Audio Historians - REDD/RCA/Langevin/RFT Lorentz/WSW

[matriachamplification]

Lots of things I've never found schematics or manuals for, many/most of which I've drawn out myself.  Dozens of things I drew myself years before the schematic finally surfaced.

Reverse Engineering. Very interesting. Another area I had not fully considered. Thanks!

 

[Squeaky]

Touching on the other subject, I'll be banished if I share.  It was different from the one that is posted.

Don't get banished mate. I never knew there were any valve Neves. Is there a Germanium Neve out there somewhere as well?

 

[ruffrecords]

Don't get banished mate. I never knew there were any valve Neves. Is there a Germanium Neve out there somewhere as well?

There is definitely a valve Neve. I have the schematic.

The first few consoles Rupert made starting in 1964 were germanium. Schematics can be found on the web.

Cheers

Ian

 

[ruffrecords]

Further to the prior discussion as to whether Neve, Swettenham and perhaps others all derived their three transistor design from a single article in Wireless World, I have looked at issues beyond 1965. In the June 1967 issue I came across an article about transistor amplifier design in which a circuit remarkable like the Helios three transistor amplifier occurs. It is apparently called a "ring of three" amplifier. This is not a term I have heard before and so far Google has not proven very helpful. In the meantime I attach the relevant article from WW.

Cheers

Ian

 

[wlinart]

I just wanted to say that this is one of the most informative threads i've ever seen here, much information and history is exchanged. Keep going please

 

[ruffrecords]

In a further twist, searching for "ring of three" amplifier turns up the Altec 1588B, the circuit of which is very reminiscent of early Neve. Anyone know when the 1588B came out?

Cheers

Ian

 

[matriachamplification]

Yeah.  I reverse engineered one of the early tube Neve's for the owner years ago. 

That is very cool! I will have to look for your other posting.

There is definitely a valve Neve. I have the schematic.

As Mr. Thompson-Bell and Doug are aware my family and I have been working for some time on a Neve story that dates not only Ruperts (RIP) history but the lineage or Mr. Thompson-Bells time while at the company.

That said, I never knew there was a Neve Tube Console! I am overcome with thoughts on this subject! Emails are being sent

I just wanted to say that this is one of the most informative threads i've ever seen here, much information and history is exchanged. Keep going please

Agree completely!

 

[Squeaky]

There is definitely a valve Neve. I have the schematic.

The first few consoles Rupert made starting in 1964 were germanium. Schematics can be found on the web.

Thanks for that Ian. I'll have a look to see if they were as loaded with as many xfmrs as his later efforts. Your detective work has made me wonder about relationships between three transistors amps and fuzz pedals that were developed around the same time? I believe people have tried to establish (or there are) connections in this regard? Not sure what truth there is to all that. I might have a dig on the internet... Looks like there are references to a Hendrix Octavia pedal? Designed by Roger Mayer? I had a look online at the Octavia schematic, prima facie very Helios-like.

 

[Perm0]

I posted this before in this thread;

https://www.youtube.com/user/soundtechniques/videos

Listen to the man (Geoff Frost) himself, he tells the whole story, how his first mixer was a complete faillure and how he used to destroy expensive germanium transistors at an army lab trying to build an amp with them.

It's chopped in 5 min vids, start at the bottom of the page.

 

[pvision]

I would very much like to see a Designer Family Tree in the style of Rick Frame's Rock Family Trees

The chronology of inventions / milestones / published designs & patents would be interesting when cross-referenced with designers & companies

I'd like to see where people like Paul Buff, Ray Dolby & Graham Langley sit in the pantheon

Nick Froome

 

[ruffrecords]

Further to the prior discussion as to whether Neve, Swettenham and perhaps others all derived their three transistor design from a single article in Wireless World, I have looked at issues beyond 1965. In the June 1967 issue I came across an article about transistor amplifier design in which a circuit remarkable like the Helios three transistor amplifier occurs. It is apparently called a "ring of three" amplifier. This is not a term I have heard before and so far Google has not proven very helpful. In the meantime I attach the relevant article from WW.

Cheers

Ian

I thought I would keep looking through Wireless World to see if there was any further information about the ring of three. In the very next issue in the letters to the editor section was a letter head 'Ring of Three'. It turned out to be from the inventor of the 'Ring of Three'. In fact he had patented it ten years earlier and described it in an article in the 'Electronic and Radio Engineer' magazine back in 1957.  So here is a possible publication of the  'ring of three' that Rupert and the other could perhaps have seem well before they designed there own circuits. Attached is the letter from Wireless World.

Cheers

Ian

 

[ruffrecords]

I thought I would keep looking through Wireless World to see if there was any further information about the ring of three. In the very next issue in the letters to the editor section was a letter head 'Ring of Three'. It turned out to be from the inventor of the 'Ring of Three'. In fact he had patented it ten years earlier and described it in an article in the 'Electronic and Radio Engineer' magazine back in 1957.  So here is a possible publication of the  'ring of three' that Rupert and the other could perhaps have seem well before they designed there own circuits. Attached is the letter from Wireless World.

Cheers

Ian

And now I have found the original patent (attached).

All I need now it to find the original article.

Cheers

Ian

 

[matriachamplification]

I cannot get a reply off fast enough!

On the subject of a Family Tree. Its simply outside of our mandate to take on. The reason being there are  too many console manufactueres of the past whose Brands are now resurfacing who no longer make consoles. This caused too many complications for us to reserch and, with the exception of Neve/BBC, in the end we decided to focus on Mr. Thompson-Bells CTC designs and the extended designers from his documentation exclusively.

REDD . HELIOS . NEVE . BBC . PULTEC . RCA

Within this hive of designs there are so many designers who have surfaced in this thread alone. And with the revelation that Neve made a Valve Console, we are about a max capacity for historical intake lol.

We will be posting recordings on our website and will let everyone know here when the first few are complete.

www.majesticelectric.org
 

 

[leadbreath]

Awesome thread gents!!

 

[12afael]

https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/60s/Wireless-World-1967-06.pdf
there is the complete Wireless world June 67 magazine where the 3 transistor ring appear.

 

[ruffrecords]

https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/60s/Wireless-World-1967-06.pdf
there is the complete Wireless world June 67 magazine where the 3 transistor ring appear.

Yes, I already posted that a while back. The thing is, Rupert's first three transistor based mixer came out three years before this. I now know that a three transistor circuit was first published in the May 1957 edition of Electronic and Radio Engineer magazine. Now if you can find a copy of that one I will be impressed.

Cheers

Ian

 

[12afael]

you mean the Journal of the British Institution of Radio Engineers May 1957?

there are some articles here but they ask some money for them.
https://digital-library.theiet.org/content/journals/jbire/17/5

- The properties of semi-conductor devices

- The design of phase-linear intermediate-frequency amplifiers

Published from 1939-1962, the Journal of the British Institution of Radio Engineers presented the proceedings of meetings held by that Institution on the science, art and practise of radio engineering.

This journal was previously known as Radio and Electronic Engineer 1963-1984. ISSN 0033-7722. more..

This journal was previously known as Proceedings of the British Institution of Radio Engineers 1963-1964. ISSN 2050-2664. more..

This journal was previously known as Proceedings of the Indian Division of the British Institution of Radio Engineers 1963-1963. ISSN 2278-7224. more..

 

[ruffrecords]

you mean the Journal of the British Institution of Radio Engineers May 1957?

Unfortunately not.  Electronic and Radio Engineer was a publication of the Radio Research Board (under whose auspices radar was invented) and after 1959 it was renamed Industrial Engineer.

There seems to be a number of magazines based on permutations of these words. I have contacted the archives of the Radio research Board to ask if they can find it for me. I have found that paper/microfiche  copies exist in the British Library and Cambridge University Library but I would have to travel there to see them which is not permitted at the moment in the UK.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Heikki]

I found the site where I got the BBC limiter manuals
https://www.bbceng.info/ti/aco-post-1960.htm


http://www.bbceng.info/ti/eqpt/LIM_2.pdf

http://www.bbceng.info/ti/eqpt/LIM_5.pdf

http://www.bbceng.info/ti/eqpt/LIM_6.pdf

And here's a link to BBC R&D report on limiter design
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1940-07.pdf

 

[ruffrecords]

I finally got a copy of the original May 1957 article by J. Somerset Murray that is referred to in the 1967 Wireless World article that is the first instance I can find of an article covering three transistor amplifiers l=similar to the ones used by Neve and Helios.

I was hoping that this might be the mythical common article all the greats were supposed to have read and then derived their circuits from - but I think it falls short. As you can see from the article attached, it really only cover the basic bog standard dc coupled pair although at the end it mentions extending the scheme to three transistors. It does however mention the patent application so I guess it is just about possible they all went out and got a copy of it but I remain sceptical.

Cheers

Ian