Brexit

[tony hunt]

All the drudgery of the mid to late Seventies in the UK led to some great music.

 

[ruffrecords]

All the drudgery of the mid to late Seventies in the UK led to some great music.

Nah, that was all the folk still high on drugs from the end of the 60s.

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

Not exactly Brexit but do my EU friends have any thoughts about the French rioting over fuel (tax) surcharges, wrt longevity of common market union?

Admittedly the rioters are only a tiny fraction of the population, and they seem to still want to protest after Macron blinked and rolled back the tax, so it may just be an excuse to burn cars.

JR 

 

[DaveP]

Ever since 1789, it has been the French fashion to build barricades and protest, it would not be allowed in the UK.

They are a very conservative society and basically want their elected government to give them higher wages and reduce the retirement age without any painful reforms that might be necessary to achieve such an outcome.

Macron has such an enormous majority in parliament, that the only way for the extreme left and right to redress the balance is to infiltrate the protesters and make him look weak and unpopular.  They can't win at the ballot box so they try to win on the streets.
If he lets them create havoc he looks weak, if he suppresses the protesters he is a tyrant, that's the game plan IMHO.

DaveP

 

[abbey road d enfer]

They are a very conservative society and basically want their elected government to give them higher wages and reduce the retirement age without any painful reforms that might be necessary to achieve such an outcome.

I won't question that but the decision to increase the gas tax on the pretext of preserving the environment has just been the straw that broke the camel back. Macron thought it would be easy because there's a vast majority of people who want to "do something for the climate", however they don't want to be forced to do it at a pace that overturns their everyday life. They want ecologic transition, not ecologic traumatism.
The french have been living in the illusion of an easy and protected life, under the lies of the successive governments since 1981; Macron is trying to wake them up to the reality, but he does that too hard. One must not suddenly wake a sleepwalker.

 

[DaveP]

Macron thought it would be easy because there's a vast majority of people who want to "do something for the climate", however they don't want to be forced to do it at a pace that overturns their everyday life. They want ecologic transition, not ecologic traumatism.

This is true, We want to change our diesel car for electric, but we cannot afford to immediately.  We will buy a last generation petrol car next year with the hope that electric become affordable when we next change.

DaveP

 

[abbey road d enfer]

We will buy a last generation petrol car next year with the hope that electric become affordable when we next change.

I think I'll buy an electric only when smokies (les fumeuses, as they are known amongst electric mobility activists) are completely banned from big cities. In the meantime, other technologies may emerge. It seems hydrogen solutions (either thermic or electric/fuel cell) are making progress.

 

[DaveP]

This year, our nearest big town provided just 2 electric charging points!  There is insufficient infra structure for immediate changes and I doubt the electricity system could cope with millions of cars charging overnight.  If we only have 12 years to change our energy lifestyle, I can't see us making it.

Back on topic:-
One of the most critical days in UK history tomorrow.  no-one knows where or what it will lead to.

DaveP

 

[zamproject]

Hello

Back on topic:-
One of the most critical days in UK history tomorrow.  no-one knows where or what it will lead to.

DaveP

Yes it is...

Interesting what Curia confirm today, called by Scottish, unexpected hypothetical backdoor.

I will follow with great interest the tomorrow vote  :-\

Best
Zam

 

[warpie]

I will follow with great interest the tomorrow vote  :-\

Apparently there will be no voting tomorrow...

 

[pvision]

Apparently there will be no voting tomorrow...

And Sterling is at its lowest point for 20 years

Taking back control?

 

[ruffrecords]

And Sterling is at its lowest point for 20 years

Taking back control?

Not necessarily a bad thing. It discourages imports and makes our  products cheaper.

Order your tube mixer now!!

Cheers

Ian

 

[pvision]

20 months, not 20 years. My bad, as they say over the pond

 

[Tubetec]

Trump made no secret of the fact he wanted the E.U pulled down , My guess is wrecking the EU would also be in Putin's favour.
I certainly wouldnt discount the use of external  'agent provocateur' , working just to add fuel to the fire .

Theres definately been an upswing of troubles in the border counties of Ireland lately too . I have even heard stories of both republican and unionist paramilitaries(former deadly enemies) in the north banding together to 'move on' non white refugees who try to settle there.
As always more working class ,poorer people who've had tough lives are more susceptable to turning on 'Foreigners' .Trumps rhetoric in particular I view as incitement ,and its effect is felt far far beyond the US .
Mrs May is one step from political end game/suicide ,and the reason is she's too moderate for some of her counterparts and for the wave of nationalism thats dividing her own country now . Starting war in Lybia then Syria turned out a very effective method of destabillising and causing trouble within Europes borders  .  The only downside to May getting washed out with the tide is there's a chance the likes of Johnson , Recce Mogg with their  fist waving and  'make Britain Great again' speeches,  getting to power .

As far as I can see Ireland could get  the worst  fall out for disagreement between the EU and UK , The UK could very easily put the squeeze on us in Ireland to try and leverage a better deal for itself from the EU . This will of course bring back memories of the bad old days of empire and the famine ,which lets face it was an attempt to wipe us off the face of the planet and clear land for planting . 

A couple of  weeks back  we tried to get info and a quote on parts from a UK distributor of Italian made welding equipment at work , not even as much as a reply , looks like they don't even want to be bothered  dealing with us here anymore  :-\

 

[abbey road d enfer]

As always more working class ,poorer people who've had tough lives are more susceptable to turning on 'Foreigners' .Trumps rhetoric in particular I view as incitement ,and its effect is felt far far beyond the US .

Pointing fingers at scapegoats has always been a cliché of vile politics. It works for a time.

The only downside to May getting washed out with the tide is there's a chance the likes of Johnson , Recce Mogg with their  fist waving and  'make Britain Great again' speeches,  getting to power .

I think Ms. May is several notches below Thatcher in terms of villainy. She took the job nobody wanted, played the part and takes the flak.  But what do I know?...

A couple of  weeks back  we tried to get info and a quote on parts from a UK distributor of Italian made welding equipment at work , not even as much as a reply , looks like they don't even want to be bothered  dealing with us here anymore  :-\

They have their own problems there. Industrialists and entrepreneurs there are very concerned, in contrast to the popular fervor.

 

[Tubetec]

Fair and measured points as always Abbey ,

I think the cry 'off with her head' will be heard soon in relation to Theresa May , Johnson  and Reece- Mogg have hands on the guillotine rope and are poised to decap her politically if offered the chance. May made the mistake of courting the extremists to get to power , maybe she simply  isnt ruthless enough to carry through on the promisses she made  ,win loose or draw in this situation ,backfire and law of unintended consequences looks like it  will cause a huge mess  on all sides 

 

[DaveP]

Starting war in Libya then Syria turned out a very effective method of destabillising and causing trouble within Europes borders 

I think you will find this is an inaccurate statement.  The Arab Spring started in Tunisia all on its own, it then started to spread to other Arab countries.
Gaddafi  started to put it down and Britain, France and the US intervened to stop mass murder, the road to hell is paved with good intentions as they say.  Assad put down his own Arab Spring without direct European intervention, did that turn out any better?  It could be argued that Merkel caused the problems within Europe's borders with her good intentions!  She certainly influenced the Brexit Vote.

This will of course bring back memories of the bad old days of empire and the famine ,which lets face it was an attempt to wipe us off the face of the planet and clear land for planting .

While this was indeed  a terrible affair, it does no good to extend 21st century morality to 19th century events. which is what many students are obsessed with nowadays.

This was only 10 years after the abolition of slavery in the empire and UK citizens were just as oppressed and disenfranchised with no voting rights and no property.  Laissez Faire economics prevailed until about 1940, so we were 100 years from understanding the economics of the Irish Famine.  Add to that the contemporary religious distrust and superstition about divine judgement and you can see that they were ill-equipped to deal with the disaster on every level.  I can understand the issues even though my genetic roots are in the west of Ireland.

This gives a fair explanation:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.shtml

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

Trump made no secret of the fact he wanted the E.U pulled down , My guess is wrecking the EU would also be in Putin's favour.
I certainly wouldnt discount the use of external  'agent provocateur' , working just to add fuel to the fire .

That didn't take long  (everything must be Trump's fault. )  :

If anything President Trump has lobbied EU leaders to meet their NATO spending commitments to help defend themselves against external threats.

Indeed Putin actively works to disrupt and weaken democratic governments around the world.

Theres definately been an upswing of troubles in the border counties of Ireland lately too . I have even heard stories of both republican and unionist paramilitaries(former deadly enemies) in the north banding together to 'move on' non white refugees who try to settle there.
As always more working class ,poorer people who've had tough lives are more susceptable to turning on 'Foreigners' .Trumps rhetoric in particular I view as incitement ,and its effect is felt far far beyond the US .

President Trump did not start the rise of populism, he just rode the wave into office. Methinks you give him too much credit/blame.

Mrs May is one step from political end game/suicide ,and the reason is she's too moderate for some of her counterparts and for the wave of nationalism thats dividing her own country now .

She inherited a can of worms...  Local self rule seems desirable to most, odd that so many are willing to answer to some bureaucrats in Brussels or wherever...

Starting war in Lybia then Syria turned out a very effective method of destabillising and causing trouble within Europes borders  .

I have been paying attention to this stuff for a while...  Deposing Gaddafi (after he abandoned his WMD program mades little sense IMO). Best I can tell there is some pretty old history between Italy and Libya, but France joined that party too... now they are having some disagreements over the mess on the ground. 

Syrian fighting was an ongoing civil war against the Assad government that started during the "arab spring" that swept across the entire middle east. Since then western powers have intervened to try to stop massacres of innocent civilians in rebel areas of Syria. The west has supported Assad's opposition because he is not friendly to the west. Recently Putin has become his buddy (to secure a military sea port in Tartus, Syria and expans his influence in the region).

Coincidentally ISIS attempted to establish their caliphate in the no-mans land between Iraq and Syria, but that seems to be pretty effectively diminished now (diminished but not completely gone. Just like  al Qaeda is not completely gone.).   

  The only downside to May getting washed out with the tide is there's a chance the likes of Johnson , Recce Mogg with their  fist waving and  'make Britain Great again' speeches,  getting to power .

As far as I can see Ireland could get  the worst  fall out for disagreement between the EU and UK , The UK could very easily put the squeeze on us in Ireland to try and leverage a better deal for itself from the EU . This will of course bring back memories of the bad old days of empire and the famine ,which lets face it was an attempt to wipe us off the face of the planet and clear land for planting . 

A couple of  weeks back  we tried to get info and a quote on parts from a UK distributor of Italian made welding equipment at work , not even as much as a reply , looks like they don't even want to be bothered  dealing with us here anymore  :-\

Good luck... right now it looks like BREXIT is up for review and possible renegotiation... but of course I don't know much, which is why I bumped this thread...

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

I think you will find this is an inaccurate statement.  The Arab Spring started in Tunisia all on its own, it then started to spread to other Arab countries.
Gaddafi  started to put it down and Britain, France and the US intervened to stop mass murder, the road to hell is paved with good intentions as they say. 

History reports many mass killings in Libya between 1911 and 2011, some involving thousands of people. There were also killings after Gaddafi was deposed (go figure).  The fighting in Libya was one where President Obama famously "led from behind"  :. The US supplied much material support (munitions etc), but AFAIK did not drive this bus.

Assad put down his own Arab Spring without direct European intervention, did that turn out any better?

not over yet, but he is clearly winning with Russian and Iranian support. The west is watching closely to avoid any more atrocities in the end game.

It could be argued that Merkel caused the problems within Europe's borders with her good intentions! 

I miscalculation that the immigrants could provide cost effective and productive workers for Germany's factories. She underestimated the cultural conflict . 

Coincidentally Japan has just announced that it will allow for tens of thousands of immigrant workers there. Hard to grow a vibrant economy without young workers and consumers.

She certainly influenced the Brexit Vote.

Clearly one of several factors but it sure seems that free transit across EU borders is one very important issue. 

In the US we have some politicians who argue securing our own border is somehow immoral.

While this was indeed  a terrible affair, it does no good to extend 21st century morality to 19th century events. which is what many students are obsessed with nowadays.

This was only 10 years after the abolition of slavery in the empire and UK citizens were just as oppressed and disenfranchised with no voting rights and no property.  Laissez Faire economics prevailed until about 1940, so we were 100 years from understanding the economics of the Irish Famine.  Add to that the contemporary religious distrust and superstition about divine judgement and you can see that they were ill-equipped to deal with the disaster on every level.  I can understand the issues even though my genetic roots are in the west of Ireland.

This gives a fair explanation:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.shtml

DaveP

I like that somebody is referring to history at all, but we must try to be accurate and understand that cultures change and evolve over time.

JR

 

[ruffrecords]

I like that somebody is referring to history at all, but we must try to be accurate and understand that cultures change and evolve over time.

JR

It is extremely difficult to be accurate about history, even recent history, because that demands we be objective but that is impossible.

Cheers

Ian