The Vaccine

[crazydoc]

Wonder if flu will be tested more or if it'll be voluntary. And, who wins?
H1N1 or Covid if that's ever a thing.

As far as I know, covid and influenza tests are both voluntary. I guess now "get tested, vaccinated or lose your job" is still voluntary, because there is still the choice not to do it.

If anyone has info to the contrary, please post.

 

[scott2000]

As far as I know, covid and influenza tests are both voluntary.

I mainly meant by doctors. Testing for flu hasn't been as widespread as it could have been in the past from what I understand. Is this going to change I wonder.

 

[crazydoc]

I mainly meant by doctors. Testing for flu hasn't been as widespread as it could have been in the past from what I understand. Is this going to change I wonder.

Influenza rapid tests have been around for years, along with antiviral treatment. The diagnosis was usually made clinically, with upper respiratory symptoms, muscle aches and fever, during the winter flu season when there was a high prevalence of flu in the community, and a test wasn't really necessary, so it's not unusual your relatives were not tested if they were ill before the 2019-2020 season.

This of course all changed last year, with the advent of covid, which can present with many of the same symptoms. Now I expect flu tests are used much more to rule it in or out. That's why a single test would be very useful, that can test for both diseases at once, and differentiate between them.

 

[scott2000]

Makes sense. Still, it will be interesting if the 2 exist together and how it may be determined where fatalities are concerned.
The flu counting has been a bit chaotic imo. I've even posted stuff before that mentions how the elderly in many cases don't even show symptoms of flu because their physiology is just different than a younger person and this has played into undercounting flu. Maybe this will change with the new tests.

Why is it difficult to know exactly how many people die from flu? ​

There are several factors that make it difficult to determine accurate numbers of deaths caused by flu regardless of reporting. Some of the challenges in counting flu associated deaths include the following:

• the sheer volume of deaths to be counted;
• the lack of testing (not everyone that dies with an influenza-like illness is tested for influenza);
• and the different coding of deaths (influenza-associated deaths often are a result of complications secondary to underlying medical problems, and this may be difficult to sort out).

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/faq.htm#deaths

 

[scott2000]

https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/91648

 

[scott2000]

====
I was willing to disagree with my personal doctor and won several of those debates (using pub med abstracts to back my positions). In my judgement she was an excellent doctor but often operated from common or popular wisdom, while I dug deeper into topics of personal interest to me.

JR

Heard a good one....

Told my Dr. that I broke my arm in two places. He tells me to quit going to them

 

[crazydoc]

The major reason everybody should wear a mask now:

"So the CDC should actually be saying, 'Look, the reason we're doing indoor mandates is because the unvaccinated cannot be trusted to put on masks. That's why the vaccinated also have to be putting on masks.'"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/u...at-risk-doctors-say/ar-AAMNODk?ocid=bingcovid
Also, even if everybody got vaccinated today, the surge would continue for another month until vaccine immunity took full effect. Mask up, and stay away from people as much as possible. We are in for some shit again.

 

[Banzai]

when did those vaccines begin rolling out again?View attachment 83277

Term "Delta Variant" was created by the WHO in May 2021. Why would anyone search for it before then?

Question: Where were all the variants in 2020 if the unvax'd are the main driver?

British, South African, Brazilian, and Indian variants are all from 2020.

These are shit arguments.

 

[Tubetec]

I've been masking up religiously in indoor public spaces since March 2020 .

Today there was an interesting stat delivered by the chief executive of the HSE , in the last two weeks 78% of cases are among unvaccinated , 22% of cases are in vaccinated people . As this is only a short term snapshot of the situation , he urged caution .

The overoptomistic claims about vaccination may well have led some vaccinated people to drop their guard early , as were seeing now its not just the unvaxed who have the propensity to carry and spread the virus but also fully vaccinated people . Again the lower death rates due to Delta are being attributed to vaccination but it may well be at least in part due to the variant itself being more transmissible and less lethal .

 

[hodad]

due to the variant itself being more transmissible and less lethal .

More transmissible? I think that's well documented. Less lethal? Please show some data. I have seen nothing to indicate that delta is less lethal in the unvaxxed population, but I may have missed something.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Lets keep it civil guys...
======
Indeed Delta is still lethal to unvaccinated patients, not as dangerous for the fully vaccinated. Thus my ongoing campaign to get more people vaccinated around the world.

Just look at some world news. India where delta variant is dominant and raging just passed 400k (reported?) deaths. While there are suggestions that India's actual death toll could be several times that.

The ‘law of declining virulence’ is attributed to Theobald Smith, an American scientist who communicated his ideas on the subject in the late 1800s. In a nutshell, Smith’s ‘law of declining virulence’ proposes that pathogens, such as viruses, become less virulent over time as they evolve todo less harm to their host — after all, what good is a bedridden or dead host in transmitting disease? If a pathogen is less able to transmit, it is less able to replicate: in evolutionary terms, we

This is not a hard law so pathogens can evolve to become more or less virulent.... less virulent helps them spread successfully, but not really a law, even though some old guy called it a law... lots of that going around.

JR

 

[scott2000]

Just look at some world news. India where delta variant is dominant and raging just passed 400k (reported?) deaths. While there are suggestions that India's actual death toll could be several times that.

Their population is pretty large compared to ours. You'd think it would be much higher.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/

 

[hodad]

Lets keep it civil guys...
======

JR

I thought my response was civil enough--I just wanted to know if there was evidence to support Tubetec's statement. I do appreciate you looking up Theobald Smith--I've actually heard people posit this theory in the past, but I never knew its source. From what I can tell, it does not seem to be a hard and fast law at all. And there's this:

India Covid variant may increase risk of hospital admission, early data suggests​

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...isk-of-hospital-admission-early-data-suggests
(The article's from June, so not the latest & greatest.)

I would guess it's pretty tough to get a good read on relative virulence due to the numerous variables at play, but considering that in many countries the most vulnerable are already vaccinated yet we're still seeing high levels of hospitalization--I certainly wouldn't take delta lightly.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I was triggered by the scatological reference.
=====
The covid news is fast and loose (probably to scare more people into getting vaccinated, but my mind reading skills are not as good as others).

I saw one article today about breakthrough infections in vaccinated people (in MA). I had to read the entire article to learn that only 4 of those people were hospitalized and zero of them died.

It appears new mask wearing orders for vaccinated people is so we don't infect unvaccinated people should we become infected with a breakthrough delta variant infection. As often happens their messaging about this is not very clear.

JR

 

[hodad]

It appears new mask wearing orders for vaccinated people is so we don't infect unvaccinated people should we become infected with a breakthrough delta variant infection. As often happens their messaging about this is not very clear.

JR

There's certainly more to it than that--ranging from giving the virus fewer opportunities to mutate, to not wanting to contract COVID--even if the vaccine mutes the misery. There are also plenty of vaxxed people who are a lot more vulnerable than maybe you or I. Masks protect them as well.

And yes--we wouldn't be looking at mask mandates if it weren't for folks who haven't gotten the shot. But emphasizing that will only intensify the negative attitudes some of the vaxxed have towards the Great Unvaxxed. As I pointed out elsewhere, encouraging anger and scapegoating is probably not going to improve vaccination rates, and it has the potential to get pretty ugly.

Of course, when De Santis is overplaying his anti-mask BS in the midst of some of the highest case numbers his state has seen, it's obvious that some people in this country have little or no concern about stoking division and exacerbating an already challenging situation.

 

[JohnRoberts]

There's certainly more to it than that--ranging from giving the virus fewer opportunities to mutate, to not wanting to contract COVID--even if the vaccine mutes the misery.

to repeat the masks are primarily to prevent infected individuals from shedding covid virus on unvaccinated others, not protecting us (vaccinated) from contracting it. The "reducing opportunities to mutate" seems an obscure (secondary or tertiary effect). There should be more pressing and obvious personal reasons to get vaccinated.

There are also plenty of vaxxed people who are a lot more vulnerable than maybe you or I. Masks protect them as well.

From us giving them covid?

And yes--we wouldn't be looking at mask mandates if it weren't for folks who haven't gotten the shot. But emphasizing that will only intensify the negative attitudes some of the vaxxed have towards the Great Unvaxxed. As I pointed out elsewhere, encouraging anger and scapegoating is probably not going to improve vaccination rates, and it has the potential to get pretty ugly.

I am open for suggestions. I am not having much luck convincing un-vaxed forum members.

Of course, when De Santis is overplaying his anti-mask BS in the midst of some of the highest case numbers his state has seen, it's obvious that some people in this country have little or no concern about stoking division and exacerbating an already challenging situation.

[political blather]
This isn't the first time we have heard about the imminent demise of FL (or TX)... Covid is not as challenging as it was over a year ago. For chuckles I looked at how many untested migrants from our southern border were being relocated to FL (a bunch but not openly reported). This transportation away from the border is funded by private organizations (follow that money). These migrants surely need to be tested and vaccinated before releasing them into the US. Maybe quarantine covid positive migrants, and everyone they they were in close proximity to ( like all of them?). Maybe we need contact tracing for them?

The Biden administration returned some two dozen cubans caught escaping actual political oppresion, while releasing some 50k migrants who crossed the southern border without a court date. [/political blather]

Be well

JR



JR

 

[hodad]

to repeat the masks are primarily to prevent infected individuals from shedding covid virus on unvaccinated others, not protecting us (vaccinated) from contracting it.

We do it to "promote the general welfare", as somebody said somewhere.

Don't forget: slowing the delta variant is also an economic concern, and the current surge also puts even more strain on an already taxed healthcare system. It's not just the unvaxxed who stand to be hurt by the current surge.

I don't actually disagree that it's mostly about protecting the unvaxxed (and let's not forget that you wearing a mask does provide some amt. of protection against the virus. It also can make it more comfortable for those around you to wear a mask(or more awkward for them not to), which protects you even further)--and not as much about protecting the vaxxed. Maybe I'm pulling my weight in this deal to protect others who are unwilling to pull theirs, but the cost of not doing this outweighs (IMO) the inconvenience of masking.

 

[Tubetec]

A quick search of ' is delta variant less lethal' reveals mostly articles pointing towards less lethal outcomes , then again if you choose to find stories that say its more lethal you can quite easily find those too .

I wouldnt have accused Hodad of any incivility in his post , although what I would say is the way the quote was nipped out does seem to suggest I was stating fact which I wasnt .

'Again the lower death rates due to Delta are being attributed to vaccination but it may well be at least in part (due to the variant itself being more transmissible and less lethal )'

 

[JohnRoberts]

I don't think we have evidence of it being less lethal in nations with low vaccination rates, like India.

Delta also has a days shorter incubation period improving it's ability to spread faster.

JR

 

[hodad]

It appears new mask wearing orders for vaccinated people is so we don't infect unvaccinated people should we become infected with a breakthrough delta variant infection. As often happens their messaging about this is not very clear.

JR

I think your perspective here has become a little clearer to me. It's not that I ever didn't recognize the facts (minor quibbling aside), but I'm probably more accepting of new mask mandates than you--regardless of the fact that I did my part not to bring them back.

So we've seen some things happening lately: workplace vaccine mandates instituted, bars in SF requiring proof of vaccine, and NYC doing similar for certain establishments. So in that bastion of billionaire "liberalism," the Washington Post, I see today these editorial headlines:

New York City just became the club of the elite vaccinated​

and

Stop harassing the unvaccinated

So that's the right-wing response to some small attempts to get the unvaxxed to bear the onus of their decisions.

And this is no surprise--we've heard the same sort of thing before. As I opined upstream, Biden's masking policy was likely so muddled because he did not want to provoke responses like these. There's a certain class of pundits and politicians who think it's to their political advantage to play these games with people's lives, and unfortunately there are way too many people who are happy to follow along. They're not going to get vaxxed, and they're not going to wear masks or take other precautions either (obviously not true of all unvaxxed, but more the case than not.)

I think we may be headed in a better direction now--time will tell. If certain politicians and pundits (who are by and large vaccinated themselves) would cease their misinformation campaigns, and if certain right wing state govts would back off their BS anti-vax and anti-mask laws, we might get there faster.