Capsule for C12 clone

[MagnetoSound]

Sorry, I think it’s double-sided in fact.

 

[Rob Flinn]

The description is

"For C12 Edge terminated large golden diaphragm microphone capsule 34mm dual side 4 wires ,CK-12 microphone ,CK-12 Mic Capules"

 

[kingkorg]

No, that capsule is sadly nowhere near good. The Ali price is nowhere near what it was sold for to us. Maybe they have improved, but who's ready to take the gamble at that price, and how do you check?

The construction is in line with one of CK12 iterations, but they have no idea how to tune it.

CK12 has a very specific way it forms different pickup patterns. Even if your capsule sounds decent in cardioid, it can do crazy stuff in other patterns. There are other anomalies that can happen along the way, you probably wouldn't be able to pick up from the get-go.

 

[Whoops]

It will be very useful because all true CK12 capsules in the market are highly expensive,
and some of them are even not available without being in a long waiting list.

The market needs a good, affordable and well built true CK12 capsule. I'm confident 3U Audio can make that

There is already a good CK12 made in china

405€ for a CK12 is not Affordable,
it's actually more expensive than Tim Campbell or Beesneez capsule.

This is from the Aliexpress link that was posted here for the Chinese unbranded CK12:






So my post still stands

"The market needs a good, affordable and well built true CK12 capsule."

 

[klem]

Clearly Guosheng doesn't want to make money. This is one of the most obvious market gaps for not just end-users but companies of small to medium size. So it's really bizarre to me to see 3U Guosheng give it such a relatively low priority to other projects over the past few years.
From what little understanding I have of business models, it sure seems person or company that can realize a more affordable and accessible version of a true CK12 stands to make a sizeable profit.
Seems like a win-win in my book. But obviously I'm not privy to all issues involved and IP theft I guess in manufacturing overseas, but that risk seems to be possible for any other capsule ever built... It's hard to imagine that places haven't already reverse engineered a TC12 or original AKG. I realize it's more complicated to get right than other capsules, but it can clearly be done... it's all so strange from my (again, limited) viewpoint. I do feel fairly confident in saying that I doubt a 3U CK12 will come out this year, his recent reply is similar to ones he gave back in 2023 as well.

 

[kingkorg]

Clearly Guosheng doesn't want to make money.

I don't think you realize for how long he's been in the game, and how many manufacturers he already supplies with his existing capsules. Supplying DIY with capsules is just a nice gesture from him. There's not much money to be made on CK12 as the process can't be automated, which is the reason it went out of the production. Guoesheng is not a teenager either.

 

[garp]

The construction is in line with one of CK12 iterations, but they have no idea how to tune it.

CK12 has a very specific way it forms different pickup patterns. Even if your capsule sounds decent in cardioid, it can do crazy stuff in other patterns. There are other anomalies that can happen along the way, you probably wouldn't be able to pick up from the get-go.

The most impressive thing i have seen in the british museum was a rice grain with a complete Lao Tseu poem writen on it, a chinese gem made a thousand years ago. Never underestimate these people PLEASE . Despite what Kingkorg says (I have actually four of these capsules) they are incredibly consistant and perfectly capable of omni and figure 8 patterns, and also quite nicely tuned to my ears. The off axis response is out of this world (just like a real brass CK12) and despite the fact i don't have a vintage one to compare side by side, i am quite confident that they have reached the initial goal. I am more than happy with the 414 the C12 and elam251 clones i have made with them. Should i mention that i only paid 60 euros to get them at home ? How ? Just a little tip : all the stuff you can find on aliexpress is available on alibaba but much cheaper and sometimes direct from factory. Just my 0,0002 cents

 

[Tim Campbell]

Unfortunately the price of a capsule reflects how much time is spent on each capsule. CK12's assembled quickly are all over the place when it comes to frequency response and output. The more time spent making all the necessary corrections the more repeatable and higher quality capsule you end up with and the more expensive it ends up being. The reason we are having this discussion is that many cheap capsules do not sound good enough.
I realize that for most DIYers 400-500 USD for a capsule is off putting or out of reach. Think about it though, spendig 1000 USD building a C12/251 clone you end up with a mic that that is in every way equal to a microphone costing 5000-10000 USD and a great experience to boot.

Using a good quality but less expensive capsule you still end up with a mic that is at least 90% as good.

 

[garp]

The more time spent making all the necessary corrections the more repeatable and higher quality capsule you end up with and the more expensive it ends up being. The reason we are having this discussion is that many cheap capsules do not sound good enough.

Well this is right in the western industrial world but not quite true in the actual chinese industry. "many cheap capsules do not sound good enough" i totally agree and it is also true that many of these "cheap" capsules are quite decent (if not very good!) . Ariennes's capsules are quite cheap compared to a "real" Neumann. Are they worse ? I doubt. I understand that western builders want to protect their business model but i am sad to announce that they long time ago loosed the war. The chinese industry is now in 2024, miles away from our poor western capabilities, if you are not aware of that fact you are not seeing the whole picture.

 

[Whoops]

I realize that for most DIYers 400-500 USD for a capsule is off putting or out of reach.

I’m don’t mind the price of 400€ for your capsule or other high quality capsule, Made with very attention to all details and with a tight quality control.
I understand the price for that kind of service

What I don’t get and think it’s crazy is the price of 400€ for an unbranded Chinese capsule, that you don’t know if it even has any quality control.
Also production costs and labour costs are much lower in China, so I also don’t get how can that capsule be sold for an higher price than yours or beesnees

 

[Whoops]

Should i mention that i only paid 60 euros to get them at home ? How ? Just a little tip : all the stuff you can find on aliexpress is available on alibaba but much cheaper and sometimes direct from factory. Just my 0,0002 cents

Can you please provide the link for the alibaba page on this product?

I searched a lot in Alibaba but can't find this capsule over there

 

[garp]

To quote Elvis Costello," A poor little schoolboy says we don't need no lessons."

To say the least this answer is quite condescending Mr Campbell and the only thing i can say is that is not at your credit. More than 10 years ago you made a wonderful job at retroengeneering this amazing calculated piece of gear. Now time has flow and despite your reputation (in this forum) many independant builders made their journey thru it and learned the hard way exactly as you did. Maybe there is a touch of magic (and snake oil) applied to your products (unfortunately unavailable except for the richest amongst us) , but i am confident that the chinese builders are far more humble than you are and therefore prone to improve their products more in the future. Of course what can be improved in such a perfect capsule as the Tim Campbell's ? (in my case big improvement was something available and affordable). I have spent thousands in capsules in the past (dale's M7, Beesneez Eiserman) and had problems with nearly all of them, your assesment about pricey capsules is quite misplaced IMHO.

 

[garp]

And hey ! Remove your site advertising unavailable capsules, it will save people to send you unanswered messages

 

[OneRoomStudio]

Clearly Guosheng doesn't want to make money. This is one of the most obvious market gaps for not just end-users but companies of small to medium size. So it's really bizarre to me to see 3U Guosheng give it such a relatively low priority to other projects over the past few years.
From what little understanding I have of business models, it sure seems person or company that can realize a more affordable and accessible version of a true CK12 stands to make a sizeable profit.
Seems like a win-win in my book. But obviously I'm not privy to all issues involved and IP theft I guess in manufacturing overseas, but that risk seems to be possible for any other capsule ever built... It's hard to imagine that places haven't already reverse engineered a TC12 or original AKG. I realize it's more complicated to get right than other capsules, but it can clearly be done... it's all so strange from my (again, limited) viewpoint. I do feel fairly confident in saying that I doubt a 3U CK12 will come out this year, his recent reply is similar to ones he gave back in 2023 as well.

I don’t think you realize the complexity of building a CK12 relative to a K67. There’s a reason why K67 backplates are ubiquitous. They’re fairly easy to machine. CK12 backplates are incredibly difficult. Last time I talked to Guosheng (early in the year), he had ordered custom machinery to make the CK12 backplates, but was still running into some consistency issues. I’m guessing this whole venture was a massive investment for him for relatively little payout. The DIY market is not that big. ****, the entire audio industry is not that big - the entire industry is less that $20B. The last two companies I worked for each made more than that.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Come on guys be nice (all of you)..... what is it about microphones that brings out the worst behavior from people?

JR

 

[Rob Flinn]

I wish someone could test and measure one of these Chinese capsules to give a serious appraisal of it. There's a lot of hearsay, speculation & opinion happening here which isn't really moving this thread forward.

 

[kingkorg]

Despite what Kingkorg says

I don't say anything, i have measured these, posted the findings and explained what the issues are. Yes they work in f8, and omni, and you might think you get those patterns, but in reality you get mess. You are still welcome to enjoy your capsules. You might not even have cardioid. In order to be accurate CK12 you need -20db at 1k 180°. Can you post the details on how you came to conclusion your capsules fulfill this task?

https://groupdiy.com/threads/new-ck12-capsule-measurements.84671/

 

[kingkorg]

I wish someone could test and measure one of these Chinese capsules to give a serious appraisal of it. There's a lot of hearsay, speculation & opinion happening here which isn't really moving this thread forward.

Thread 'New CK12 capsule measurements' https://groupdiy.com/threads/new-ck12-capsule-measurements.84671/

 

[pasarski]

Come on guys be nice (all of you)..... what is it about microphones that brings out the worst behavior from people?

JR

They are the device closest to the heart in the signal chain?

 

[kingkorg]

Come on guys be nice (all of you)..... what is it about microphones that brings out the worst behavior from people?

JR

This piece of gear is surrounded by more misconceptions than any other. As far as i know, no university teaches about tiniest transducer details. All hidden behind company walls, and NDAs. So no absolute authority on the stuff. All of which gets exploited by greedy snake oil sellers, and people who need to justify their investment.