covid politics

[crazydoc]

If your judgement is correct and Trump/Pence kill off a bunch of their own republican voters, your problems are solved.

I still can't predict the future.

JR

I'm glad you said it - it would be politically incorrect for me to say it.  :-X

 

[john12ax7]

It isn't...

JR

There are countless stories on the topic.

 

[crazydoc]

OK, I'll move this to the politics thread since having to do with gov'mints and "freedoms" makes it political, even though it's a driver behind the new covid surges that are coming..

    Still, the decision to not allow the few N95's available worldwide to be wasted was a sensible call ( that is, wasted by us, people who mostly don't know or did not know back then how to use those masks correctly anyway ). The healthcare infrastructures needed to be protected. Question of logistics. Sad but simple.

Of course. Conspiracy theories aside, people and institutions dealing with the pandemic initially tried to have an adequate supply of masks and PPE for the health personnel involved. The government telling people (especially Amurcans)  to do something that limits their "freedoms" has the opposite effect, so telling them that masks help but to use non-medical face coverings would have made an even worse run on medical masks ("the gov'mint cain't tell me what to do"). More effective just to tell them they don't need to wear masks.

Now the gov'mint is telling them that face coverings help, so they're refusing to wear them. Not that the gov'mint was right - it's just a no-win situation.  :

 

[scott2000]

 

[john12ax7]

The government telling people (especially Amurcans)  to do something that limits their "freedoms" has the opposite effect...

I think you have a distorted perspective of a section of America.  We should ALL be standing up for freedom and raising loud objections when the government infringes on it.

The issue in this case was a failure of leadership from government and public health officials.  The group of people you look down upon are also often the first to be willing to help their neighbors. All that was needed to happen was to educate the public on the benefits of mask wearing. I protect you,  you protect me.  Frame it as looking out for your fellow American and it would have worked.

Instead the leaders screwed it up and things got politicized.  Both sides choose party over the public. The constant barrage of  misinformation and nonsense from cnn msnbc and fox news doesn't help either.

 

[crazydoc]

We should ALL be standing up for freedom and raising loud objections when the government infringes on it.

"Freedoms" is in quotes because I'm talking about the "freedom" to inflict damage on others. We all drive on the right side of the road (USA) to avoid hurting ourselves and others. Wearing a mask and physical distancing during a pandemic, to the best of our current knowledge, will do the same. Those who don't are either ignorant (failure of leadership) or uncaring.

The issue in this case was a failure of leadership from government and public health officials.  The group of people you look down upon are also often the first to be willing to help their neighbors. All that was needed to happen was to educate the public on the benefits of mask wearing. I protect you,  you protect me.

Agreed. But the people I look down upon are sycophants of the of the "leader" who should have lead, and these followers apparently don't have the wherewithal or the interest to figure it out for themselves. Most public health people did the best they could with limited information, and under political pressure from the "leader".

 

[john12ax7]

Those who don't are either ignorant (failure of leadership) or uncaring.

I agree.  But think we differ in the breakdown of each. meaning I think a lot could be solved through leadership and education. Unfortunately there is not a competent leader on the horizon,  at least not among the 2 dominant choices.

The freedom part, and rights in general,  is often interesting,  as  both sides tend to selectively apply them based on the narrative.

 

[CJ]

oops!

"GOP Sheriff Who Refused To Enforce Coronavirus Lockdown Tests Positive At White House
Arizona Sheriff Mark Lamb said he likely contracted COVID-19 at a campaign event. He tested positive ahead of meeting with Donald Trump."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gop-sheriff-coronavirus-white-house_n_5eeb5391c5b609f5b6d90af8?fbclid=IwAR2Xxs1BRwpy-Hi_45EG1a-GCgLVBjGZJGgcUrIueE74ncJafkaMCiz3iMo

 

[john12ax7]

Apparently the key to beating the virus is to do less testing so you have less cases.

"When you do testing to that extent you're going to find more people. You're going to find more cases, so I said to my people, 'Slow the testing down please."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-21/donald-trump-says-ordered-slowdown-coronavirus-testing/12377556

They are now trying to claim it was a joke.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Apparently the key to beating the virus is to do less testing so you have less cases.

"When you do testing to that extent you're going to find more people. You're going to find more cases, so I said to my people, 'Slow the testing down please."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-21/donald-trump-says-ordered-slowdown-coronavirus-testing/12377556

They are now trying to claim it was a joke.

How could it be anything but..?  I FF through most of his speech but he made numerous satirical comments, along with his typical blather. He uses media as a punching bag as much or more than attacking democrats.

He was highlighting how the increased number of cases because of increased testing is reported by hyperbolic news as a new excuses to slow down reopening the economy. The US lagged in testing early on, but has caught up. Reopening the economy is likely to precipitate more cases. This is expected and tolerable as long as hospital resources do not get exceeded.

We'll know soon enough if this caused a new spike in cases among President Trump's fans. I read an early report that the Floyd protests did not cause a Covid spike in those cities.

JR

PS: I wouldn't attend one of these rallies even before COVID. I've been in the same room with the US president before, decades ago (albeit a very large room, but smaller than a stadium.)

 

[crazydoc]

How could it be anything but..?

This guy is the farthest thing from the leader we need to get us through this. Whether it's a serious statement or a joke, this and multiple other screwups, lies, ignorant statements and "jokes" have shown that as a human being and as a president he doesn't have a clue how to run a country (except into the ground).

He was highlighting how the increased number of cases because of increased testing is reported by hyperbolic news as a new excuses to slow down reopening the economy. The US lagged in testing early on, but has caught up. Reopening the economy is likely to precipitate more cases. This is expected and tolerable as long as hospital resources do not get exceeded.

We'll know soon enough if this caused a new spike in cases among President Trump's fans. I read an early report that the Floyd protests did not cause a Covid spike in those cities.

It looks like he, many governors, and significant portions of the population don't have a clue that this disease is running rampant again, and what we see now is a reflection of what was happening several weeks ago. They think because we're "opening up" that it's over, and mitigation measures are no longer needed. The purpose of restarting things slowly was to avoid overwhelming the medical system again, but we see that starting to happen now in several states. What's actually happening now (the infection rate) is the shit that's going to hit the fan in the next few weeks. Woe is us.

 

[JohnRoberts]

This guy is the farthest thing from the leader we need to get us through this. Whether it's a serious statement or a joke, this and multiple other screwups, lies, ignorant statements and "jokes" have shown that as a human being and as a president he doesn't have a clue how to run a country (except into the ground).

That's why we have elections... you can register your opinion in mere months.

It looks like he, many governors, and significant portions of the population don't have a clue that this disease is running rampant again, and what we see now is a reflection of what was happening several weeks ago.

I am not a medical expert like you, but reportedly a lot of the new cases are increasingly from young adults, who enjoy much lower risk/death rates. These same youts were probably less rigorous about social distancing and PPE in the recent past.

They think because we're "opening up" that it's over, and mitigation measures are no longer needed.

mind reading again?

The purpose of restarting things slowly was to avoid overwhelming the medical system again, but we see that starting to happen now in several states. What's actually happening now (the infection rate) is the sh*t that's going to hit the fan in the next few weeks. Woe is us.

Your speculation is registered... I am not smart enough to predict the future, but really hope we learned something over the last several months. We have certainly learned a lot of mistakes to not repeat, about how to treat this and operate health care services. I expect health professions to be paying close attention to all the numbers, not just the media headlines used to scare us.

Older potentially more vulnerable people need to remain especially diligent.  I wore my mask and gloves to the Post office this morning.

JR

 

[cyrano]

The average COVID patient who spent less than a week in ICU, costs over a million in the US.  Independent from who's footing the bill, that's roughly eight times what the rest of the civilised world spends.

Just something to ponder while you work out which one is the lesser evil this time.

 

[john12ax7]

How could it be anything but..?

So no chance it has anything to do with an unscrupulous businessman looking to manipulate the numbers to make the balance sheet look better than it actually is?

 

[crazydoc]

That's why we have elections... you can register your opinion in mere months.

I shall. But I learned about US elections in 1968 when I could have voted for the first time. There is only a binary choice, both selected by the autocracy/kleptocracy. So I didn't vote at all until 2000, when I decided I should at least vote for what I considered the lesser of two evils.

I am not a medical expert like you, but reportedly a lot of the new cases are increasingly from young adults, who enjoy much lower risk/death rates. These same youts were probably less rigorous about social distancing and PPE in the recent past.

I'm not an expert, but I certainly welcome their contribution to the herd immunity. Of course, they'd better stay away from Mom, Dad, Grandma, Grandpa, and any other old farts they're in contact with.

mind reading again?

Not mind reading - just observation and talking to a few dolts who live in my county. (73% for Trump in 2016.)

Your speculation is registered... I am not smart enough to predict the future, but really hope we learned something over the last several months. We have certainly learned a lot of mistakes to not repeat, about how to treat this and operate health care services. I expect health professions to be paying close attention to all the numbers, not just the media headlines used to scare us.

JR

I too hope we can keep it under contol.  A lot has been learned about how to treat the most severe cases, so maybe the mortality will be less in the future, but there is still the potential for overwhelmed hospitals by sheer numbers.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I shall. But I learned about US elections in 1968 when I could have voted for the first time. There is only a binary choice, both selected by the autocracy/kleptocracy.

I didn't start voting until the 70s. It's kind of a participatory democracy thing... Our founders were a lot smarter than I will ever be.

So I didn't vote at all until 2000, when I decided I should at least vote for what I considered the lesser of two evils.

yes votes can actually count (old people understand that)... I don't mind young people who don't vote, makes mine worth more. Bernie bros are excited (again), but unclear that they will show up for Joe Biden.

I'm not an expert, but I certainly welcome their contribution to the herd immunity.

we need to keep leaning against r0, several moving parts.

Of course, they'd better stay away from Mom, Dad, Grandma, Grandpa, and any other old farts they're in contact with.

that was one of the obvious misses, some countries took a lot better care of their at risk aged populations.

Not mind reading - just observation and talking to a few dolts who live in my county. (73% for Trump in 2016.)

sorry... (not).  ;D

I too hope we can keep it under contol.  A lot has been learned about how to treat the most severe cases, so maybe the mortality will be less in the future, but there is still the potential for overwhelmed hospitals by sheer numbers.

I have heard horror stories about the first wave, but largely mismanagement. Hopefully we are smarter now (at least a little).

JR

 

[john12ax7]

There is only a binary choice, both selected by the autocracy/kleptocracy.

This is a large part of the problem that many don't, or  are unwilling, to recognize,  Tweedism run amok and the illusion of choice.

‘‘I don’t care who does the electing as long as I get to do the nominating." -Tweed

 

[crazydoc]

From the pure covid thread:

So my point is, all of this is a function of masks and distancing. As soon as it got nice out and places relaxed the rules, you get increases. Now that they're seeing a spike in cases I suspect people will start being a little more diligent and, in two weeks, you'll see the numbers drop.

Not so fast. You might see numbers drop a few weeks after people become a lot more diligent, which will still need things to get a lot more scary like they did in NY, NJ and MA. Maybe it's starting this week in the surging states. Apparently the political leaders of many states (and the country) don't understand the delay between asymptomatic infection, while it is spreading logarithmically during this time, and then shows up later as symptomatic disease. I guess they've got a hard row to hoe, between following the science of their medical advisors, and worrying about their future electability.

I'll move this response to the political thread.

 

[JohnRoberts]

This is a large part of the problem that many don't, or  are unwilling, to recognize,  Tweedism run amok and the illusion of choice.

‘‘I don’t care who does the electing as long as I get to do the nominating." -Tweed

I am open to hear better solutions.

It is a typical strategy of autocracies to hold elections for show with hand government candidates.

One alternative to the strong two parties system is coalition governments with a changing mix of influence.

I feel pretty good about how well our founders crafted our system of governance, but multiple folks are testing it's limits pretty severely these days.

The woke warriors are running short of racist statues to tear down so are now targeting religious symbols. A little reminiscent of the Taliban/ISIS radicals destroying religious cultural sites.

JR

 

[crazydoc]

Well, it looks like the pandemic is out of control (just my uninformed opinion.) The stupidity and lack of self control of people (all the way to the top), and politicizing the mask/mitigation measures seem to be the main factors. Hop on for the ride, the sh!tstorm special is leaving the station.