Brexit

[iomegaman]

Any sufficiently advanced alien race would probably squash us like bugs, or ignore/hide from us.

===

Brexit is getting interesting again...

JR

Train wrecks loaded with burning dumpsters full of toxic waste are hard to ignore...it has become politically fashionable to be outrageously provocative again...pretty much just amps in the political circuit overheating resistors and making tubes burn hot...

Negative feedback used to be a thing, now its just ignored.

 

[Script]

Work and pensions secretary Amber Rudd quit for 'political vandalism'.

Interesting choice of words.

 

[DaveP]

The rebel politicians seem to be unaware of how angry the people are over Brext.

These are not the voters on the streets, they are the ones sitting at home fuming at the delay and the denial of a general election.

With a normal parliament, an alternative would have been agreed on by now, all they can think of is further delay and the polls show that it is costing them votes.

They are preventing a general election because they know they will lose, that is an act against democracy far worse than anything Boris has done. and the people will punish them for it, I say this as a remain voter who can see what is happening.

DaveP

 

[living sounds]

The rebel politicians seem to be unaware of how angry the people are over Brext.

Part of "the people". Some people. The usual demographic, in Germany we call them "Wutbürger".  Many of them get fed the kind of outragous misinformation that the modern media environment unfortunately cannot prevent.

Don't forget, that Brexit vote was probably delivered by Cambridge Analytica (right wing dark money influence) and the Russian government.

There is a big percentage who don't want a Bexit, at all.

And there is a big majority who doesn't want to jump over a cliff.

So please don't call it "the people" in this way. That's how dictatorships did and do it, from fascists all the way to stalinists...

 

[DaveP]

So please don't call it "the people" in this way. That's how dictatorships did and do it, from fascists all the way to stalinists...

OK, we'll call them voters if that makes you feel better, just look at their opinions on this poll.....

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/

You have to add the Brexit Party to the Conservative vote.

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

The rebel politicians seem to be unaware of how angry the people are over Brext.

These are not the voters on the streets, they are the ones sitting at home fuming at the delay and the denial of a general election.

With a normal parliament, an alternative would have been agreed on by now, all they can think of is further delay and the polls show that it is costing them votes.

They are preventing a general election because they know they will lose, that is an act against democracy far worse than anything Boris has done. and the people will punish them for it, I say this as a remain voter who can see what is happening.

DaveP

It seems like real test of how long the political elite can resist the apparent will of the people. While the majority probably does not want a hard exit with negative consequences. Brussels is not motivated to give up what they have, so threat of a hard exit could be a useful negotiating tool, if allowed to play it believably. 

Legislators are supposed to be thoughtful and avoid impulsive action, but they have been kicking this can down the road for years. One almost has to ask whose interests  are they serving?  Apparently west London was a little swampy too...  more fresh air and a lot of sunlight could clear that up.

Of course there are huge economic interests lobbying for both sides of this decision (three sides? Stay, hard exit, soft exit)... I don't think anybody is in favor of perpetually doing nothing (fourth option?), except maybe the politicians.

If they are trying to negotiate a favorable soft exit deal with Brussels this does not seem like how to do it. The UK needs to show unity and strength, not weakness and discord.

JR

PS: Sorry I appreciate there are more than just local economic interests involved, there are multiple moving parts to this deal. Representative governance involves compromises for any diverse population. Good luck to all personally affected.

 

[Script]

As for BoJo's tactics -- they have been so obvious (almost clumsily obvious) right from the start, but with so very little prospect of success -- no matter how united the UK as one voice. The EU simply can't afford further concessions of that kind -- purely politically that is! A hard brexit will hurt (sure and a lot and they will resent Britain that) but they can afford  -- purely economically that is.

-----

Above I was really only referring to the 'language' being used over the last week.

do or die
surrender
dictatorship
dead in a ditch
now: vandalism

Language that implies a lot of violence. Even the word 'rebels' sounds like coming straight out of a Star Wars movie... 

From this side of the world, what had started as Cameron's folly, and which has been clearly hijacked by the political right wing, has over the last week finally triggered the beginning of changes in the British political landscape -- at last! Changes that everyone must have been desperate for. I see politicians, who have been accused for years, nay decades, of being self-complacent elitist, finally having to come out of their cosy hiding places and publicly say what they want and what they really stand for. So I wonder: Who in Britain would benefit most from that stopping right now.

To me, people sitting on their couches 'fuming' sounds like a dream scenario and outcome straight out of the far right-wing guidebook of secret tactics. I am not British, but I like Britain. And from this side of the world, I already clearly hear the British right-wing minority (who they are ! ) chuckle, shed tears of joy and cheer very loudly in the background.

From what I read and understand, ALL British politicians want relections. They have wanted it ever since May took over. And I'm sure we'll see them soon. I just hope British people won't allow a political folly to turn into something foolish.

 

[Script]

Polls don't mean anything. They are part of propaganda.

 

[Tubetec]

As if the average voting public had one idea what exactly Brexit entailed before they voted for it ,the whole show  was rolled out on the back of  a Trumpism  'Make (insert country here )Great Again ' .

Yet another viable explosive device was uncovered near the border between the Republic and the six counties of Northern Ireland  yesterday , its just a matter of time before people are getting hurt again . The Government we have in place here have and are showing themselves up to being very out of touch with everything apart from 'upper middle class surburbia' ,we are also well over due an election here ,but a hotch potch arrangement of the two main opposing parties has held it together because 'Brexit' is coming . Unfortunately its the people of the border counties will suffer most when Brexit hits , and guess what, these are also some of the most hardline (Irish)Republican areas in the country , its not going to end well ,for anyone .

Ive seen a few touch off the fact that this whole political social media circus is killing democracy , or at very least hugely amplifying the power of the darker,hidden unseen elements who know no boundaries borders or laws .

Heres a pic of our man of the moment here in Ireland , Leo Varadkar , those buck'd front teeth are a sure sign of thumb sucking according to the dental people 

 

[JohnRoberts]

As if the average voting public had one idea what exactly Brexit entailed before they voted for it ,the whole show  was rolled out on the back of  a Trumpism  'Make (insert country here )Great Again ' .

President Trump and others are riding that same international wave of populism. President Trump did not create the wave. Methinks you give him too much credit.  8)

Yet another viable explosive device was uncovered near the border between the Republic and the six counties of Northern Ireland  yesterday , its just a matter of time before people are getting hurt again . The Government we have in place here have and are showing themselves up to being very out of touch with everything apart from 'upper middle class surburbia' ,we are also well over due an election here ,but a hotch potch arrangement of the two main opposing parties has held it together because 'Brexit' is coming . Unfortunately its the people of the border counties will suffer most when Brexit hits , and guess what, these are also some of the most hardline (Irish)Republican areas in the country , its not going to end well ,for anyone .

Yes this is one of those "other consequences" I alluded to.  Borders kind of matter. I didn't realize how delicate the peace there is. This is another aspect to be managed and I have seen reports that people are working on solutions, unclear if they are any further along than the general Brexit mismanagement apparent publicly. Likewise somebody probably benefits from stirring this pot.

Ive seen a few touch off the fact that this whole political social media circus is killing democracy , or at very least hugely amplifying the power of the darker,hidden unseen elements who know no boundaries borders or laws .

There have always been global bad actors, but modern social media extends their reach and ability to perform mischief safely and anonymously from a distance. Social media is not the bad guy, the bad guys are, but we must be vigilant to new tools they have available.

Heres a pic of our man of the moment here in Ireland , Leo Varadkar , those buck'd front teeth are a sure sign of a thumb sucking according to the dental people 

and you didn't? (I did as a baby  :-[ but I stopped before becoming the next bucky beaver). Surely there is something more relevant about him to criticize than his appearance? 

JR

 

[Tubetec]

Ah ok ,I have to concede Donnie  didnt invent the game , but he knows how to soul surf the publicity wave , divide and conquer.

Yeah the appearance remark was a bit of a low blow , my  real beef  is the utter contempt  with which Mr Varadkar is treating 3.2 million peoples data  in relation to a 'public services card' which is on faulty ground legally.
Ive been on the front line in opposition to  this data retention for three years now ,and foregone quite a chunk of my 'entitlemments' because of it , Ive made political gestures at the highest level ,well second highest to Leo himself , all Ive got for my three years campaigning is obfuscation delay and stonewall from every single government department Ive contacted .
Crazy thing about it ,my grandmother ,god rest her was one of the founding members of the ruling party Mr Varadkar belongs too back in the 1930's here (blueshirts) , my dad nearly blew a fuse when I roared ,    '  I'll never vote for this shower of (expletive witheld) Nazi's again' . 

 

[ruffrecords]

The rebel politicians seem to be unaware of how angry the people are over Brext.

These are not the voters on the streets, they are the ones sitting at home fuming at the delay and the denial of a general election.

With a normal parliament, an alternative would have been agreed on by now, all they can think of is further delay and the polls show that it is costing them votes.

They are preventing a general election because they know they will lose, that is an act against democracy far worse than anything Boris has done. and the people will punish them for it, I say this as a remain voter who can see what is happening.

DaveP

Damn right we will. We taught them a lesson with the referendum. Maybe they need to stay after class and have it beaten into them.

Cheers

Ian

 

[ruffrecords]

Part of "the people". Some people. The usual demographic, in Germany we call them "Wutbürger".  Many of them get fed the kind of outragous misinformation that the modern media environment unfortunately cannot prevent.

Don't forget, that Brexit vote was probably delivered by Cambridge Analytica (right wing dark money influence) and the Russian government.

There is a big percentage who don't want a Bexit, at all.

And there is a big majority who doesn't want to jump over a cliff.

So please don't call it "the people" in this way. That's how dictatorships did and do it, from fascists all the way to stalinists...

It is very easy to misjudge the mood of a people from outside the country. I can tell you as someone who actually lives in England and talks to his friends and neighbours a lot, that everyone I speak to, irrespective of age or political leaning, is royally pissed of with these plonkers.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Tubetec]

Surely the hallmark of good leadership is and always was an ability to bring people together ?
Why are truly divisive individuals gaining power everywhere?

 

[DaveP]

Surely the hallmark of good leadership is and always was an ability to bring people together ?
Why are truly divisive individuals gaining power everywhere?

This is true and the answer is Social Media IMHO, it has polarised the population and allows everyone the ability to post their own propaganda which was formerly only possible by the state or newspaper barons.  Andy Warhol got it so right.

DaveP

 

[living sounds]

OK, we'll call them voters if that makes you feel better, just look at their opinions on this poll.....

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/

You have to add the Brexit Party to the Conservative vote.

DaveP

Have you actually added up the numbers? Labour + Lib Dems + Greens + SNP together get 51% according to the latest polling average. The messed up voting system and it's distorting effects notwithstanding, of course.

And if you scroll down further on that website you can see that there has been a stable majority for the "remain" position for well over a year.

Again, it is far more likely than not that Trump would not have won and Brexit would not have happened without manipulative interference on social media by certain interest groups, see my post above. These groups are working in their own interests on turning people in western democracies against each other.

And let allow me to add that it is ironic how the Brits, who for centuries sailed around the world plundering and raping other countries and taking what they wanted (India was the richest country in the world before the East India Company came), but now many of them want their island cut off from the rest because they think too many brown people arrive at their shores.

 

[DaveP]

Have you actually added up the numbers? Labour + Lib Dems + Greens + SNP together get 51% according to the latest polling average. The messed up voting system and it's distorting effects notwithstanding, of course.

The voting system means that the party with the largest number of votes forms the next government, that was the point.  So Boris will win the next election, if the other parties had a plan, they would have voted for it.

And let allow me to add that it is ironic how the Brits, who for centuries sailed around the world plundering and raping other countries and taking what they wanted (India was the richest country in the world before the East India Company came), but now many of them want their island cut off from the rest because they think too many brown people arrive at their shores.

Nobody today likes what our ancestors did, that sentiment is probably stronger in your country than any other.  They did what everyone at the time did, the morality came later.  Don't forget that India is the most institutionally racist country in the world.  What we don't have in Britain is Lebensraum, the price of houses tells you that, the doors are open to people who like to live a British life, but not to people who practice FGM, forced marriages, honour killings etc.  It is not just brown people, it is the culture they bring with them that is unsuitable in a modern society.

DaveP

 

[Script]

Nothing to worry about. Read that Farage wants to de-retire and come to the rescue  (irony! But wait, no, actually not ironic)

 

[DaveP]

Britain does not have a problem with "Brown People" like these:-
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-49599377

Only with ones like these:-
https://www.itv.com/news/2018-08-08/rochdale-grooming-gang-members-face-possible-deportation-after-losing-appeal/

DaveP

 

[Script]

Just read about speculations that BoJo might now reconsider old May plan of placing backstop border in the sea between both Irelands and the rest of the UK. Meaning, both Irelands more or less 'stay' in the EU customs union for now (until a solution has been found for the inner Irish border), while the rest of the UK mainland leaves under an official deal.

Briefly discussed under May, this plan had been veto'ed back then by DUP (May's coalition partner) and conservative Unionists. Not sure how this plan would go down now in Northern Ireland (referendum: 44.2% leave versus 55.8% remain).