The Vaccine

[AnalogPackrat]

I think everyone acknowledges that the "official" recovered numbers are a floor not a ceiling. I think the issue is the different immunity half-lives between vaccinated individuals and sick-but-recovered individuals. I would have to go back and check, but off hand half life for natural immunity was roughly 90 days, and for vaccinated individuals was close to 170 days.

Wrong. Maybe you need to expand your sources. There are now multiple studies showing that not only is natural immunity more robust against covid, including its mutations (which should be entirely expected given how a response to an actual virus differs from that of a single modified version of the spike protein), but is also much more durable. Here's one.

https://invesbrain.com/natural-immunity-lasts-for-at-least-18-months-study/
And, no, I don't see that "most people" agree on the meaning of all of the flawed statistics regarding cases and deaths "with" Covid. Clearly there are conclusions that can be drawn and they aren't in support of blindly applying an experimental treatment to billions of humans.

 

[scott2000]

Should I go on?

Well...All the links are tied to Open Society Foundations so probably a dead end with the whole Soros boogey man thing... but good info..

 

[john12ax7]

Another possibility (and quite likely given that we're two years into this thing) is that the person who didn't get it had already been exposed "naturally" and had robust immunity.

Extremely unlikely when two people live together and have spent the majority of these last two years in close quarters doing the same activities. The odds are extremely against what you ate suggesting.

Look I get it, I'm no fan of big pharma, nor the handling of the pandemic in general. But can we get a little more scientific approach on here? One where we draw conclusions based on data presented? Instead of the other way around with preconceived notions and conclusions that are immutable? I don't know why both sides have turned this into such a tribal team issue.

 

[scott2000]

But can we get a little more scientific approach on here?

???

It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation.

 

[john12ax7]

Skepticism is good. But why are so many only skeptical of the other team/tribe and not of their own ?

 

[crazydoc]

Wrong. Maybe you need to expand your sources. There are now multiple studies showing that not only is natural immunity more robust against covid, including its mutations (which should be entirely expected given how a response to an actual virus differs from that of a single modified version of the spike protein), but is also much more durable. Here's one.

Wrong. Studies of antibody and T-cell responses don't say anything about actual reinfection rates. There is much more to immunity than what we think we know, and we don't have good data yet for reinfection with omicron.

Comparison of Infection- and Vaccine-induced Immune Responses​

"A systematic review and meta-analysis including data from three vaccine efficacy trials and four observational studies from the US, Israel, and the United Kingdom, found no significant difference in the overall level of protection provided by infection as compared with protection provided by vaccination; this included studies from both prior to and during the period in which Delta was the predominant variant [79]. In this review, the randomized controlled trials appeared to show higher protection from mRNA vaccines whereas the observational studies appeared to show protection to be higher following infection.

A more recent analysis of data from a network of 187 hospitals in the United States found that, among more than 7,000 COVID-19–like illness hospitalizations whose prior infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days beforehand, there was a 5.5 times higher odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 among previously infected patients than among fully vaccinated patients [80]. This study included data on persons more recently infected and/or vaccinated than the studies in the systematic review, though the authors noted one limitation of the design was the potential of missing testing that may have occurred outside of the healthcare network.

The Office of National Statistics in the United Kingdom used data from a large-scale longitudinal community survey of COVID-19 to compare the risk of infection among fully vaccinated, partially vaccinated, unvaccinated/previously infected, and unvaccinated/uninfected persons during two different periods 1) when Alpha was the predominant variant (December 2020–May 2021) and 2) when Delta was the predominant variant (May–August 2021) [81]. Based on results that included over 26,000 RT-PCR positive tests, they found full vaccination to provide the greatest protection during the Alpha predominant period (79% vs. 65% reduction in risk), but equivalent protection from full vaccination and infection during the Delta predominant period (67% vs. 71% reduction in risk)."

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/vaccine-induced-immunity.html

 

[fallout]

Indeed, a who's who!


https://healthfeedback.org/claimrev...ims-about-the-covid-19-pandemic-and-vaccines/

https://healthfeedback.org/claimrev...t-covid-19-vaccines-weaken-the-immune-system/

Should I go on?

healthfeedback, Funded by:

https://sciencefeedback.co/partners-funders-donors/
google.. Facebook.. Tiktok.. etc..

A who's who, indeed...

Brought to you by:

PFIZER

 

[scott2000]

Skepticism is good. But why are so many only skeptical of the other team/tribe and not of their own

Not sure. I heard that propaganda is not used to convince you of something or to get you to believe something but to convince you that others are convinced or believe it......

or something like that... who knows really.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Wrong. Studies of antibody and T-cell responses don't say anything about actual reinfection rates. There is much more to immunity than what we think we know, and we don't have good data yet for reinfection with omicron.

Comparison of Infection- and Vaccine-induced Immune Responses​

"A systematic review and meta-analysis including data from three vaccine efficacy trials and four observational studies from the US, Israel, and the United Kingdom, found no significant difference in the overall level of protection provided by infection as compared with protection provided by vaccination; this included studies from both prior to and during the period in which Delta was the predominant variant [79]. In this review, the randomized controlled trials appeared to show higher protection from mRNA vaccines whereas the observational studies appeared to show protection to be higher following infection.

A more recent analysis of data from a network of 187 hospitals in the United States found that, among more than 7,000 COVID-19–like illness hospitalizations whose prior infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days beforehand, there was a 5.5 times higher odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 among previously infected patients than among fully vaccinated patients [80]. This study included data on persons more recently infected and/or vaccinated than the studies in the systematic review, though the authors noted one limitation of the design was the potential of missing testing that may have occurred outside of the healthcare network.

The Office of National Statistics in the United Kingdom used data from a large-scale longitudinal community survey of COVID-19 to compare the risk of infection among fully vaccinated, partially vaccinated, unvaccinated/previously infected, and unvaccinated/uninfected persons during two different periods 1) when Alpha was the predominant variant (December 2020–May 2021) and 2) when Delta was the predominant variant (May–August 2021) [81]. Based on results that included over 26,000 RT-PCR positive tests, they found full vaccination to provide the greatest protection during the Alpha predominant period (79% vs. 65% reduction in risk), but equivalent protection from full vaccination and infection during the Delta predominant period (67% vs. 71% reduction in risk)."

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/vaccine-induced-immunity.html

An old CDC meta-analysis of even older studies is far behind current understanding. And I'll add that my faith in the CDC has failed in the past two years. Their actions indicate motives not related to public health.

But, since you trust them, there's this.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm?s_cid=mm7104e1_w#contribAff
"What is added by this report?

During May–November 2021, case and hospitalization rates were highest among persons who were unvaccinated without a previous diagnosis. Before Delta became the predominant variant in June, case rates were higher among persons who survived a previous infection than persons who were vaccinated alone. By early October, persons who survived a previous infection had lower case rates than persons who were vaccinated alone."

 

[crazydoc]

From the same MMWR:
"This analysis integrated laboratory testing, hospitalization surveillance, and immunization registry data in two large states during May–November 2021, before widespread circulation of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant and before most persons had received additional or booster COVID-19 vaccine doses to protect against waning immunity. Rate estimates from the analysis describe different experiences stratified by COVID-19 vaccination status and previous COVID-19 diagnosis and during times when different SARS-CoV-2 variants predominated. Case rates were initially lowest among vaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis; however, after emergence of the Delta variant and over the course of time, incidence increased sharply in this group, but only slightly among both vaccinated and unvaccinated persons with previously diagnosed COVID-19 (6). Across the entire study period, persons with vaccine- and infection-derived immunity had much lower rates of hospitalization compared with those in unvaccinated persons. These results suggest that vaccination protects against COVID-19 and related hospitalization and that surviving a previous infection protects against a reinfection. Importantly, infection-derived protection was greater after the highly transmissible Delta variant became predominant, coinciding with early declining of vaccine-induced immunity in many persons (5). Similar data accounting for booster doses and as new variants, including Omicron, circulate will need to be assessed."

So the addition of booster doses has not yet been addressed, nor has the advent of the omicron variant, so the current understanding still lags far behind. But you are correct that regarding the delta variant and waning vaccine induced immunity, disease induced immunity had become superior to that from initial vaccination.

We'll see what the future brings. Nonetheless, side effects from the disease itself are far worse than any vaccine side effects.

 

[Brian Roth]

As I read all this....

"Group A sez get the the vax"

Group B sez "It''a a method to kill the entire population of the world so that Soros and his rich friends take over planet Earth".

omg above my pay grade

Bri

 

[Brian Roth]

As I read all this....

"Group A sez get the the vax"

Group B sez "It''a a method to kill the entire population of the world so that Soros and his rich friends take over planet Earth".

omg above my pay grade

Bri

 

[shabtek]

But can we get a little more scientific approach on here? One where we draw conclusions based on data presented? Instead of the other way around with preconceived notions and conclusions that are immutable? I don't know why both sides have turned this into such a tribal team issue.

this deserves inquiry as much as anything--so humans can grok how their minds' are hijacked.

 

[fallout]

As I read all this....

"Group A sez get the the vax"

Group B sez "It''a a method to kill the entire population of the world so that Soros and his rich friends take over planet Earth".

omg above my pay grade

Bri

You forgot Group C sez "I'll make up my own fucking mind"

 

[fallout]

Nonetheless, side effects from the disease itself are far worse than any vaccine side effects.

Can you cite a study that deals with potential long term side effects?

 

[fallout]

I don't know why both sides have turned this into such a tribal team issue.

When the government is forcing vaccination with questionable effectiveness on people in order to participate in society (see NYC) or to be employed (see the entire USA) you can't see why this has turned tribal?

I care about people getting a Covid shot as much as I care about them getting a flu shot. Enough already.

 

[scott2000]

You forgot Group C sez "I'll make up my own fucking mind"

I used to get frustrated when my Mom would repeat herself or forget things but realized it's part of life's process for some. It's possibly hard to visualize who may be on the other end of our interactions online . Would be kinda weird to see some of these interactions face to face on the streets I'm sure.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

You forgot Group C sez "I'll make up my own fucking mind"

They accuse others of binary thinking and then binarize the world. Ridiculous. I'm firmly in group C after complying for several months with ever more draconian and illogical "orders" that bypassed the legislative channel altogether. I started tracking this crap before it was in the press and kept up with much of it for 18 months.

My BS meter is functioning properly. I'm not a moron (earned bachelors and masters in engineering and spent 30 years working in high tech). My wife is a nurse, so I've also been exposed to what's been going on in that area as well.

As far as I'm concerned, it is over. The response was overtly authoritarian, not based on science or reasoned thought, and as predicted had catastrophic side effects that will linger for decades.

Thomas Sowell sums it up succinctly:

"Freedom ultimately means the right of other people to do things that you do not approve of."

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Extremely unlikely when two people live together and have spent the majority of these last two years in close quarters doing the same activities. The odds are extremely against what you ate suggesting.

Two people who are presumably not close genetic relatives could easily have differing immune responses to the virus. One of you could easily have been exposed and been asymptomatic due to adequate immune response such that the other was not.

I'm not saying it did or did not happen, just pointing out that reality is complex and there are other possible explanations. I've lost track of how many of my extended family have had it. The first were two younger cousins in their 40s in March/April 2020. One was asymptomatic (he was tested because of contact with someone else who got it and had symptoms). The other had flu like symptoms for a couple of weeks. He's married with three kids and lives in the same town with his sister's family and their parents. They had regular contact before he was tested positive, yet no one else got it.

 

[fallout]

I used to get frustrated when my Mom would repeat herself or forget things but realized it's part of life's process for some. It's possibly hard to visualize who may be on the other end of our interactions online . Would be kinda weird to see some of these interactions face to face on the streets I'm sure.

For one.. I can tell you that people are far less condescending in person.