A Democracy too far?

[DaveP]

I guess there must be some incredible democratic principle to be upheld at all costs, that makes you guys put up with a fiasco like this every now and then.  Too bad its the same set of workers who get to pick up the tab every time. :-[

Maybe if Congressmen lost their salaries for the same amount of time, they would be more likely to find a compromise, capitalism and market forces in action in the Capital ;D

I thought the UK parliament was past it's sell by date, but your system needs some reform too, by the look of it.

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

I guess there must be some incredible democratic principle to be upheld at all costs, that makes you guys put up with a fiasco like this every now and then.  Too bad its the same set of workers who get to pick up the tab every time. :-[

Maybe if Congressmen lost their salaries for the same amount of time, they would be more likely to find a compromise, capitalism and market forces in action in the Capital ;D

I thought the UK parliament was past it's sell by date, but your system needs some reform too, by the look of it.

DaveP

To adress the "principles" involved we are not a simple democracy, our form of government is biased to protect individual rights and freedoms, to protect us from the tyranny of the majority. O'care was Rhamed through with no significant participation from the republican minority (at the time).

I do not agree with this political strategy that only a subset of the republican party is forcing. O'care is an entitlement that has already been blessed by the supreme court (incorrectly BTW. They mis-characterized it as a tax.). You can not defund an entitlement with the continuing resolution process, or the debt celling limit coming around again in a couple weeks. So all this drama is mostly for show to benefit a few congressmen living in conservative districts. The class of 2010 who took over the house was elected by a pissed off electorate and these guys need to do something along these lines to keep their jobs, however ineffective and counter productive for the long term.

Obama is inviting the shutdown and laughing all the way to the 2014 mid-term elections since the news media will spin the democratic party line that this is completely due to republican intransigence. The public who do not pay attention to the ebb and flow of how the government operates tends to believe the characterizations from the news media. 

I am very much opposed to O'care, but IMO it will collapse under it's own weight since they never properly funded it, instead relying on budgetary tricks to get it's cost scored by the congressional budget office and passed. Just stand back and watch what happens, so many of the promises made have already evaporated and this is just day one for it.

This government shutdown is not the way to fix it, and another small ball political strategy victory for democratic party.  :-(

We need to throw more of the bums out and not shoot ourselves in both feet in the process.

Patience...

JR

PS: I don't mind paying the congress for their faint effort, but one of the recent proposals from the House that was summarily dismissed by the senate was forcing the legislature and their staff to all participate in Obamacare, just like they are forcing us to. I don't trust any cooks who don't eat their own cooking. 

PPS: Don't cry for the poor government workers, historically they get paid retroactively, so these shut downs are even more wasteful.

PPPS: The market is up and gold is going down so this is far from economic disaster... political malpractice perhaps.   

 

[DaveP]

Thanks for the back-story JR.

I never realised how much this British Tyranny issue had affected your system of government until we aired all these issues in the Brewery.  Its been 237 years now, give us a break

DaveP

 

[dmp]

I think it is unfortunate - it looks just like spoiled children in the house throwing a tantrum. But this is the democratic process at work. And it is bringing some much needed attention to some extremists in the House (IMO). I think what we are seeing is the tea party republicans (& wealthy big business barons) desperate, but unable to stop the law.

I think the lengths some are going to try to stop it shows how terrified they are that it is going to work and people are going to love the changes.

This reform will effectively allow people to move from job to job without their health insurance being dependent on their employment. It will take away some of the power big business has over workers, and help works push back against the driving down of wages big business has been successful at for the past decade. Reasons: reform on pre-existing conditions, etc...

And allow people to come into the health insurance system and come out of the emergency room / margins.

The amount of disinformation about the ACA is really stunning. A poll I saw today showed that 40% of people thought it would have death panels and x% believed it would force out private insurance with a government plan. The well-funded process of slandering it by wealthy special interest groups has been very successful, unfortunately.

People who have health insurance through their jobs aren't being forced onto the exchanges. Including the President and Congress. Maybe some believe they should have their health benefit taken away so they would buy insurance on the exchange, but the misstatements about this situation itself are pretty egregious.

I wish the USA had a credible conservative party that was interested in weighing in, and helping making this health reform better. But the minority party is just passing desperate bills to overturn the whole thing 40+ times.

Clearly the status quo is working for the very wealthy and they are very upset they can't bully the whole country.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Thanks for the back-story JR.

I never realised how much this British Tyranny issue had affected your system of government until we aired all these issues in the Brewery.  Its been 237 years now, give us a break

DaveP

British? Our founders studied pretty much all systems of governance that preceded ours. I suspect we borrowed a bunch from you guys. I wish be borrowed your legal system rule where people who file nuisance lawsuits have to pay legal defense costs when they lose.

Tyranny of the majority or masses is from Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America", and a weak criticism of his about the US system. de Tocqueville also famously predicted that once the US legislators figure out they can bribe voters with their own tax dollars the US system will fail... He was a smart dude for a Frenchman.  ;D

BTW I forgot to mention that this back story is from my personal perspective, I suspect many people see it differently.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

I think it is unfortunate - it looks just like spoiled children in the house throwing a tantrum. But this is the democratic process at work. And it is bringing some much needed attention to some extremists in the House (IMO). I think what we are seeing is the tea party republicans (& wealthy big business barons) desperate, but unable to stop the law.

I think the lengths some are going to try to stop it shows how terrified they are that it is going to work and people are going to love the changes.

This reform will effectively allow people to move from job to job without their health insurance being dependent on their employment. It will take away some of the power big business has over workers, and help works push back against the driving down of wages big business has been successful at for the past decade. Reasons: reform on pre-existing conditions, etc...

And allow people to come into the health insurance system and come out of the emergency room / margins.

The amount of disinformation about the ACA is really stunning. A poll I saw today showed that 40% of people thought it would have death panels and x% believed it would force out private insurance with a government plan. The well-funded process of slandering it by wealthy special interest groups has been very successful, unfortunately.

People who have health insurance through their jobs aren't being forced onto the exchanges. Including the President and Congress. Maybe some believe they should have their health benefit taken away so they would buy insurance on the exchange, but the misstatements about this situation itself are pretty egregious.

I wish the USA had a credible conservative party that was interested in weighing in, and helping making this health reform better. But the minority party is just passing desperate bills to overturn the whole thing 40+ times.

Clearly the status quo is working for the very wealthy and they are very upset they can't bully the whole country.

Like I said opinions vary... I will not re litigate O'care point by point yet again.

Lets just wait and see how wonderful this really is, as if we have a alternative choice? 

I am sure there will be more serious revisits of multiple aspects of this legislation in congress by both parties, to address fundamental flaws, not just the Quixotic arm wavers tilting at windmills, but not this session.

For one we don't need selective enforcement by the executive, but that goes for all the laws, not just this one.

JR  (wealthy bully)  8)

 

[pucho812]

I think it is unfortunate - it looks just like spoiled children in the house throwing a tantrum. But this is the democratic process at work. And it is bringing some much needed attention to some extremists in the House (IMO). I think what we are seeing is the tea party republicans (& wealthy big business barons) desperate, but unable to stop the law.

I think the lengths some are going to try to stop it shows how terrified they are that it is going to work and people are going to love the changes.

This reform will effectively allow people to move from job to job without their health insurance being dependent on their employment. It will take away some of the power big business has over workers, and help works push back against the driving down of wages big business has been successful at for the past decade. Reasons: reform on pre-existing conditions, etc...

And allow people to come into the health insurance system and come out of the emergency room / margins.

The amount of disinformation about the ACA is really stunning. A poll I saw today showed that 40% of people thought it would have death panels and x% believed it would force out private insurance with a government plan. The well-funded process of slandering it by wealthy special interest groups has been very successful, unfortunately.

People who have health insurance through their jobs aren't being forced onto the exchanges. Including the President and Congress. Maybe some believe they should have their health benefit taken away so they would buy insurance on the exchange, but the misstatements about this situation itself are pretty egregious.

I wish the USA had a credible conservative party that was interested in weighing in, and helping making this health reform better. But the minority party is just passing desperate bills to overturn the whole thing 40+ times.

Clearly the status quo is working for the very wealthy and they are very upset they can't bully the whole country.

I disagree and so do others.  According to the polls it's 51% who think the shut down in the fault of the dems.  But lets look at this a whole, it has turned into what I  compare as gang turf war. Each side does not want to give up any turf and have reached a point where if either side backs down they loose respect.  It's all about getting respect. The sad part is both sides are playing with our futures. I agree that something needs to be done to the ever rising cost of healthcare in this country but I don't think Obamacare is it, not by a long shot.

 

[DaveP]

I don't think that Obama Care is the issue here, what is puzzling the rest of the world is how you managed to set up a system that can shut down a government.  If a hacker or the Chinese had done it, you'd all be screaming blue murder, its the fact that the most powerful country in the world has done it to itself that is so random to the rest of us.

DaveP

 

[hodad]

In this particular case, it's the right wing of the party on the right that's practicing the insanity, but they learned their tactics from the W. Bush administration, which in practice (though not necessarily in word, because they were a rather disingenuous lot) abandoned anything that remotely resembled compromise.  The "party discipline" of the House GOP goes back even further, to Newt Gingrich's run as Speaker of the House.  He made it so that party loyalty was the key to advancement/clout in the House.  Tom "the Hammer" DeLay continued where Gingrich left off. 

Right now the House GOP is being ruled by lunatics.  If you want crazy, check out Georgia's Paul Broun.  Whenever he's quoted, I think they should preface his name with "batsh!t crazy,"--he really is astonishing.  These folks, who fancy themselves the heirs to the founding fathers, are closer to being the heirs of Nero. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

I don't think that Obama Care is the issue here, what is puzzling the rest of the world is how you managed to set up a system that can shut down a government.  If a hacker or the Chinese had done it, you'd all be screaming blue murder, its the fact that the most powerful country in the world has done it to itself that is so random to the rest of us.

DaveP

If the government was really shut down we wouldn't see them all whining on TV... I think the founders would approve of sending them all home for a year. Unfortunately they'd still manage to spend too much of our money.

This is how a branch of government who's primary function is to control the purse strings wields those purse strings to influence the other branches. 

It's just biddness in DC...

JR

 

[pucho812]

I don't think that Obama Care is the issue here, what is puzzling the rest of the world is how you managed to set up a system that can shut down a government.  If a hacker or the Chinese had done it, you'd all be screaming blue murder, its the fact that the most powerful country in the world has done it to itself that is so random to the rest of us.

DaveP

what puzzles me is how congress can still draw a paycheck even though it's closed. What also puzzles me is how some employees are sent home while others are deemed essential and have to work but will not be paid until things resolve.

In this particular case, it's the right wing of the party on the right that's practicing the insanity, but they learned their tactics from the W. Bush administration, which in practice (though not necessarily in word, because they were a rather disingenuous lot) abandoned anything that remotely resembled compromise.  The "party discipline" of the House GOP goes back even further, to Newt Gingrich's run as Speaker of the House.  He made it so that party loyalty was the key to advancement/clout in the House.  Tom "the Hammer" DeLay continued where Gingrich left off. 

Right now the House GOP is being ruled by lunatics.  If you want crazy, check out Georgia's Paul Broun.  Whenever he's quoted, I think they should preface his name with "batsh!t crazy,"--he really is astonishing.  These folks, who fancy themselves the heirs to the founding fathers, are closer to being the heirs of Nero.

I think you will find just as equal blame with the senate who has turned down every offer the house has made and even turned down a budget from the White house itself.  You would think they would have at least looked at the budget from the white house before saying no. The senate is just at fault as  is the house.

 

[Spiritworks]

John Roberts is spot on with his posts in this thread.

 

[keefaz]

They even closed the Normandy American cemetery  ???
Sad for people who went here to celebrate their beloved ancestor's memory

http://www.kentucky.com/2013/10/02/2855183/d-day-cemetery-among-the-victims.html

 

[hodad]

I think you will find just as equal blame with the senate who has turned down every offer the house has made and even turned down a budget from the White house itself.  You would think they would have at least looked at the budget from the white house before saying no. The senate is just at fault as  is the house.

No, you won't find equal blame.  House GOP wants to use the CR to delay the ACA.  The ACA was passed after over a year of debate, with lots of compromise.  It was approved by the Supreme Court.  The House GOP, which has managed to do almost nothing in the way of actual governance, has voted about 40 times (no lie) to repeal the ACA.  The ACA has nothing to do with the CR, and yet that's what they've made it all about--"Do what we say or we shoot the puppy!"  The problem is they don't stop when you do what they ask.  There will always be more demands, and more threats. 

They are insane.  And I mean that.  They are so wrapped up in their own propaganda, lies, and lust for power that their brains have ceased to function properly.  And some of them were pretty crazy from the git-go, so taking the insanity a step further is pretty dang ugly. 

 

[dmp]

Is this the first time that the Budget has forced a government shutdown to kill a particular piece of legislation? Is that considered a method of protecting minority rights under the Constitution? There has been plenty of legislation "Rhamed through with no significant participation" from the minority party before. 

I saw an interesting reference to the Federalist Papers.
Federalist No 10, by James Madison (from wikipedia)  ...continues the discussion of the question broached in Hamilton's Federalist No. 9. Hamilton there addressed the destructive role of a faction in breaking apart the republic.
"a number of citizens, whether amounting to a minority or majority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adverse to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community"
However, he thinks that "the most common and durable source of factions has been the various and unequal distribution of property. Those who hold and those who are without property have ever formed distinct interests in society".

what puzzles me is how congress can still draw a paycheck even though it's closed.

I recall that there is something in the constitution saying pay cannot be changed during tenure. Makes sense if you think about it.

Also, the budget must come from the House, according to the Constitution. The Executive can propose a budget, but the Senate can't take up something that didn't originate in the House.

 

[JohnRoberts]

what puzzles me is how congress can still draw a paycheck even though it's closed. What also puzzles me is how some employees are sent home while others are deemed essential and have to work but will not be paid until things resolve.

It is only the government worker bees who are temporarily without paychecks.

It is congresses specific job task to manage all spending so if they were not on the job how could they approve the CR and move on. Their actual pay seems a pittance in the context of the amount of money they spend and influence they wield due to that big dollar spending. Their personal office budgets run into the million dollar range, and they spent billions and trillions collectively. 

It takes two to tango so both sides are obviously complicit. While I dislike speculating about motives (how can we really know?). Name calling and pejorative characterizations do not promote thoughtful exchange of ideas.

JR

@Hodad I was paying attention when that legislation was passed and it was NOT a collaboration with republicans who had a completely different list of ways to improve healthcare. It wasn't even a collaboration with most democrats, as Pelosi famously quipped, "we need to pass it before we can read it."  I do not think either side is insane, but I believe one side is incorrect. I can wait for this to play out (don't have much choice)... while being proved correct after the fact is not as satisfying as doing it right the first time.  While this may be day 2 of official obamacare, the private economy has been shifting in response for the last couple years. It will take decades to get this on a good (free market) track. This is me being optimistic.  :'(

@DMP I don't think anybody believes they can unilaterally "kill" legislation. Starving unfavorable programs by defunding is not novel, but not effective in this case due to the scope and entitlement nature of this legislation. I suspect both sides are painted into different corners by their respective bases.

If this drags on at all it will blend with the debt celling increase that is about two weeks off. I would not be surprised if they were already working on a grand deal to resolve all three points of disagreement.  While I am not smart enough to predict, what when and how. This sausage making is too ugly to watch very closely. 

 

[dmp]

I am glad this is happening with the budget and not the debt ceiling.
Am I the only one that thinks the debt ceiling should not be debated?
The Constitution says: "the validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law ... shall not be questioned"

 

[riggler]

A lot of people see all the posturing / debating / arguing / sneaky tactics as negatives. But in the end, our system was designed to have so many checks and balances in place that no one party, person, or motivational force can make abrupt change. Even though these things my seem childish, extreme, or even dangerous, I think it's important to remember that these things are a form of a safety net from allowing some faction to gain to much control of the government.

That works both ways, at least it's supposed to. I think when the dems and repubs start agreeing on lots of things is when we really have to worry...

 

[mulletchuck]

I thought this was a pretty good synopsis and discusses stuff no one here has brought up yet. 

http://www.vice.com/read/the-us-government-shut-down-because-everything-is-stupid

also:
http://www.vice.com/read/here-are-all-the-laws-passed-by-the-worst-congress-of-all-time

And finally, here's somethin' about the imbalance of power among the state representation: http://www.vice.com/read/forget-gun-control-lets-ban-the-senate

 

[JohnRoberts]

I am glad this is happening with the budget and not the debt ceiling.
Am I the only one that thinks the debt ceiling should not be debated?
The Constitution says: "the validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law ... shall not be questioned"

Agreed,, but this is the nature of political debate.

I would prefer an amendment that limits borrowing to a ratio of GDP, and this ultimately must be reflecting in managing spending. Historically the US has borrowed massively during times of war, and this generally turned out well for us, and could have been prohibited by a too restrictive constitutional limit.

Markets generally limit sovereign borrowing by raising interest rates so high they are unattractive.  We have seen this play out in Southern Europe recently. The US is in a privileged position as the world's reserve currency, so we could borrow far more, but doing the math for how much we already owe per citizen, is enough to discourage me.

US sovereign debt is over $40k per person, more than $100k per household, and increasing every year as we continue to run deficits. Note: This is like  looking at mortgage debt and ignoring the value of the house, as we have national assets too, so spending on infrastructure has persistent asset value. OTOH entitlement spending and wealth transfers are sunk costs with no future asset value. 

At the end of the day we need to hope that our politicians will be the adults in the room, but they rarely act that way when all the cameras are trained on them. I can not recall hearing so much nasty sniping at the highest levels.

But this too will pass.  it's just their version of bidness...

JR

@riggler... +1 absolutely..  If we look back at how O'care was passed they had already lost the super majority in the senate so had to use a gimmick to amend the original legislation, claiming they were making a budgetary adjustment rather than amending the legislation which would have required another full vote. They cleverly finessed the system to pass that legislation. (some less gracious than I might call it by other names than finesse).