covid politics

[iturnknobs]

For a case of pure COVID "politics", house republicans frustrated by democrats refusing to pursue an investigation into the cause of COVID are holding their own (cough) hearing. This "informal" hearing held in the visitors center lacks subpoena power to call witnesses like Dr Fauci, because it isn't a formal investigatory hearing. It is not immediately clear to me why the democrats are blocking this investigation.

After all the claims about following the science it seems strange how the evidence surrounding the COVID outbreak has not really changed since a year ago but the public sentiment has flipped 180' (why?). Coincidentally social media fact checkers have stopped blocking and discrediting old claims pointing at the Wuhan lab as a possible source.

One lesson here is how powerful these social media gatekeepers are at controlling the flow of information to push their agenda, and public sentiment.

I'll let you make up your own speculation about why one side is trying to suppress information about this. The other side no doubt expects this to be embarrassing.

Politics aside the world really needs to understand how this pandemic happened so we can prevent another from happening. I don't have much faith in WHO or UN, that both seem to be carrying water for China.

JR

Where it came from is irrelevant for the most part. How it has been handled is entirely another. Give up on the conspiracy theories and start working on those within your party who are willingly spreading it...now there's a REAL problem. Way to keep the tribalism alive.

 

[iturnknobs]

Politics aside the world really needs to understand how this pandemic happened so we can prevent another from happening. I don't have much faith in WHO or UN, that both seem to be carrying water for China.

JR

Number one water carrier for China...

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/15/trump-china-coronavirus-188736

 

[iturnknobs]

never happened, be patriotic an move on

I am such an AWESOME editor and engineer, that I fabricated all the Trump/Woodward recordings and provided them to the news outlets...NOW THERE'S SOMETHING THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

 

[iturnknobs]

This is the first time in my life I have ever seen karma work. Take the politics out of this situation. Encourage all the people you know to get vaccinated.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article252612223.html

 

[JohnRoberts]

This is the first time in my life I have ever seen karma work. Take the politics out of this situation. Encourage all the people you know to get vaccinated.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article252612223.html

I have in fact seen karma work multiple times in my lifetime but I may be older than you.
===
IMO it is unseemly to take pleasure in anybody's death.

I recall the current administration casting shade on the covid vaccine, even while jumping to the front of the line to get vaccinated themselves even before they were inaugurated. Typical political hypocrisy. They missed their own vaccination targets, perhaps because of all the mixed messaging. If vaccines work, why wear masks (hypothetical, I am not trying to trigger more trolling).

JR

 

[crazydoc]

It is unfortunate that many who profess to be great patriots, who salute the flag, stand at meetings with their hands over their hearts pledging allegiance to that flag they believe their god favors, who thank veterans "for your service," are hypocritical, unpatriotic, apparently cowardly people looking out only for themselves, who are afraid or unwilling to take an infinitesimally small risk in vaccination or wearing masks, to help protect their fellow citizens, especially children, in a war against a pandemic that has caused great suffering and killed more of them than all the 20th century wars combined.

 

[hodad]

I recall the current administration casting shade on the covid vaccine, even while jumping to the front of the line to get vaccinated themselves even before they were inaugurated. Typical political hypocrisy. They missed their own vaccination targets, perhaps because of all the mixed messaging. If vaccines work, why wear masks (hypothetical, I am not trying to trigger more trolling).

JR

This is remarkably disingenuous. "Casting shade" on the vaccine prior to rollout--being concerned about corners cut in the rush to approval, etc.--is far different from indulging in anti-vax fearmongering after jumping the same line (as certain GOP politicians are still doing.)

Was there a political element to the umbrage cast by Dem politicians? Almost certainly, but the concerns about the rush to approval did need to be addressed. But unlike many in the GOP, those Dems looked at the mounting evidence and data and cast their votes aside. The GOP is still indulging in baseless fearmongering, and people are dying as a result.

 

[JohnRoberts]

It is unfortunate that many who profess to be great patriots, who salute the flag, stand at meetings with their hands over their hearts pledging allegiance to that flag they believe their god favors, who thank veterans "for your service," are hypocritical, unpatriotic, apparently cowardly people looking out only for themselves, who are afraid or unwilling to take an infinitesimally small risk in vaccination or wearing masks, to help protect their fellow citizens, especially children, in a war against a pandemic that has caused great suffering and killed more of them than all the 20th century wars combined.

I somehow doubt that is the personal calculus going on... More likely ignorant people convinced by even more ignorant people to avoid the vaccine (I have one otherwise smart friend who is a virulent anti-vaxer), but I stopped communicating with him when he got too insulting (like some other people).

I was disappointed to see MS on the list of low vac'd states, but I recall the difficulty I had, being required to drive to the next county to get my jabs. I can imagine neighbors who didn't have my resources, and sensibility. I wonder why the local clinic is not jabbing people but perhaps the fact that the vaccines are still experimental creates a liability issue? Why is the FDA dragging their feet on that? I notice that in the months since then my regular Walmart is now giving jabs, while I don't see any evidence of jabs happening during my weekly shopping visits other than empty chairs for the 15 minute post jab wait.
===
When I tried to look up 20th century war deaths a wiki page gives a range of 16M to 40M deaths for just WWI. That larger number included the spanish flu since soldiers did help spread it around the world. But WWI without the spanish flu is 4x the covid death toll so far (4M per Johns Hopkins). WWII was another 56M to 85M deaths worldwide.

Of course the pandemic is still going and according to mainstream media, worse than ever (be very afraid). Many poor countries with lower vaccination rates will fare much worse than us.


JR

PS; I own some Pfizer stock and they reportedly are working on a Covid booster that targets the delta variant but the future has not happened yet so who knows if it will pay off.

 

[Script]

I somehow doubt that is the personal calculus going on... More likely ignorant people convinced by even more ignorant people

+1
___
Wikipedia cites WWII deaths for the US as follows:

Military deaths from all causes	Civilian deaths due to military activity and crimes against humanity

407,300

12,100

Japanese newspaper today gives 600,000+ Covid deaths for the US. And now comes the 'but' : Some say there are also people in the US who only died with Covid.

[satire start]
Well, the above might be true in the same way as soldiers in general do not die in wars but during wars.
[/satire end] (not because of action but in action).

Anyway, I hope we could all agree that it's too many deaths worldwide already.
___
Still too little is known about both so-called Long-Covid and adversary long-term effects of these new vaccines -- as is naturally the case with all new things. But the math isn't too difficult.
___
BTW, due to the delta strain, Israel has re-introduced mask-wearing for public indoor areas. Israel is a very 'young' country with many who simply cannot be inoculated as of now.

 

[JohnRoberts]

+1
___
Wikipedia cites WWII deaths for the US as follows:

Military deaths from all causes	Civilian deaths due to military activity and crimes against humanity

407,300

12,100

Yup but the comparison was not clearly defined. If you want to make it strictly about American military deaths we have only lost that many to wars "total" since we have been a country (666,441+). These same wars claimed many deaths from other country's soldiers too. War sucks... as I recall I was not pleased to be drafted during Viet nam. Famous Gen Patton quote "No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.”

Japanese newspaper today gives 600,000+ Covid deaths for the US. And now comes the 'but' : Some say there are also people in the US who only died with Covid.

[satire start]
Well, the above might be true in the same way as soldiers in general do not die in wars but during wars.
[/satire end] (not because of action but in action).

Anyway, I hope we could all agree that it's too many deaths worldwide already.
_

sadly many more people will die from covid (world wide) before this is over.

__
Still too little is known about both so-called Long-Covid and adversary long-term effects of these new vaccines -- as is naturally the case with all new things. But the math isn't too difficult.
_

math is objective and finite if all the terms being crunched are clearly defined.

__
BTW, due to the delta strain, Israel has re-introduced mask-wearing for public indoor areas. Israel is a very 'young' country with many who simply cannot be inoculated as of now.

yes that is in the news, but with different explanations (like be very afraid). Also in the news is that Japan declared a state of emergency and will not allow fans into olympic events in Tokyo.

JR

 

[crazydoc]

I somehow doubt that is the personal calculus going on... More likely ignorant people convinced by even more ignorant people to avoid the vaccine

Apparently so ignorant they know what they know, and know that there's nothing they don't know. They are never wrong

When I tried to look up 20th century war deaths a wiki page gives a range of 16M to 40M deaths for just WWI.

I was talking about the flag waving Americans, who have been so lucky not to have a war fought in their neighborhoods since the Civil War. (Although now it seems that more and more neighborhoods are becoming war zones.)

IMO it is unseemly to take pleasure in anybody's death.

No one said anything about schadenfreude - it's just the reality of the situation.

 

[Script]

yes that is in the news, but with different explanations

Yeah, the one I read is that delta started clustering in Israel in schools and continued preading from there.

Japan:
yes, fifth wave and fourth emergency in Tokyo starting on 12th. No audience at sports events, which under local conditions would be borderline irresponsible (at least that's what the majority of people here think, as well as most medical experts here). Also the government feels somewhat motivated since last Sunday to listen more to public opinion, a change in mindset triggered by their less than stellar result in last weekend's local Tokyo elections. -- In total, no real news here ; )

 

[JohnRoberts]

Apparently so ignorant they know what they know, and know that there's nothing they don't know. They are never wrong

I am not comfortable arguing about what other people think, it can be difficult to even know what we think with certainty.

I was talking about the flag waving Americans, who have been so lucky not to have a war fought in their neighborhoods since the Civil War.

I am a flag waving American. The army sent me to Germany in 1970, but there was no fighting there at the time either.

Living in the deep south sometimes you could think the civil war is still going on. I am considered a yankee to at least one of my red neck neighbors, despite living here for over three decades. Speaking of the civil war, that was over 200k combat related deaths, with almost twice that number in war related deaths, for a total almost equal to the current COVID toll.

(Although now it seems that more and more neighborhoods are becoming war zones.)

Yet some politicians are still calling for defunding the police despite the apparent consequence of increasing violent crime. I was only "friends" (cough) with one police officer on social media (actually married to a woman I worked with years ago) but he just retired, as so many have. (My local clinic doctor voted with her feet and retired over ACA changes several years ago). The American flag I wave has a blue stripe so I support the police too). I am not sure we can put Humpty back together after so many experienced officers retire. The bad apples are not the ones retiring.

No one said anything about schadenfreude - it's just the reality of the situation.

I didn't understand your Karma comment but didn't care enough to ask, still don't.

JR

 

[crazydoc]

I didn't understand your Karma comment but didn't care enough to ask, still don't.

In my simple, non-spiritual thinking, it means that actions have consequences, called "unintended," if we don't have, or don't believe, the information needed to predict them.

 

[JohnRoberts]

That is not my understanding of Karma... and no not the hindu/buddist reincarnation concept.

I see Karma as more like a cosmic bank account where good deeds create positive credits and bad deeds result in negative debits subtracted from an individual's Karma account (kind of like the "golden rule" but with double entry bookkeeping). The underlying message of this cosmic justice viewpoint is to not be discouraged when you see bad people appear to get away with bad behavior in the short term because long term their Karma account will eventually get settled, i.e. they will pay later (this is not an objective scientific theory).

We can pluck examples out of the headlines that agree and/or disagree with strict Karma, but arguably their accounts are still unsettled.
===
Back several decades ago I had business dealings with a true scumbag businessman who tried to cheat me. I won't bore you with the details, but I successfully hired a lawyer to sue him and was made whole.... BUT, he took advantage of way too many other people who did not make out as well as I did. The Karma kicked in when years later he was caught trying to cheat his business partners and ended up serving time in prison.

The concept of Karma frees us from having to personally go after every perceived bad actor, no doubt left over from our hunter-gatherer days when the group would collectively punish bad actors swiftly for the "good" of the small community.

JR

 

[crazydoc]

I probably shouldn't use the word karma, since I guess for most people it means something (like Santa Clause )is keeping track of the "good" and the "bad" that someone does. For me it's a statistical concept - if you do beneficial things, it skews the curve toward people wanting to respond likewise, and the same for the contrary behavior. So of course shitty things can happen to good people, and vice versa - just maybe not as often as they would otherwise.

 

[iturnknobs]

IMO it is unseemly to take pleasure in anybody's death.

JR

A few towns west of me, a barber shop had a sign in the window. It read,"Mask Not Allowed". That barber died just recently. This is the definition of Darwinism. I take no pleasure in his death, but I am relieved that this type of messaging has been reduced for the benefit of all people. I take relief in the fact that there is one less vote supporting stupidity. I also take some relief in the fact that 99% of all covid deaths were unvaccinated in the month of June. As I have said multiple times, pain is the only thing that brings real change. I can't change that, but all here must know that I would if I could.

I recall the current administration casting shade on the covid vaccine, even while jumping to the front of the line to get vaccinated themselves even before they were inaugurated.

JR

I do not recall the current administration casting shade on the covid vaccine. I do recall many Democrats expressing doubt and disbelief in Donald Trump. He lied about the seriousness of the impending pandemic to better his chances of re-election. He pushed HQC as an all encompassing therapeutic (which it clearly was not, dangerous for many, in fact). DJT made so many untruthful statements that I was not going to take the vaccine if he was in office, until data supported its safety(which it does now). It was clear that his only concern was his self-preservation(hence, THE BIG LIE). If any party is to receive the branding of mixed messaging, it would be the anti-science Republicans. The fools are reacting to the chumming of the waters by fools like Boebert, Taylor, Hawley, Jordan, R. Paul, Cawthorn, Gaetz, R. Johnson, etc. I can provide hundreds, if not thousands of links to support this claim.

If vaccines work, why wear masks (hypothetical, I am not trying to trigger more trolling).

JR

This is not trolling, but science. You are one of the smartest(techincally) members of this forum, yet you parrot the headlines from right-wing media. This confounds me. You must know that the vaccines work against the spread of the current strains of the virus and further spread allows new variants which render current vaccines less effective or ineffective. That is why. Please spread this scientific information, which I know you know is true, to anyone you know...especially Fox News watching Republicans...or Sinclair outlets, etc. Please never post this "hypothetical" question on the internet again. It empowers idiots who choose not to read and think this whole thing is about their freedom and/or government control. IT IS NOT. Help get our country vaccinated before it's too late...but it's already looking bad, and not because of people/voters like myself.

 

[JohnRoberts]

This is what I tried to avoid.

I repeat, taking pleasure (or relief) at someones death is unseemly with the possible exception of Osama Bin Laden.

Do not expect me to take instructions from you about what I can or can not say.

Consider the possibility that my knowledge extends beyond electronics, while I do prefer the objective nature of electronics that makes it so much easier to win arguments.

I hope you do not take relief when I pass, but at that point I won't care.

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

This is what I tried to avoid.

JR

It seems to me that you want to make a jab and then put in a disclaimer to avoid dealing with a retort.

I repeat, taking pleasure (or relief) at someones death is unseemly with the possible exception of Osama Bin Laden.

JR

I cannot express remorse for anyone that willingly goes against logic and others in the name of selfishness, even Osama Bin Laden. Spoken like a true tribalist. Ever consider that may never had happened except for politics driven by big oil? Stupidity and selfishness from the capitalists. Sound familiar?

Do not expect me to take instructions from you about what I can or can not say.

JR

I asked , "Please never" in the best interests of society. I did not dictate. You are well aware of the divisiveness of your "innocent" question that you ASKED people to not respond to. In your words, "Do not expect me to take instructions from you about what I can or can not say."

I hope you do not take relief when I pass, but at that point I won't care.

JR

I will not take relief in your passing. I will take relief in a collective generation fading away as generations do, so that society may start to help itself more than it currently does. Human advances throughout history have primarily taken place because of cooperation. Many of your viewpoints have forward hints of selfish overtones with a heaping dash of separatist conspiracy. These things do not work together. I'm not telling you, I asking you...please encourage your neighbors and acquaintances in your minimally vaccinated state to get the vaccine. It even helps out the capitalists. It's the most "pro-life" thing you can do. I care that you do what you can for others while you're still here...NOT AMERICA FIRST. We are all in this together.

 

[JohnRoberts]

This thread was started to discuss "covid politics", you chose to make it personal. I understand how trolling works.

Insert old joke about wrestling with pigs in the mud....(no I am not calling you a pig).

JR