Audinate / Dante network protocol DIY opportunity: interesting?

[erikb1971]

Hi all

(I have send this message a week ago as a pm to some members, but no reaction, that is why Iam posting this as a topic, just to be sure we are not missing on something intereseting)

A week ago:

The thing is, I just had a call from Kieran Walsh from Audinate. ( http://www.audinate.com/index.php ). I had posted a request for a product development kit for the Dante protocol yesterday. He gave me a call today because he kind of had the idea that I was just a enthusiast instead of a professional company. I explained to him the prodigy diy group and that we would probably be very interested in building our own break out box for in - out audio to our computer by using the Dante protocol. Being an ex musician he was pretty sympathetic to this idea and understood that we would not be able to pay thousands of euro's for a kit to build some non commercial stuff. He proposed to set up a call with him and some guy from their European distributor to try to work something out that would be beneficial for both Audinate and the diy community.

Anyway, there I was, me and my Big Mouth, still trying to understand the difference between a passive and an active summing box (example to show my (lack of) understanding of diy electronics). I think that if there is the slightest chance that this would mean we could use the dante protocol for diy projects, we should not have it F*cked up by my poor knowledge. I would like to ask you what would be the way to go from here? Do you ave any idea if this would be an interesting opportunity? And if so, do you know of anyone who would be capable and willing to do the talking in the (conference?) call?

Iam awaiting reactions, would like to get back to Kieran before the 20th of March.

Thank in advance

Erik

 

[grantlack]

i had done something similar, but with their support department- mainly as a fact finding mission.  the immediate escalation to NDA's, price point discovery, etc. spooked me off the trail a bit.  i think it was assumed that i had commercial goals in mind.  i'm certainly in no position to handle anything like a conference call, but i'd probably be of some use once goals were established and we knew what we were getting into.

 

[BR]

Hi Erik,

Me and another member here at the forum are already working on this exact product.  The other member is almost done with all the pcb design and we are already in talks with the folks at Audinate.
You are welcome to try it yourself, or find someone else to join you in the process.  But just wanted to let you know that we are well on the way with a product that is almost identical to what you describe above. 
I'm actually not sure if there will be any issues, since I already have a Non-disclosure agreement with Audinate that describes this product.

I guess it is a free market, so nothing can stop two people from developing the same product.  best of luck.

take care
Gil

 

[erikb1971]

Hi Gill!

Way to go, congratulations with your progress, kick some Focusrite ass! ;-)
I was no way planning to make a commercial product, so if that is what you are after, no worries, Iam not. And if you are, Iam sure there will be a nice discount for forum members or even a even bigger discounted diy version ;-)
If you are going (just like I planned) to go for just the diy version for the forum, then there is no reason at all for me to continue, why do it myself if I can just order the PCB and the BOM from you guys.
So, what are you planning on, a commercial product or a non commercial just for the forum development?

Kind regards!

Erik

 

[tv]

OT: every summing box is "active" in its nature - it needs a makeup gain amp eventually.

There is a difference between "active" summing (virtual-ground summing) and "passive" (voltage) summing.

If you google it, there are articles explaining both.

 

[grantlack]

gil-
i'm also curious as to your approach/intent/etc.  not sure how much you're willing or able to discuss, which is understood, but i'd love to be made as aware as possible.

more detailed points of curiosity:
interfacing method (pci-e?)
channel count/frequency/bit depth, etc.
target market (diy-able/commercial/both?)
easy to combine w/ the rkn80 boards via i2s?
price point?

any info would be appreciated, but by no means expected.  business is business!

 

[BR]

Hi Erik
We are working on a commercial unit at the moment, but we are discussing a DIY version.  It wouldn't be that hard.

Grant:
Unit will be modular with total of 24 or 32 channels.
Interface will be via Dante Virtual Sound Card.  No cards necessary.
Target price will be $2000 fully loaded.

Unfortunately I can't give too much more til a finalize a few things.  I do have to clarify that the other member here at the forum is doing all of the design.  I just came up with the product idea and I'm also interfacing with Audinate for the design.  He is welcome to chime in here if he desires.  I'd like to give him the credit for this.  It is only fair.

 

[erikb1971]

I've spoken to "the other member" involved here and I have notified Kieran today that I will not continue my efforts on this, it seems to be in very capable hands already.

 

[tmuikku]

Hi Gil & all!

Any progress on this? Another new thread about DIY AD/ DA interfaces popped up and suddenly remembered somebody was planning on Dante implementation

 

[tmuikku]

Bump. I just got another dante newsletter which says dante is now the thing in av industry.

 

[topcat]

Any one interested in Ravenna...as an alternative to Dante? (Dante was buried in Ravenna in the year 1321) ALC NetworX was founded in October 2007 and is based in Munich, Germany. The company has been established as a competence center with its own R&D department.

Mission
It is envisioned to develop and establish a network-based solution for distributing real-time audio signals for the Professional Audio / Broadcast market. It is intended to purely use IP-based protocols (e.g. RTP, UDP, TCP, IP etc.) to its most feasible extent. We believe that such a solution will be the basis for future systems since it will increase scalability and flexibility and reduce costs during planning, installation and operation. However, the solution must clearly meet the high standards of the Professional Audio / Broadcast community in terms of quality, reliability and availability.

Perspectives
As RAVENNA is now being introduced to the public, ALC NetworX, together with its current and prospective partners, is refining and enhancing the underlying technology. Although product implementations of RAVENNA will be executed by individual partner companies, ALC NetworX will continue to keep the lead role with respect to technology definition. Implementation guidelines ensuring interoperability between devices of different manufacturers will be jointly worked out and published. ALC NetworX will also continue to aid specific product implementations by providing reference designs and offering individual development support to partner companies.

Contact Information:
ALC NetworX GmbH
Am Loferfeld 58
81249 Munich
GERMANY
fon:      +49 (89) 44236777-0
fax:        +49 (89) 44236777-1
email:    info(at)alcnetworx.de
url:        www.alcnetworx.de

cheers

TC

 

[Balijon]

Any one interested in Ravenna...

Yes!
I have been following Ravenna for some time and regard it as the most promising development to using standard networking.
I see it as the potential candidate to replace MADI (which is still the current standard in broadcast and professional recording)
Main reason for this is that it is an open standard not blocked by patents and licences.

Both LAWO and Merging (the Horus) have showed innovative products based on Ravenna on this years IBC.
Other vendors that I talked with, promised to release new Ravenna based products this coming year.
What I am waiting for is silicon that simplifies integration, so far most solutions use FPGA's, which limits the amount of concurrent channels due to restricted processing capacity.

I would like to get in touch with people developing on Ravenna.
I have attached a document describing the operation principles.

 

[mhelin]

Aren't there any open source audio over ethernet protocols? I can't understand the prices of these new devices. Like Roland is asking over $2000 (SALE PRICE) for this REAC stage box: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/S1608

Couldn't we just make up some protocol and then DIY the converter boxes & ASIO drivers for much less?

 

[Kingston]

I can't understand the prices of these new devices.

That's 16 AD's, 8 DAC's and somebody had to design and program that protocol.

 

[mhelin]

I can't understand the prices of these new devices.

That's 16 AD's, 8 DAC's and somebody had to design and program that protocol.

That guy must be quite rich by now.

Anyway, found that there is the open AES50 standard but that is replaced by some new one. Regarding companies also Behringer has found there is money to make:

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/S16.aspx
http://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_s16.htm

They (Uli B. & son) decided to use just that AES50 which is also called SuperMAC by Klark Teknik which is now happily owned by Uli B. who got Midas & Klark Teknik from Bosch.

http://www.supermac-hypermac.com/

Interesting see if you can buy the UltraMAC versions ultra low price soon.

For DIY'ers the netjack2 would be fine, or for some experimental use the msx-ethernet-audio (http://msx-ethernet-audio.googlecode.com/svn-history/r5/trunk/etherplay/etherplay.c ) might be fine. Either netjack2 nor msx-ethernet-audio use pure ethernet though.

 

[bremusound]

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/audinate_launches_dante_ultimo_integrated_networked_audio/news

"Audinate has announced the newest member of the Dante product family: Ultimo, a fully-featured, ready-to-use Dante interface for networked audio products integrated into a single 13 x 13 mm chip.

By providing an integrated, cost-effective networked audio solution over a 100Mbps Ethernet interface, Ultimo extends the benefits of Dante networking to a wide new range of audio devices.

Dante is currently licensed by over 70 OEM manufacturers, and Dante networked devices are currently being designed into hundreds of AV OEM products.

Ultimo delivers a low-cost, small-footprint solution without sacrificing audio quality. As with Audinate’s other networked products, Ultimo uses high-quality, low-jitter clocks with ±μs time alignment between networked devices. It does not require specialized switches, and works with existing network infrastructure.

Ultimo includes well-established Dante features like automatic device discovery, plug-and-play networking, network-based firmware updates, and customization of device names and channel labels.

“The Ultimo integrated chip solution accelerates the migration from analog to digital signal distribution,” says Gary Southwell, Audinate vice president of product management. “Ultimo allows our OEMs to achieve their desired cost targets for networked low channel count endpoints for the first time. It is already a success, and is actively being designed into commercial products by many of the industry’s largest and most recognized AV OEMs.”

Applications targeted for Ultimo include powered loudspeakers, microphones, speakerphones, amplifiers, paging stations, personal monitoring systems, AV wall plates, recording interfaces, analog/digital break-in/break out, and musical instruments."

 

[rkn80]

Read that to in the Audinate newsletter.
Well I'm really not scared by SMD's but if it really comes in BGA package then it is really not easy to diy. You will probably give it to a company let them solder it on your PCB.

R.

 

[bremusound]

Yes indeed, but with some luck they'll release an eval board?

 

[rkn80]

Yes indeed, but with some luck they'll release an eval board?

And that will cost so much, that you can directly by RedNet by focusrite...

 

[audiomixer]

For those considering a DANTE solution for recording / playback or measurements there is a nice promotion at audinates webpage for the software sound card. I think I will buy some licenses for future use. their new chipset is also promising, enabling 2in 2out solutions that should be cheaper to make. probably not for us DIY, it's a 144 BGA chip, bugger!

We could check if there is a development board.....

link:
http://www.audinate.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&product_id=49&category_id=13&page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_cart.tpl

cheers,

Michael