaccines against potential biological weapons. It will create jabs for diseases for which none exist, such as Ebola, and improve existing vaccines-including the 30-yearold anthrax vaccine being given to 2.4 million American soldiers.

 

Banzai

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I guess I'm just a snowflake
Maybe so.

Why does big insurance care about big Pharma....
Insurance companies collude with Pharma to drive up drug and premium costs. They care because profits.


For what? You are criticizing me for what you ASSume I believe.

JR
Your position is clear and coherent :)
 

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