covid politics

[hodad]

PROVEN FACT RIGHT OUT OF THE HORSE'S MOUTH ON TAPE.

I will say--and this is not much of a defense--that when you read or listen to Trump's "democrat hoax" comment, it's hard to be sure what he's referring to as a hoax.  Is it the virus, or the Democrats' response to the virus (which was far more spot on than Don't Panic Donald's response), or something else entirely?  That's what happens when you have a president who struggles to speak in complete sentences.  He's a horrible communicator, which allows his defenders a great deal of wiggle room when interpreting his ramblings. 

Of course, in light of the Woodward tapes, the classic Republican interpretation looks pretty weak.  It would appear(if you follow the Republican line) that Trump was attempting to delegitimize  Democrats' very real concerns about COVID in order to support his own lies.  That's not much better than declaring the virus itself a hoax. 

 

[crazydoc]

Scientists and physicians reacted with words such as “aghast,” “despicable” and “outrageous” over the weekend as news spread that White House appointees interfered with a basic national public health report when it conflicted with President Donald Trump's coronavirus messaging.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/scientists-outraged-by-white-house-appointees-meddling-with-coronavirus-information-outright-egregious/ar-BB18ZM1F?ocid=bingcovid

MMWR sick, victim of pandemic of stupidity in American population.

 

[hodad]

It's popular on the right to posit that scientists are "conspiring" to keep a vaccine from coming out by November, or to attack people who are wary of receiving a vaccine that is rushed for a certain person's political motivations.  Here's an informed look at the process, discussed in layman's terms. 
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/life/article/covid-expert-peter-hotez-anti-science-campaign-15558310.php

Of course, if Trump wanted to look like some sort of COVID hero, he could have simply done a competent job of managing the pandemic response in the first place.  He could have acted as a leader rather than pushing responsibility off on others.  He could NOT be holding large indoor rallies, as he just did in Nevada. 

But you know how Republicans are--they want an easy solution for everything--a shot, a pill, whatever.  They don't believe in hard work and sacrifice anymore.  SAD.

 

[scott2000]

they want an easy solution

This seemed pretty easy.....

Changes in reporting requirements for pandemic (H1N1) 2009 virus infection

"The increasing number of cases in many countries with sustained community transmission is making it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for countries to try and confirm them through laboratory testing. Moreover, the counting of individual cases is now no longer essential in such countries for monitoring either the level or nature of the risk posed by the pandemic virus or to guide implementation of the most appropriate response measures."

Monitoring still needed

"This pandemic has been characterized, to date, by the mildness of symptoms in the overwhelming majority of patients, who usually recover, even without medical treatment, within a week of the onset of symptoms. However, there is still an ongoing need in all countries to closely monitor unusual events, such as clusters of cases of severe or fatal pandemic (H1N1) 2009 virus infection, clusters of respiratory illness requiring hospitalization, or unexplained or unusual clinical patterns associated with serious or fatal cases.

Other potential signals of change in the currently prevailing pattern include unexpected, unusual or notable changes in patterns of transmission. Signals to be vigilant for include spikes in rates of absenteeism from schools or workplaces, or a more severe disease pattern, as suggested by, for example, a surge in emergency department visits. "

https://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/h1n1_surveillance_20090710/en/

 

[hodad]

This seemed pretty easy.....

Slap a couple of quotes up, and a short, non-explanatory comment--is this supposed to mean something to me?  I can read what the WHO said about an influenza in 2009.  I'm not sure how that's relevant right now.  Would you care to explain?

 

[iturnknobs]

"@THEINTENSITY: The worst part is the apathy the administration has for informing the public of timely info about Ebola @realDonaldTrump"
1:55 AM · Oct 1, 2014

HA! You cannot make this stuff up. He should impeach himself. His puppets still follow.

 

[scott2000]

Slap a couple of quotes up, and a short, non-explanatory comment--is this supposed to mean something to me?  I can read what the WHO said about an influenza in 2009.  I'm not sure how that's relevant right now.  Would you care to explain?

I just thought it seemed simpler to ignore actual testing and focusing on the more seriously ill this way .. in contrast to what is happening today.

Sure  some studies attempted to figure how things could have looked in 2009  with similar actions taken (more testing...attributing some suspect deaths to it..etc.)..as they do today but , I suppose it is irrelevant....

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1001558

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(12)70121-4/fulltext

Sorry if it wasn't related to the vaccine stuff but, to be fair on that, the coronaviruses have been studied for quite some time , over a decade?.....although seems limited by interest and funding ...but, I don't think it's super unrealistic to think that  something good can come out in similar speedy fashion and overall success as the H1N1 quick vaccine roll out....although it's scarier because of the limited focus on the Cov stuff in comparison to flu stuff...

... It is a bit weird that the length of time and the time of year these different vaccine attempts seem to mirror each other.... The distrust and all the other stuff seems to have some parallels too....

 

[hodad]

I just thought it seemed simpler to ignore actual testing and focusing on the more seriously ill this way .. in contrast to what is happening today.

Some contrasts:  COVID can have long term issues even in mild cases (there was a study that indicated that a third of  previously infected Big ten students who were tested had myocarditis).  The estimated death toll of the 2009 flu was in the 300K range world wide, whereas the US total for COVID is likely to hit that number before year's end.  Also, influenzas tend to fade away in the summer; not so with COVID(as we have discovered.) 

I think it's very much an apples-to-oranges comparison.  I'm also not at all convinced (since I poked holes in your argument with minimal effort) that you or whoever you sourced this theory from has a better idea of how to approach this pandemic than, you know, actual epidemiologists.

 

[scott2000]

Some contrasts:  COVID can have long term issues even in mild cases

They discovered Cov2 when? .. I'm sure it "can" have long term issues but what does that even mean in the context of time we're talking...

(there was a study that indicated that a third of  previously infected Big ten students who were tested had myocarditis). 

Is this uncommon ?  I think viruses in general, especially some flu viruses can affect people this way....

The estimated death toll of the 2009 flu was in the 300K range world wide, ) 

Sure...
I suppose I'm interested in deaths of other comorbidities that could have been linked to the flu ......It's no secret there hasn't been any massive testing of this. Especially in the most vulnerable populations who just so happen to be the ones dying in large numbers.....

I think it's very much an apples-to-oranges comparison.  I'm also not at all convinced (since I poked holes in your argument with minimal effort) that you or whoever you sourced this theory from has a better idea of how to approach this pandemic than, you know, actual epidemiologists.

Wasn't trying to convince you or anyone.. Just sharing info...

 

[Matador]

Apparently Trump, in his recent Nevada campaign rally, is against spouting nonsense about how the only reason case counts are high is because of expanded testing, which isn't how math works in the slightest.

I wonder if he thinks that the only way for a wallet to have money in it is to open it up and count it?

How can we then explain this chart?

Despite testing being steady (pink), how did case counts spike and then go down?  I wonder if the lockdown in early August had something to do with the inflection point on the graph?  Maybe windmills stopped causing cancer and are now curing COVID?

 

[hodad]

Wasn't trying to convince you or anyone.. Just sharing info...

OK.  I can share all sorts of info too.  Explaining how you consider it fits the discussion at hand is often quite helpful though.

 

[scott2000]

OK.  I can share all sorts of info too. 

Could you share that Big Ten study? Confusing trying to find info on it.....

Explaining how you consider it fits the discussion at hand is often quite helpful though.

Covid politics? Handling pandemics? Taking the easy way by perhaps not being thorough in the way of finding out if viruses could possibly be linked to more deaths in some way or another...? I'm not clear on if you're asking me to explain further...

 

[scott2000]

Despite testing being steady (pink), how did case counts spike and then go down?  I wonder if the lockdown in early August had something to do with the inflection point

Interesting that flu season peak  in Australia is normally June to August...not sure what to make of the connection apart from just coincidence..... But they have been testing for flu from what I understand and  it seems like and the lockdowns have made this year's flu season there  way less...A good thing

I'm not sure about the lockdown in August though... I thought it was earlier...

 

[hodad]

Could you share that Big Ten study? Confusing trying to find info on it.....

Seems to have been largely walked back--I missed this:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/09/03/big-ten-coronavirus-myocarditis/

On the H1n1 matter:  Lurie said anyone who makes the H1N1 comparison to the coronavirus doesn’t understand very much about COVID-19. “It’s kind of like comparing oranges and basketballs,” she said. “They’re both orange, but that’s about as far as you get.”
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/07/trump-misleads-on-h1n1-swine-flu-testing/

 

[scott2000]

On the H1n1 matter:  Lurie said anyone who makes the H1N1 comparison to the coronavirus doesn’t understand very much about COVID-19. “It’s kind of like comparing oranges and basketballs,” she said. “They’re both orange, but that’s about as far as you get.”

I understand the differences but, if you don't test, you'll never know if it's worse than it may seem or not.... If someone is sick already with multiple comorbidities,  and especially isn't showing any symptoms of flu as seems to be a possibility with older people, they possibly won't be tested..... they haven't been in any massive way anyhow......
My father in law and my great grandmother both died in  2 flu seasons  within same year. edit......Nov and Feb 2015 ...Time flies. I always thought it was 2018 flu season...
Grammy was a healthy 98 and my father in law who  had struggled with copd was 78... neither were tested for flu. both died of pneumonia.....maybe they didn't have it...will never know..

Here's 2015 season stuff... I'm not even sure how the weeks work out.... I haven't looked yet....


https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season-2015-2016.htm#what-viruses

"CDC does not count how many people die from flu each year. Unlike flu deaths in children, flu deaths in adults are not nationally reportable."

"What flu viruses circulated during the 2015-2016 season?

Overall, influenza A(H1N1)pdm09 viruses predominated during the 2015-2016 season"
"How effective was the 2015-2016 flu vaccine?
The overall VE against A(H1N1)pdm09 was 41%"

Summary of the 2014-2015 Influenza Season

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pastseasons/1415season.htm

"Why is it difficult to know how many people die from flu?

There are several factors that make it difficult to determine accurate numbers of flu-associated deaths. Some of the challenges in counting influenza-associated deaths include the following: the sheer volume of deaths to be counted; the fact that not everyone that dies with an influenza-like illness is tested for influenza; and the fact that influenza-associated deaths are often a result of complications secondary to influenza and underlying medical problems, and this may be difficult to sort out"

 

[hodad]

Trump defends his largely maskless indoor rally  in Nevada:  "I'm on a stage and it’s very far away," he told the Las Vegas Review-Journal. "And so I’m not at all concerned."

Just so we know he's got his priorities straight. 

 

[crazydoc]

Some of today's memorable quotes:

“The previous administration would have taken perhaps years to have a vaccine, because of the FDA and all the approvals,” Trump said on Tuesday. “We’re within weeks of getting it. You know, could be three weeks, four weeks.”

Yeah, the FDA and those pesky approvals, but you've got your guy in there who can cut all that red tape wrapped around safety and efficacy issues.

“It would go away without the vaccine,” he told the host, George Stephanopoulos. “You’ll develop like a herd mentality, it’s going to be herd developed, and that’s going to happen. That will all happen.”

: : :    Perfect way to describe his followers.

As they say, you can't make this stuff up.

 

[iturnknobs]

PS: I just ordered a T-Shirt that says "Front toward enemy". I doubt many here will understand the humor.  8)

“Whether your enemy is an insurgent with an AK, a robbery suspect on the run, a raging structure fire or simply your next workout; if you stand up for what you believe, you are someone who keeps their Front Toward Enemy. Just like the iconic warning emblazoned upon the Claymore mine, no enemy wants to be on the receiving end of those words… FRONT TOWARD ENEMY.”

I guess the fear propaganda works.  Borderline pushing violence. I’d report it to the moderators, but...

I had to search Q-anon and that sounds insane. Who follows that crap (rhetorical, apparently all the people that mention it)

Because you refuse to see, here’s your leader. Stand tall in your pool of obstinance.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-pushed-qanon-conspiracy-retweeting-hashtag-pedobiden-2020-9

 

[iturnknobs]

In the recent "town hall" Trump claimed Biden was wrong for NOT declaring a national mask mandate. HE IS THE PRESIDENT. Fool.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I read an interesting story (in WSJ) about some texas millionaire who was worried about his son studying in the UK so flew him home and quarantined him in a spare house he owned. In a classic no good deed goes unpunished the kid had a case of symptomless covid and infected his old father with it.

The father got pretty sick but recovered and started a mission to promote testing symptomless people to manage community spread. He is spending a bunch of his wealth on providing tests for schools and more.

Sorry not political...but not strictly science.

JR