Brexit

[abbey road d enfer]

Please stop using the term far right, which would have been Oswald Mosely back in the thirties.

Isn't "right" a moving target?
There was a time, not so long ago, when "right" was almost an expletive, no one would want to be qualified of being "right-wing".
Now right just means "morally good, justified, or acceptable." or "true or correct as a fact." (from the Oxford dictionary).
At least that the case in France, where, thanks to president Sarkozy and cohort, came the notion of "unabashed right", but I am convinced this concept permeated to many other European countries.
Before that, the antonym of "left" was not "right", it was "republican", "popular", "conservative", "liberal", "democratic".
As a consequence of immigration  pressure, multiculturalism and terrorism, far-right parties have gained popularity, and in reaction, the barycentre of traditional "right" has moved further right.

 

[DaveP]

France has always had more extremes than the UK, from Action Francaise in 1900 through to the PCF in 1920.  There are very few actual communists in the UK, but here in France they are an actual party.  In the UK there was the National Front back in 67 but they were never big enough to contest an election.  British communists  from the 1930's often ended up spying for Russia.

On the whole, the UK  is more conservative than France but our fathers and grandfathers fought against the far right in the last war so there is little traction there.  Uncontrolled immigration caused the rise of the Brexit Party, but it is a "single issue" party, so when that issue is resolved, it will have lost its raison d'etre.

DaveP

 

[L´Andratté]

Before that, the antonym of "left" was not "right", it was "republican", "popular", "conservative", "liberal", "democratic".

Interesting observation! Language is so revealing.

As a consequence of immigration  pressure, multiculturalism and terrorism, far-right parties have gained popularity, and in reaction, the barycentre of traditional "right" has moved further right.

Maybe that is not the root of that thing, at least in my country. Judicative, Legislative and Executive have always been quite blind on the right eye. They always had a tradition in the far right. ***
The chauvinist-fascist thinking always had a very outspoken propagator in far reaching media outlets /"the fourth column of democracy" ), BILD-Zeitung in Germany, which was always considered "middle of the society".
Also I think of the long term consequences of the Reagan/Thatcher/Kohl policy change that was in all these countries completed by the "left"(lol) Clinton/Blair/Schröder and overall created a mass of disenfranchised, estranged (Oh those moronic marxists!) people who felt utterly without influence on the
most important matters of their lives, etc.,etc.

This has been coming a long time.


***PS I don´t know how well known german history is, the mid and low level governance personnel (police, judges, city councils) was just put back in place from the 3. Reich after a little time, beforehand because there was noone else to do the job.

 

[ruffrecords]

Uncontrolled immigration caused the rise of the Brexit Party, but it is a "single issue" party, so when that issue is resolved, it will have lost its raison d'etre.

DaveP

I do wish you wouldn't keep saying that Dave, as if Brexit has a single cause. It is many things, from the decimation of fishing rights, prosecuting traders who still use lbs and ounces, declaring our sausages are not sausages, our cheese is not cheese, the miles of additional unnecessary red tape businesses have to deal with, butter mountains, wine lakes,the list is endless.

Cheers

Ian

 

[abbey road d enfer]

France has always had more extremes than the UK, from Action Francaise in 1900 through to the PCF in 1920.  There are very few actual communists in the UK, but here in France they are an actual party.  In the UK there was the National Front back in 67 but they were never big enough to contest an election. 

That's correct, and more or less the sitation France has enjoyed after WW2 for about 40 years. Recent events have favoured the return of extremisms. I believe immigration and terrorism may have planted the seed for a similar drift in the UK politics.

Uncontrolled immigration caused the rise of the Brexit Party, but it is a "single issue" party, so when that issue is resolved, it will have lost its raison d'etre.

That's the case for BoJo. He's riding the crest of a wave, when this wave is gone, he'll be gone too, because he's divisive; people want an unifier.

 

[living sounds]

The current far-right surge is a concequence of several compounding factors.

One of those factors is that western societies have quite recently changed due to gloabalisation and moved to the left on several social issues. There currently is a generational devide between older people, who at a much greater perecentage have a problem with the influx of different cultures, gay marriage, third wave feminism, restrictions on consumption to combat climate change etc. and the younger generations, who grew/grow up with these changes. 

The economic havoc caused by decades of neoliberalism / deregulation isn't helping.

The world has also become really complex and demanding, so a simple solution (like Brexit or not allowing immigrants to come into your country) looks attractive to many. The idea is to just make things as they were again.

 

[DaveP]

The current far-right surge is a concequence of several compounding factors.

One of those factors is that western societies have quite recently changed due to gloabalisation and moved to the left on several social issues. There currently is a generational devide between older people, who at a much greater perecentage have a problem with the influx of different cultures, gay marriage, third wave feminism, restrictions on consumption to combat climate change etc. and the younger generations, who grew/grow up with these changes.

The economic havoc caused by decades of neoliberalism / deregulation isn't helping.

The world has also become really complex and demanding, so a simple solution (like Brexit or not allowing immigrants to come into your country) looks attractive to many. The idea is to just make things as they were again.

There is a lot of truth in what you say +1
DaveP

 

[gyraf]

+1

 

[Script]

Uncontrolled immigration caused the rise of the Brexit Party, but it is a "single issue" party, so when that issue is resolved, it will have lost its raison d'etre.

That's pretty much what Dominic Cummings said.

Wikipedia:
At the Nudgestock event in 2017, Cummings said: "For me ... the worst-case scenario for Europe is a return to 1930s-style protectionism and extremism. And to me the EU project, the Eurozone project, are driving the growth of extremism. The single most important reason, really, for why I wanted to get out of the EU is I think that it will drain the poison of a lot of political debates ... UKIP and Nigel Farage would be finished. Once there’s democratic control of immigration policy, immigration will go back to being a second- or third-order issue.""

Now that guy is a career 'elitist', a brilliant analyst and he sure says a lot of things. But I disagree about centralisation in the EU being the main problem. So far the EU has been predominantly an economic union, with way too many social issues neglected and untouched for way too long (including resistance to reform at national levels). All made even more difficult in the wake of a huge economic crisis in 2008/09 leading to cuts in public spending (policy of austerity), the emergence of the 'disfranchised', a city-countryside divide etc etc etc (the names of sausages are really peripheral here and the British fishing industry will continue to suffer because they will most likely only catch fish, if any at all, suitable for export). Anyway, all those problems are not exclusively EU-centric or caused by Bruxelles -- and they will sure not all magically disappear in Britain with a Brexit.

Wikipedia:

In January 2016, Cummings said, "Extremists are on the rise in Europe and are being fuelled unfortunately by the Euro project and by the centralisation of power in Brussels [note: here is that argument again]. It is increasingly important that Britain offers an example of civilised, democratic, liberal self-government.

Here,I seriously wonder. Cos from this side of the world, the strategy of late looks like acting and behaving ever more like that very 'poison' that was intended to be drained in his 2017 quote. Strategy of counter-hijack?

What I want to say is that it's a very dangerous game, especially when you are looking at a fundamentally split society, a parliament in the process of self-discrediting itself and an electorate that does not tire of chiming in on the spiteful 'self-rigteous elitists' chorus directed at politicians, whom they had  given a massive task to solve. (As an aside only: even an undisputed divorce can still take up to three years and longer.)

Against such a backdrop -- in conjunction with a massive amount of unresolved purely social issues -- it creates a platform and can easily end up becoming a breeding ground for what's called 'dismantling' -- the ultimate goal of extremists (both far left and right) once they hold seats in parliament.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

That's pretty much what Dominic Cummings said.

My understanding of Cummings paradigm is: Europe is a problem for many people, because it tries to be an influential entity. He suggests self-destruction of Europe, then it won't be the subject of hatred or repraisal. 
Seems to me pretty close to Holocaust.
He may be brilliant, it does not mean he is right (as opposed to wrong).
In his speeches he pretends to be someone he isn't.  "The Tory party is run by people who basically don't care about people like me'"; and that "Tory MPs largely do not care about these poorer people."
Who could believe that? ???

 

[DaveP]

I do wish you wouldn't keep saying that Dave, as if Brexit has a single cause. It is many things, from the decimation of fishing rights, prosecuting traders who still use lbs and ounces, declaring our sausages are not sausages, our cheese is not cheese, the miles of additional unnecessary red tape businesses have to deal with, butter mountains, wine lakes,the list is endless.

I hear what you're saying Ian, but to my mind they are all Brexit related.

Non-related issues are foreign policy, climate policy, social policy, defence, etc.  They don't talk about these issues because they are focussed on Brexit.

DaveP

 

[ruffrecords]

I hear what you're saying Ian, but to my mind they are all Brexit related.

Non-related issues are foreign policy, climate policy, social policy, defence, etc.  They don't talk about these issues because they are focussed on Brexit.

DaveP

I agree they are all Brexit related. which is exactly the point.  It just seems that everyone points to immigration alone as if it is the main and only reason people wanted Brexit. It is not. And of course, I forgot to mention sovereignty!

Cheers

Ian

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I do wish you wouldn't keep saying that Dave, as if Brexit has a single cause. It is many things, from the decimation of fishing rights, prosecuting traders who still use lbs and ounces, declaring our sausages are not sausages, our cheese is not cheese, the miles of additional unnecessary red tape businesses have to deal with, butter mountains, wine lakes,the list is endless.

Do you actually believe it will be different after Brexit? If UK reorients its trade towards US and Asia, there'll be a multitude of standards to comply with. Unless UK limits its ambitions of international trade to Oz and NZ...

 

[ruffrecords]

Do you actually believe it will be different after Brexit? If UK reorients its trade towards US and Asia, there'll be a multitude of standards to comply with. Unless UK limits its ambitions of international trade to Oz and NZ...

Yes I do believe ir will be different. We already trade with the rest of the world and handle their standards plus there has be a move towards harmonisation of standards for decades. The most onerous large trading bloc is/will be the EU.

Edit: The stupid thing is Brexit was never about trade. When the UK joined we joined the Common Market NOT the EU. If had stayed a market and not morphed into ambitions for a federal Europe it would be fine.

Cheers

Ian

 

[DaveP]

+1
DaveP

 

[abbey road d enfer]

When the UK joined we joined the Common Market NOT the EU. If had stayed a market and not morphed into ambitions for a federal Europe it would be fine.

Ah! The dream of the merchants' Europe...
I don't think it "would be fine". A global market without social harmonization is what the world is living in now; it has created the very situation that has conducted to Brexit.

 

[ruffrecords]

Ah! The dream of the merchants' Europe...
I don't think it "would be fine". A global market without social harmonization is what the world is living in now; it has created the very situation that has conducted to Brexit.

I don't think it is "social harmonisation" that is the problem. It is federal ambition. It always has been in Europe.

Edit: The UK has been a melting pot for Europe's waifs, strays, persecuted and occasional conquerors for century's. We are used to it. It causes occasional problems but overall we are better for it.

Cheers

Ian

Cheers

Ian

 

[Script]

I'm with John Major who has expressed fears that BoJo might use Privy Council to bypass Brexit extension legislation. It might be a way to circumvent the Benn bil, yet abide by the law at the same timel.  Such a move, Major said, would be in "flagrant defiance" of Parliament and "utterly disrespectful" to the Supreme Court.

BoJo might think it's a sword to cut the Gordian Knot in parliament, but it is also the wedge that will split British society fully apart.

 

[ruffrecords]

I'm with John Major who has expressed fears that BoJo might use Privy Council to bypass Brexit extension legislation. It might be a way to circumvent the Benn bil, yet abide by the law at the same timel.  Such a move, Major said, would be in "flagrant defiance" of Parliament and "utterly disrespectful" to the Supreme Court.

This is the same John Major who was severely criticised for proroguing Parliament for three weeks when he was prime minister so as to delay a report into Conservative MPs taking bribes until after the 1997 election.

Yeah, I think he is a great role model - NOT.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Script]

This is the same John Major who [...]

And that's the very reason I take him to know exactly what he's talking about.