JohnRoberts

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2018, 11:07:52 AM »
Yet another example of media bias, labelling President Trump a (white) nationalist... cute.

 I expect more like this and probably worse trying to sway undecideds in the upcoming election (weeks away).

The late 60's was worse than this with the nation divided over Viet Nam. The decade before the civil war was reportedly much worse, but I didn't live through that, I do remember the 60s (mostly).

I am not good at predicting vote outcomes, and mid term elections are usually low turn-out losers for the party in power, but it looks like we may have record turnout this time judging from early voting results. The shenanigans trying to energize the left's base, appears to be energizing the right also.  There is an old joke that Americans learn geography from wars, it appears the drama surrounding President Trump's administration is teaching civics to the low information voters (while I'm sure that was not his plan or intention).  ::)

The Kavanaugh hearing abuse of process (and identity politics character assassination), and now the caravan of illegal immigrants moving toward our southern border is far from a successful strategy for the left (IMO).  President Trumps poll numbers are actually rising. A recent NBC/WSJ poll report President Trump has a 47% approval rating. President Obama had a 45% approval rating at the same time in his first term. President Obama lost seats in 2010 so this far from a victory signal, but perhaps informative for the sky is falling (democracy in crisis) crowd. The democratic leadership is trying to soften their message (about calling for impeachment et al), but the damage from energizing the right may already be done.

 Sorry I should do better about ignoring this stuff but the amount of money both sides are spending on this mid term are also breaking records (expected to exceed $5B). As a nation we could do far better things with that money.   >:(

The good news this election will be over in a few weeks, the bad news the extraordinary partisan enmity probably won't stop then.

A split legislature is actually a good thing for the small government crowd (me). We could all do with a little less federal government.

JR

PS: Since Oct is almost over I wonder if the SA caravan, or the suspicious mailed packages were the October surprise? Perhaps still more to come, but there definitely seems to be some fuzzy thinking going on this time around. 
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

living sounds

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2018, 12:44:40 PM »
Yet another example of media bias, labelling President Trump a (white) nationalist... cute.

Well... he even labled himself a nationalist a few days ago. Really John, an incredible amount of bias is necessary not to see Trump and much of the GOP for the corrupt, machiavellian, our-ends-justify-all-means kind of people they are / have become.

I don't see any point in adressing the rest of your post filled with motivated reasoning. I don't want to talk about the Trump talking points, things like the totally meaningless so called "Caravan". These are distractions.

There are people in power now who do whatever they can to grab and keep vast shares of riches and resources, because they consider themselves entitled and don't care about the rest. They are going to try again to take away healthcare, medicare (McConnel stupidly admitted it), allow the desctruction of the planet to commence and don't give a damn as long as they are at the top. That's the naked truth and that's what this election is about. Anything else is meaningless.



JohnRoberts

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2018, 01:09:21 PM »
Well... he even labled himself a nationalist a few days ago. Really John, an incredible amount of bias is necessary not to see Trump and much of the GOP for the corrupt, machiavellian, our-ends-justify-all-means kind of people they are / have become.
There is a huge difference between a nationalist and a white nationalist, a pejorative extremist characterization. If you don't see the difference I can't help you.
Quote
I don't see any point in adressing the rest of your post filled with motivated reasoning. I don't want to talk about the Trump talking points, things like the totally meaningless so called "Caravan". These are distractions.
;D good news (I have work to do).
Quote
There are people in power now who do whatever they can to grab and keep vast shares of riches and resources, because they consider themselves entitled and don't care about the rest. They are going to try again to take away healthcare, medicare (McConnel stupidly admitted it), allow the desctruction of the planet to commence and don't give a damn as long as they are at the top. That's the naked truth and that's what this election is about. Anything else is meaningless.
Be sure to vote.... ::)  I am not trying to change anybody's emotional opinion, just trying to keep facts straight.

I am pleased to hear that Angela Merkel has changed her position about opening up Germany to US LNG in response to lobbying from President Trump. This will ultimately reduce your dependence on Russian NG from the pipeline and Putin's influence over EU energy market. This will take years to build a new LNG terminal and get it functional but is a positive long term step IMO (I still question Germany decommissioning nuclear power plants, but they are unpopular since the tsunami in Japan.) 

While of little consequence to mid term voters here it looks like another modest success for President Trump's international policy for those of us paying attention.

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

dmp

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2018, 01:28:50 PM »
To get back on subject, when a politicians attack the ability of citizens to vote for purely partisan reasons, it is a democracy in crisis.
Perhaps the most damning thing about all of this is Trump created a commission to investigate his claims of voter fraud.
The commission was headed by Kris Kobach, the Kansas Sec of State who has been leading the Republican effort to disenfranchise voters.
The commission quietly disbanded after failing to find anything of substance. 
Trump's claims that several million people voted illegally in 2016 turned out to be a lie and the Republican justifications for voter ID, closing polling places, purging voter rolls, creating poll taxes (fees for voter IDs), etc... have all been exposed for just what they are: anti-democratic attempts at obtaining power against the will of the people.
Hopefully people here (or most) can see the truth of all this and what it says about the character of the Republican party.

gyraf

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2018, 01:36:53 PM »
A recent NBC/WSJ poll report President Trump has a 47% approval rating. President Obama had a 45% approval rating at the same time in his first term.

Not quite correct:  https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

..Obama had a 47,9 average approval rating, Trump just about holds it at 39 so far(!) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating

..but it is still sad to watch the splitting from the side line...

Jakob E.
..note to self: don't let Harman run your company..

JohnRoberts

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2018, 03:45:47 PM »
Not quite correct:  https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

..Obama had a 47,9 average approval rating, Trump just about holds it at 39 so far(!) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating

..but it is still sad to watch the splitting from the side line...

Jakob E.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/412445-trumps-approval-rating-jumps-higher-than-obamas-ahead-of-midterms

I don't make this sh__ up, this is not the same article I saw this morning but references the same poll  NBC/WSJ... that indicated President Trump's recently rising popularity  (NBC does not strike me as administration friendly media).

The poll that actually counts is the vote in Nov and President Trump is not technically on that ballot (neither was President Obama in 2010). 
====
Indeed it is sad to see the lack of civility from both political parties.

JR

PS: I found a full term gallup poll showing President Obama's popularity between 40% and 50% in 2010...   https://qz.com/889644/obamas-approval-rating-from-his-first-day-to-his-last-in-charts/  But we know what they say about statistics... "lies, damn lies, and statistics."
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

living sounds

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2018, 09:15:20 PM »
Indeed it is sad to see the lack of civility from both political parties.

Please don't do that. You didn't decry civility when Obama (the poster child for civility, decency and integrity) was president and an agry tea party mob was spewing hate in the streets and the "freedom caucus" people misbehaved in parliament.

You  have a choice: You either own the uglyness that orginates overwhelmingly from the extremist right (currently running the governement now) or you can disavow it.

But don't try to muddy the waters like that, it's not a level we shouldn't sink to here.

boji

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2018, 10:38:44 PM »
Quote
The Kavanaugh hearing abuse of process (and identity politics character assassination)

Kavanaugh equally deployed his identity politic while defending his position so, I'm not sure it's relevant to describing what amounted to a failed 'assassination'. 

As for the voting booth shell game, this is an ancient tactic.
If you can order a firearm or pay for an abortion with your iPhone, you should be able to use an encrypted voting app in front of a notary witness. But I can understand why a political minority would want to frustrate any tool or procedure that might reduce their leverage.

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2018, 08:20:43 AM »
The Kavanaugh hearing abuse of process (and identity politics character assassination), and now the caravan of illegal immigrants moving toward our southern border is far from a successful strategy for the left (IMO).

Can you please clarify why you call these people illegal immigrants?

They have entered every country in broad daylight, out in the open.
Every country has let them in.


sodderboy

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2018, 10:21:42 AM »
Really John, an incredible amount of bias is necessary not to see Trump and much of the GOP for the corrupt, machiavellian, our-ends-justify-all-means kind of people they are / have become.  The screeching mobs on the other side have thrown-in to a ends justifies the means strategy.

They are going to try again to take away healthcare, medicare (McConnel stupidly admitted it), allow the destruction of the planet to commence and don't give a damn as long as they are at the top. That's the naked truth and that's what this election is about. Anything else is meaningless.

Really, the shoe is on the other foot.  Besides the fact that the "GOP" has been against Trump's major agenda items since they recovered from his election, they have not been "taking power" but have been elected in increasing numbers over their democrat challengers on all levels of government since 2010.  The screaming mobs on the other side are more of a ends justifies the means strategy.  They think if the media covers the screaming enough it will sway a crowd psychology reaction.  They are all going down with that strategy.   

And "take away healthcare"?  I have been paying double for 8 years and it is time to stop.  PPCACA was written by the insurance companies and every selling point was a lie.  My tab for "healthcare" over the next year is $22K, $1,850 monthly not including deductables and "out-of-pocket".  I am paying thousands for something I do not use.  Plus, I'm funding cadallac plans for government people on all levels.  The federal and state shackles need to be loosened and let a less encumbered market for a product naturally evolve, reduce prices, and create "market changers" like Uber.  A simple catastrophic plan for me should be more like $2,000 per year, but simple products like this have been legislated away over the decades on all levels of guv.  A multitiered system of coverage with cross-state competition will lower all medical/medical coverage costs and make it more affordable to give for "free" to an ever increasing number of citizens.  That is NOT "taking away healthcare".  All that said, the GOP does not have the fortitude to change PPCACA because they are bought and paid for just like the Dems.  Trump is going to have to drag them there.

Destruction of the planet?  Ganz Kvatch! (What total rubbish!)  No "scientific reports" links please.
Mike
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 10:27:29 AM by sodderboy »

JohnRoberts

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2018, 11:12:11 AM »
Can you please clarify why you call these people illegal immigrants?

They have entered every country in broad daylight, out in the open.
Every country has let them in.
That does not make it legal. They broke through a Guatemalan border fence ignoring Mexican authorities request for an orderly entrance, so likely broke Mexican law at that point. 

I don't like pretending to know what they think, but after they are coached by legal supporters as they get closer to the US border many will likely present themselves to be arrested by US border agents as illegal entrants, only to be re-released into the US.

If they think they can pull a Guatemala-like rush at the US border they will likely see a different outcome. Hopefully the media will stop egging them on with expectations of a happy ending.

While our immigration laws are in desperate need of update, our border is not a free for all. All sovereign nations require secure borders, and an orderly, sensible immigration process. This is an insult to the millions coming in legally, who built this country, and will help us grow in the future.

JR

PS: Don't get hung up on words... if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it may be a duck.  8)
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

JohnRoberts

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2018, 11:47:19 AM »
Kavanaugh equally deployed his identity politic while defending his position so, I'm not sure it's relevant to describing what amounted to a failed 'assassination'. 
He lost his temper one time, and said what many people were thinking. In hindsight his response was not temperate or thoughtful. His angry emotional response was different compared to the hours of cold deliberate character attacks mounted by the democratic members of the committee. For them it was just another day in the resistance, but for Kavanaugh and his family it created emotional scars they will carry for the rest of their lives.  As an experienced judge it was probably an extra shock to be treated so disrespectfully so publically.

I openly hoped for some investigation into the multiple shenanigans pulled by the resistance associated with this hearing. The first shoe to drop is Sen Grassley (head of the Senate Judiciary Committee) referred Avenatti to the Justice department for a criminal investigation (submitted fraudulent sworn statement to committee). Separately he also submitted Aventti and his client Julie Swetnik for conspiracy, providing false statements, and obstructing a senate investigation. (so more than one shoe)  There are more snakes in that wood pile, but this is a start.

I am not aware of many such prosecutions resulting in jail time, but this was probably the ugliest baseless accusation made against Kavanaugh (gang rape). They need to realize that they broke laws (lying to congressional investigators) and there are consequences. Martha Stewart and others have felt the teeth of this law.

This is an old rant of mine, but I think our elected representatives need to be held to a similar higher standard of truth telling in public statements. The poster boy was Harry Reid claiming that Romney didn't pay taxes. After the election when he was questioned about his lie, he said "well it worked"... (drain the swamp).

{ here is where you guys rant about President Trump "lying"....  :o }
Quote
As for the voting booth shell game, this is an ancient tactic.
If you can order a firearm or pay for an abortion with your iPhone, you should be able to use an encrypted voting app in front of a notary witness. But I can understand why a political minority would want to frustrate any tool or procedure that might reduce their leverage.
Vote integrity is important... I am repeating myself (again). Let everybody vote who wants to, but take a photo and thumb print. If the election is close those votes can be vetted. If not close, discard the biometric data.

This too is old school team politics. One side rants about vote fraud, while the other rants about denied rights. This gets investigated every election and insignificant numbers (in the context of a couple hundred million) get caught.

Hopefully this will stir up more people to actually participate (looks like a record turn out expected this time).

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2018, 12:10:06 PM »
PS: Don't get hung up on words... if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it may be a duck.  8)

Right. To quote yourself:

There is a huge difference between a nationalist and a white nationalist, a pejorative extremist characterization. If you don't see the difference I can't help you.

There is a huge difference between an immigrant and an illegal immigrant, a pejorative extremist characterization. Or, it's pretty easy to argue Trump 'walks' and talks like a white nationalist, so he probably is.

Best if you don't like pejorative labels applied to you and ours, to not apply them to others.

JohnRoberts

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2018, 12:38:56 PM »
Right. To quote yourself:

There is a huge difference between an immigrant and an illegal immigrant, a pejorative extremist characterization.
An "illegal" immigrant is an immigrant who entered the country "illegally" breaking our laws. It might be considered premature to call the caravan members illegal while it appears they did break Mexican law by forcing their way through the Guatemalan border fence.

If they were expected "legal" migrants, following established US immigration law they wouldn't be getting 24x7 news coverage (everybody loves a parade.)
Quote


Or, it's pretty easy to argue Trump 'walks' and talks like a white nationalist, so he probably is.
Perhaps easy to argue in one side's biased echo chamber, but not supported by fact. 
Quote
Best if you don't like pejorative labels applied to you and ours, to not apply them to others.
The art of political suasion is "painting with words", this is constantly being used by spinners from both sides. I was attempting to be precise (accurate), while I appreciate that words have impact. I was recognizing their legal status, not attempting to paint a false impression about same.

I try not to delve in political persuasion (spin), I am however a student of government and often feel compelled to explain how things work (not unlike explaining electronic circuits). I appreciate that it is difficult to separate politics from governance, especially since so many spend most of their time in office trying to stay in office (another argument for term limits).

I apologize to all I am apparently offending by right-splaining current events but I am mainly responding to other comments.  ::) I have better things to do with my time (like build drum tuners to fill my back order)

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

boji

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2018, 03:43:41 PM »
The old one-liner: How do you know a politician is lying? Their lips are moving.

Quote
I am not aware of many such prosecutions resulting in jail time, but this was probably the ugliest baseless accusation made against Kavanaugh (gang rape).
I am a firm believer our core instincts don't change much over time.  We may learn things and get wise, but who we were in high school will predict our general temperament. This is to say even if Kav's youth was just a hard drinking, consensual, hedonistic carnival, there are those who know early on to avoid such behavior and those who say 'fuk it' and sneak under the tent.

Quote
emotional scars they will carry for the rest of their lives.
If we're to believe in the witness testimony (what was permitted through), there's enough scarring to go around.
 But I think Kav was a willing victim too, as he was heavily coached to 'disrobe' emotionally.  This means he chose to help the GOP by getting his career to peak over holding to the principals of the position he was vying for.  If he had an ounce of belief in the pseudo-divine status his position is supposed to represent, he would have bowed-out way before the witness roster was called.

Quote
If the election is close those votes can be vetted. If not close, discard the biometric data.
+1
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 04:30:08 PM by boji »

living sounds

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2018, 07:50:01 PM »
And "take away healthcare"?  I have been paying double for 8 years and it is time to stop.  PPCACA was written by the insurance companies and every selling point was a lie.  My tab for "healthcare" over the next year is $22K, $1,850 monthly not including deductables and "out-of-pocket".  I am paying thousands for something I do not use.  Plus, I'm funding cadallac plans for government people on all levels.  The federal and state shackles need to be loosened and let a less encumbered market for a product naturally evolve, reduce prices, and create "market changers" like Uber.  A simple catastrophic plan for me should be more like $2,000 per year, but simple products like this have been legislated away over the decades on all levels of guv.  A multitiered system of coverage with cross-state competition will lower all medical/medical coverage costs and make it more affordable to give for "free" to an ever increasing number of citizens.  That is NOT "taking away healthcare".  All that said, the GOP does not have the fortitude to change PPCACA because they are bought and paid for just like the Dems.  Trump is going to have to drag them there.



I totally understand you anger with the current system. With a normal (non rich-guy) income you obviously shouldn't pay that much, and in a progressive system wouldn't pay that much. Bernie Sanders, Michael Moore or Ralph Nader wouldn't want you to pay that much.

But if you think McConnel, Trump and the rest of the GOP will make this better you hope for something very unlikely. Look at their track record! In the last 40 years under GOP rule tax cuts for the wealthy, corporate welfare, wasteful military spending and deregulation with catastrophic economic consequenes have increased the deficit and transfered money from the bottom and middle to the top. McConnel even said he wants to eliminate the entitlement programs.

We probably agree over many issues relating to inefficiencies in the system and corporate welfare in the healthcare and other sectors. Personally, I think taxing sugar and junk food the same as other toxic consumer produces like alcohol and cigarettes would be a good start.

As for a market-based-solution... Well, the health care "market" is not like other markets. It is an insurance, and the most important one of them. You may need it, you may not need it. You pay for other people most of the time, as is the case with any insurance. But you have it if and when you need it. So naturally we pay for something we hopefully don't need. I know I do and hope to do so in the future.

L´Andratté

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2018, 07:33:28 AM »
Wow, Pittsburgh, things are speeding up fast...
"Why not get an assistant to work the faders? Real vintage! And maybe cheaper... ;)"

L´Andratté

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2018, 07:38:25 AM »
Destruction of the planet?  Ganz Kvatch! (What total rubbish!)  No "scientific reports" links please.
How do you mean that? Do you think scientific reports invalid as a whole?

Your monthly medical costs are ridiculous and as you said likely a result of successful lobbying*.
In Germany the highest I had to pay was ca. 600EU when I had a royal income (yet still "normal"), when I haid very low income it was about 200EU. With that everything essential is covered (even like 1,5 years of pay of 60% of former income when unable to work because of health issues) It is for me a cornerstone of civilization.

*which is the undisclosed end all that voting and political talking business of all parties is a means to. Imho.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 07:46:40 AM by L´Andratté »
"Why not get an assistant to work the faders? Real vintage! And maybe cheaper... ;)"

Re: A democracy in crisis
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2018, 07:57:36 AM »
An "illegal" immigrant is an immigrant who entered the country "illegally" breaking our laws. It might be considered premature to call the caravan members illegal while it appears they did break Mexican law by forcing their way through the Guatemalan border fence.

If they were expected "legal" migrants, following established US immigration law they wouldn't be getting 24x7 news coverage (everybody loves a parade.)Perhaps easy to argue in one side's biased echo chamber, but not supported by fact.  The art of political suasion is "painting with words", this is constantly being used by spinners from both sides. I was attempting to be precise (accurate), while I appreciate that words have impact. I was recognizing their legal status, not attempting to paint a false impression about same.

I try not to delve in political persuasion (spin), I am however a student of government and often feel compelled to explain how things work (not unlike explaining electronic circuits). I appreciate that it is difficult to separate politics from governance, especially since so many spend most of their time in office trying to stay in office (another argument for term limits).

I apologize to all I am apparently offending by right-splaining current events but I am mainly responding to other comments.  ::) I have better things to do with my time (like build drum tuners to fill my back order)

JR

Labelling them as criminals, using a pejorative description, is textbook political spin: you're projecting a belief system where all poor non-white immigrants travelling to the US are "illegals".

How plausible does this sound:
A "white" nationalist is a nationalist who is "white". Nothing political is inferred by "white", it's just an accurate description of their skin colour.

Apparently the "white" nationalist "terrorist" in Pittsburgh, was fed up with all the "illegals" the "jews" were bringing in to "invade" his country.

No sh*t words have impact.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 08:56:51 AM by Banzai »


 

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